Original colors for a Miller's Falls 16-1/2 Mitre Box (Pre 1917?)

[Niels Cosman]

I just scored a nice little 16-1/2 MF Mitre Box. I am curious what the original color scheme would have been.

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/ncosman/library/Millers%20Falls%2016_5%20Mitre%20Box

I haven't begun to clean it up but the cast iron sections appear to perhaps have some black paint and the wooden platform is painted green (although this could be a replacement).
I am not entirely sure when this box dates probably pre 1917 (based on the Disston medallion)
I have seen more recent 16-1/2's painted the standard Red and Black, however I have also seen early large Langton's that were painted black with the green wooden platforms.

Anybody have any ideas?

[Derek Cohen]

Niels, I saw that one on eBay. I thought the price decent bearing in mind it came with a saw.

Here is my #15 1/2 pre-rebuild ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/saws/MF%20115%20Restoration/1a_zpsp5afxgaf.jpg

I am unconcerned about originality in my rebuild (hence not "restoration"). The original is quite drab - I hate to say it, but yours looks the correct colours. I have made a few small changes - nothing that cannot be returned to original. I am finishing up building a saw, and then will post it all.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Niels Cosman]

Derek,

I suspect I'll end up gussying this little box far beyond original spec, but I am still interested in what is "correct" as a point of reference.

I have been inspecting it more thoroughly and I now believe that the castings may not have been painted at all. It made have been coated with some sort of protective lacquer that has since gone yellow giving the metal parts a brownish appearance (there is almost no rust). This is evident from continuity of the finish underneath the paper sticker. The green paint of the wooden platform is also is carried under the abrasive (which appears to have been applied directly to the paint). I believe this is the correct, original color scheme.

I have a ~1887-1905 Langdon Adjustable and a New Langdon Improved that I haven't touched yet. They both have green parts (although they look almost black now). I believe the 16.5 is newer 5-10 years newer than those, but before they switched to red and black (as with yours). Your box is a later variant, with the more sophisticated guide stops and the more robust feet castings.

The saw is in fine shape, the plate will need to be scraped, but the teeth are in good shape. Although I am thinking about replacing the saw plate with a blade with 2-1/8 under the back or save a whole bunch of huffing and puffing and simply ordering a replacement from LN or Bad Axe. This saw has 1-7/8 and might just be able to take a full cut if I removed the depth gauges. Replacing the platform with a thicker piece would also solve that issue.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Niels

Here is more information. First;y, the difference between my #15 1/2 and your #16 1/2 lies is the depth stop and depth of cut, otherwise they are the same size ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/saws/MF%20115%20Restoration/MF-mitre-box1_zps9hr2opwk.jpg

Link for above: https://plus.google.com/photos/111365534511747187348/albums/5675711642455097921/5675711650692523154?pid=5675711650692523154&oid=111365534511747187348

Here is a link to a slide show for the #15 1/2, which has colour shots ..

https://sites.google.com/site/langdonmitreboxes/home/gallery/millers-falls/langdon/-15-1-2

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Niels Cosman]

Hi Niels

Here is more information. First;y, the difference between my #15 1/2 and your #16 1/2 lies is the depth stop and depth of cut, otherwise they are the same size ...

Derek

Yes that is the difference between a 15-1/2 and a 16-1/2 in later models. However, I am referring to differences between earlier and later models. These differences can be seen in the thickness and style of castings.
Here is a picture of the feet castings 16-1/2 that is the same vintage as yours along side mine.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v628/ncosman/Millers%20Falls%2016_5%20Mitre%20Box/leg%20castings_zps61drt690.jpg

My 1880's Langdon also has a similar style of feet. These feet are often found damaged or repaired, hence the beefed up castings in later models.

[Josh Salomon]

Just wanted to add a little bit to this thread. I have managed to acquire one 16-1/2 and a couple of 15-1/2 mitre boxes over the last few years. Here are a couple of pics of the 16-1/2 side-by-side with a 15-1/2 (these are coming in upside down for some reason, but I am hoping that this is my bug and not the way the render).

320506320505


As it turns out, the difference between the two is not only in the depth of cut. The 16-1/2 is different in every dimension other than width (12 inches); the casting appears to be different (shorter, a little less thick in parts); and the saw risers are also different in size. The legs are different in the ways that your pictures above have indicated. All of the 15-1/2 boxes I have seen have had the edges of the bed painted red. My 16-1/2, like yours, has a green edge. So, I am not sure whether the differences have to do with changes over time, or differences between the two models. I am starting to suspect that the latter is really driving these.

(On a side note - my 16-1/2 is missing the removable height stops for the two arms. Would you be willing to share some of the specs and dimensions for these, and any pics that can help? I am thinking of getting these parts 3D printed. Thanks!)

-Josh

[Niels Cosman]

Hi Josh,
It that's very interesting and a nice addition to the puzzle.
Hopefully someone with a red/black 16-1/2 will emerge for comparison.
Also the early MF catalogs have seen have the 15 and 16 listed, but I haven't seen one with an image of the smaller models other than the one that Derek posted above. Maybe someone's out there with a reprint that can shine some light.

