Tough, yet natural varnish or urethance over shellac on cherry

[Justin Goeden]

Looking for some advice on how to finish 2 cherry pieces that I'm making for a customer. Been doing tons and tons of reading and probably just confusing myself more in the process than learning.

I've decided that I want to use some shellac as a sealer, but also to help with the natural chatanoyance (sp?) that it brings to cherry. I think I want to use one or two layers of dewaxed garnet shellac at a 1lb cut. Then followed up by some super blonde dewaxed shellac to help build layers and warm up the colors. But on top of that I need a super tough finish that will hold up to a daycare setting, but let the wood remain beautiful looking and not like plastic. Is this possible to have those two qualities?

Through my reading I think I've come down to using P&L 38, or Behlen Rockhard. It seems like both are hard to find, but I haven't looked too hard yet.

I have minimal experience with French Polishing technique. My son's bedroom furniture was finished with a 1:1:1 of Cabot Spar varnish, mineral spirits, and BLO. Turned out pristine, IMO. I didn't know at that point about using shellac as a sealer, so it took about 7-8 coats to build a layer, but it was worth it.

Will my shellac help me finish with less coats of varnish this time? Will either of these varnishes suit my needs? I really want to avoid wiping on some cheap poly. Also, on the blonde shellac, should I cut it at 1lb or 2lb since it's going over a layer or two of the garnet at 1lb.? I've never used shellac.

Thanks for all the help and time. And, yes, I plan on using lots of scrap pieces first!!!

[Kent A Bathurst]

Your varnish choices will help you finish with less coats, v the 1:1:1 home brew. That is not a "film-buliding" finish like the varnish, in terms of how fast it builds.

If the shellac is there only to reduce varnish coats, then I'd skip it.

I always seal with 2 coats of 1# super/extra blonde/pale shellac, then the varnish.

Sounds like you want the look that garnet has on cherry - never tried that, but would be an interesting experiment. If that's it, then use the garnet as the sealer.

The best shellac finish is the thinnest film. You can put on the 4 coats a you described - I'd use 1# for all - but it is not necessary, unless that gets you the look you want.

You did not say how you are going to apply the shellac?

Behlen's has kind of faded from the marketplace, starting with their reformulation to urethane some years back. Have you looked at the Waterlox? It is similar in appearance, but a bit more amber.

[Jerry Olexa]

Your two choices are good ones...#38 hard to find....shellac really doesn't "build up" a finish. One or 2 coats is enough...Padding it on will get you close to french polish..you can control the amount of gloss or lustre you want when you pad/blend....DA becomes both a solvent and a lubricant..Test on scraps first..G'Luck. You'll do fine...

[Prashun Patel]

recently, i have read about issues people have with Behlens or P&L 38. This may be due to revised formulations. Never used either, so cannot vouch. Just look into that.

I CAN vouch heartily for Waterlox Original Sealer Finish. You can still get the 'original formulation' not the 'voc compliant' one (which people have also complained about).

I think sealing cherry with shellac is a respectable thing to do. However, it's unnecessary to do more than one or two coats. If you varnish, there's no benefit to building shellac to a sheeny layer. In fact, I find it best to put on a couple coats at 1.5# and then sand with 400g to get it really smooth, and THEN to start varnishing.

As for chatoyance, using straight varnish (oil based) will have the same effect as shellac. So, there's no benefit here.

As for color, Waterlox is dark, and your cherry will darken with time anyway. Some cherry darkens to rusty brown red, some darkens to deep orange gold. So, whatever color you apply with shellac is a moving target anyway. Not to dissuade you from using garnet, just saying you may find as have I that the choice of shellac color is moot after a couple months.

IMHO the real key to finishing cherry very well is to sand and prep it well before the first coat goes on. Many advise stopping at 220, but if you're not staining or dyeing the wood, i urge you to try to go to 400 or 600 before putting on shellac or varnish, and LMK how it feels and how even those first couple coats go on.

[David Hawxhurst]

i like waterlox on cherry. i will usually go out of my way to use waterlox on cherry.
i have used garnet shellac on cherry for the color it adds, but i still like the color waterlox makes cherry better.
P&L 38 is still around. if you go to their website they have a store locator function.

[Justin Goeden]

All, thanks for the amazing advice and tips. No I hadn't looked into the Waterlox, are you saying just the "1910 original sealer". Is it just a varnish like others, so cut in half with MS and wipe on/off/wet sand? I will definitely look into it. It's tough, right?!? I think I have been leaning toward the P&L, but not 100% convinced yet, will read up on the Waterlox.

The garnet shellac was just an idea, I've seen a few pics online and they looked neat. DEFINITELY testing many many scrap pieces first. I may not even use the garnet if it doesn't look good.
Thanks for telling me shellac doesn't build too much, I'll just seal with a few coats.

As far as shellac application, really didn't read too much about that yet. I just assumed that I would wipe on and off. Maybe that's not the best way, but I'll be reading first.

Prashun, thanks for the tips on sanding. I had planned on 220, maybe even in the 300s, but I'll definitely go up to 600 if you feel that's what I need. I've never finished cherry, so I"m really open and appreciative of all your advice!!

Thanks a million guys, reading is good, but sometimes (a lot actually) of direct conversation is better!!

[Prashun Patel]

http://www.waterlox.com/products-item/waterlox-original-penetrating-tung-oil-floor-sealer-finish.aspx

I like TB5284, NOT 6038. Waterlox is confusing:

All of their varnishes are called "Waterlox Original".

However the "Sealer Finish" (5284) is thinned already in a solvent similar to Mineral spirits, so you don't need to thin it further.

Then they made a VOC compliant formula with a different solvent (6038).

Both are called "Waterlox Original Sealer Finish", but the 5284 is further delineated as "Original Formula".

The 6038, while VOC compliant, does not apply as swirl-free for me as does the 5284.

I find that both like a completely dry surface, so don't go wiping down your surface with mineral spirits and then 2 mins later trying to apply either product. You have to wait for it to evaporate completely else you risk swirls.

The OSF is tough. I have it on several pieces including a bar top and I am very impressed. It stands up to abrasion very well for me. That being said, if you want it tough as nails, be prepared to put on many coats in order to build a thick film. I have Waterlox on a mudroom bench that I did not build up thick. Like any thin film, it will show wear. But on my bar top (which was brushed) it has not suffered (5 years out).

[Kent A Bathurst]

As far as shellac application, really didn't read too much about that yet. I just assumed that I would wipe on and off.


No, you won't!!! ;) Read on, and get back with any questions.

[John TenEyck]

What are the pieces you are finishing? Tables, cabinets? Hard use, decorative? I would not go to the effort of using Waterlox unless I really liked the stuff or required that leave of durability and was willing to apply the number of coats required to get it. Frankly, I'm not sure the durability is any better than some waterborne finishes, which are much easier to apply and look just as good to me. These are some cherry veneer cabinets I made, finished with brown mahogany Transtint dye followed by GF's EnduroVar:

320372 320373

They look great to me. The entire finishing process took 2 days.

John

[Justin Goeden]

Prashun,
Thanks for the clarification!! The only thing I'm not sure about is the tung oil finish. I ran some 1:1 tung oil: MS on a project scrap and I didn't really like the color it gave me with my particular lot of wood. Maybe Waterlox would look different. But I will definitely keep it in mind if the garnet shellac isn't giving me the color/pop I want.

Kent, I had read something where the author would flood the wood with shellac and wipe off shortly after letting it penetrate. But I've seen a lot of people brush it on.

What is your preference? Wipe or brush? I think I want to wipe because I don't want brush marks, but is shellac so thin that there's not much of a layer to even leave brush marks? Any certiain types of brushes needed, or just a nice stain brush?

[Kent A Bathurst]

OK - I'll try for the short version.

I never heard about the flood-and-wipe scheme. Sounds curious - but I won't be trying it.

I use padding cloth. Go to Homestead finishing, look for the articles, and rummage around a bit an you will find one on shellac.

Padding cloth, with DNA on it, squirt on shellac - damp, not dripping, swoop down like a plane landing a bout 2" past eh edge through to the other end, come back swoop down for that last 2" bit.

Move over and repeat. Recharge with shellac as needed.

Never-never-never go back over a place you have already been - the shellac will have started to tack up already, and you will create a nightmare.