Also let me know which parts you need dimensions for, I'd be happy to help.
It would be easy enough to slap together a cad model/drawing for you.

[Josh Salomon]

Hi Josh,
It that's very interesting and a nice addition to the puzzle.
Hopefully someone with a red/black 16-1/2 will emerge for comparison.
Also the early MF catalogs have seen have the 15 and 16 listed, but I haven't seen one with an image of the smaller models other than the one that Derek posted above. Maybe someone's out there with a reprint that can shine some light.

Also let me know which parts you need dimensions for, I'd be happy to help.
It would be easy enough to slap together a cad model/drawing for you.


Agree there seems to be little if any information that describes changes in the design or differences between the models. The only document I've seen is the one that Derek posted. And before your post mine was the only 16-1/2 I'd seen (and didn't have the saw). I like a good puzzle!

Thanks for the offer to help me spec out the parts - that's a great help! I am missing the depth stops, as shown in this picture from your feed:

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/ncosman/media/Millers%20Falls%2016_5%20Mitre%20Box/IMG_2259_zpsbg45o7nc.jpg.html?sort=3&o=22

Any details you can provide would be much appreciated. Thinking of trying out shapeways for 3D printing. Anybody out there have any experience with this sort of thing?

[Niels Cosman]

Any details you can provide would be much appreciated. Thinking of trying out shapeways for 3D printing. Anybody out there have any experience with this sort of thing?

Hey Josh,
I'll make a drawing this afternoon/evening. You could shapeways it, but it could easily be made with some basic metal working tools ( file, vise, drill, files, maybe a dremel). If there was any part that you would need to replace it or repair, that one would be the most straightforward.

[Josh Salomon]

Hey Josh,
I'll make a drawing this afternoon/evening. You could shapeways it, but it could easily be made with some basic metal working tools ( file, vise, drill, files, maybe a dremel). If there was any part that you would need to replace it or repair, that one would be the most straightforward.


Hi Niels - Thanks! You are right that this would be the one piece that would be easiest to replicate by hand. I've just got no experience with metal working and so a little intimidated by it. Shapeways seems pretty affordable for stainless steel parts so I was intrigued ...

No bites yet on the miter box mystery. Hmm.

[Niels Cosman]

Hi Josh,

Here are two drawings for the front and rear depth stops. The rear depth stop has a slightly different profile at the top. At first I thought this was damaged, but the original paint/coating is intact. The front stop fits the rear guide holder without any interference.
It wont allow me to upload the 3D file, but if you PM your email I can send it to you.

I saved the 3D part as .SLDPRT (solidworks part) if you need another format for shapeways or .drw/.dxf files I can easily resave. The modified rear feature is saved as configuration called "Rear" in the part file.

Cheers!

[Josh Salomon]

Niels - Wow! Thank you so much for these! I wish I knew how to do this. I need to carve out some time to learn. I appreciate all of the time you put into these models. I'm afraid I don't know anything about 3D file types, but here is what I found on shapeways:

Shapeways accepts designs in STL, OBJ, X3D, DAE, Collada or VRML97/2 (WRL)

If it is not too much trouble, I'd really be grateful if you're able to send me the models in one of these formats. Again - thanks for all of your effort on this - really appreciated.

Regarding the different shape, I notice that the attachment point for the rear holder is nearer to the back of the holder than on the front one, so I suspect that you are right - the shape must be deliberate in order to allow the saw to clear the slot.

Now, some news from my side: check out the attached pics to see what arrived in the mail today. I thought I was ordering a parts box for my existing 15-1/2 (because this is missing the risers altogether, and the saw has no handle.) But as it turns out this is another small / green / 2" capacity box. Yes, another 16-1/2 with the same features as yours (and mine). The other thing the pic makes me realize is that the 16-1/2 box I already had differs from the other ones I've seen in that it only has two detents for cutting at 90 and 45 degrees, whereas all of the others accommodate more angles. So, we get some more confirmation that the color and size seem to go together, plus a slight variant to add to the puzzle.

320714320715

[Niels Cosman]

Hey Josh,
No worries, it's no trouble, it's basically what I do all day long.

That's totally cool about another variant! I guess if you are going to want only two angles 90 and 45 are the ones you'd want. It's curious that they didn't have a second 45 detent on right side.
Is the locking mechanism otherwise the same?

[Josh Salomon]

Hey Josh,
No worries, it's no trouble, it's basically what I do all day long.

That's totally cool about another variant! I guess if you are going to want only two angles 90 and 45 are the ones you'd want. It's curious that they didn't have a second 45 detent on right side.
Is the locking mechanism otherwise the same?

The locking mechanism appears to be the same. If you look closely at the MF catalog image, the miter box in the picture has only these two notches cut, but the text says that notches are cut at the most common angles ...