1# - 2# cut

For a brush - again - Homestead - Brushes - Golden Taklon

Shellac acts like nothing else when applying it, mainly because you are going on thin, and the dna solvent flashes off so fast.......

The padding cloth works wonders, IMO for a great seal coat - I do two coats, 1# cut, then a very very light scuff sanding with 400g - 3M 216 or Norton 3X.

[Justin Goeden]

Fantastic advice Kent, I really appreciate your time.

I just cut my first 2 batches of shellac, very excited. I just did a 1lb cut of each and I’ll try different combos.

I think I may order a qt of the P&L but it’s so scarce nowadays, no shops in the area can get it and I can only find 1 place online to buy it. I just don’t want to get used to a product that will get yanked in my near future.

So I’ll try a quart of that on this project and see how it goes. I saw some well-regarded advice on trying out Sherwin & Williams alkyd varnish, it uses BLO instead of Tung oil. The thing about the waterlox that people have recommended is it uses Tung oil,which I didn’t like the look on this cherry that I’m using.

[Scott Holmes]

Justin,

BLO or Tung oil in VARNISH is completely different than using BLO or Tung oil and MS as an oil finish.

Varnish made with BLO will yellow more than varnish made from Tung oil. Varnish made from Tung oil will be more waterproof (none are completely waterproof) than varnish made from Soya oil or linseed oil. Once it's VARNISH the oil is now part of the new molecule we call varnish it not oil and varnish as with the oil/varnish blends. AKA Danish Oils.

P&L #38 is an alkyd resin/soya oil varnish
SW Classic oil varnish is an alkyd resin/linseed oil varnish
Waterlox is a phenolic resin/Tung oil varnish

FYI SW classic doesn't like to be wiped with MS within a day or so of application

Wipe-on Wipe-off is the technique for applying an oil/varnish BLEND or an oil only finish; not for applying varnish or shellac ...

[Kent A Bathurst]

Justin -

I refer to Scott as Obi-Wan Holmes for a reason.

Go against his advice at your peril.

Any muddling success I have at finishing is due to him.

[Howard Acheson]

The first thing you must understand is that shellac is not a finish you can "build" like you would other finishes. Applying an additional coat on shellac onto an already shellaced surfave will melt the lower finish resulting in the color being a mixture of the two different shellacs.

Second is that applying a coat of varnish over a coat of shellac will not result in maintaining the clairvoyance of just a shellac finish. The resulting "look" will be basically the same as if you only applied the varnish without the preliminary shellac. In other words you can not maintain the look of shellac. As soon as you apply your varnish, the result will look like a varnish finish.

You mention that you plan previewing your finishes. That's the best solution. That way you"ll see how things work and wont have any surprises.

[Andrew Helman]

Justin, I've had some issues applying P&L 38, and, in case you run into any of my comments about it on the forum, thought it worth noting that I think most of the issues I had were due to inexperience on my part. I'm getting close to wrapping up one table with it and seemed to have found a way to make it work for me (though I am probably a wiped on coat away from being done), as follows:

1. Cut the P&L about 15-20% with true mineral spirits (not the odorless stuff) and brushed it on with a Redtree fake badger brush from Rockler ($36). Scott and Kent would probably suggest a brush from Grammercy Tools, and I defer to them because they know more about this. The Redtree has been pretty good, but I have had some air bubbles, even with the thinnest brushed on coats and following Scott's instructions in his video. 2. Sanded as needed in between coats to get rid of dust or air bubbles. 3. After two brushed on coats, I'm wiping it on for my final coats. I've cut it 50% with true mineral spirits (I had bad luck with the odorless stuff, but there were other variables) and am using Viva paper towels as an applicator with all the excess wrung out. I'm applying it extremely thin; I had orange peel on my test run on the underneath when I'd wiped it on too thick, didn't wait enough between coats, and used odorless MS (one of many variables).

All in all, the P&L is fantastic looking. Here's a link to a test I did to determine how dark a few varnishes would be on my slab of maple; Waterlox O/S (left), P&L, and General Arm-R-Seal. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3OewcC540fkR2IwcUlQdS1MVzg/view?usp=sharing

You can get P&L 38 at Pond Cove Paint (www.pondcovepaint.com); it happens to be around the corner from my office, but I know that they ship and are happy to do so.

Thanks,
Andrew