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ryan paulsen
08-26-2015, 9:19 AM
We are building a house, and code in our area requires GFI breakers for bedrooms. Our electrician says they are nothing but problems, and suggests installing them to pass inspection, and replace with standard breakers after. Is this a common problem, or a red flag? I am not well versed in all things electrical, so feel free to ask "stupid questions" instead of assuming anything on my part.

Thanks!

Mike Cutler
08-26-2015, 9:25 AM
GFCI's, or AFCI's ?

GFCI's are pretty rugged little devices. I don't know why the electrician would have an issue installing them. The AFCI's were problematic for the first few years, and aren't completely compatible with some appliances.( I'm assuming they're panel breakers.)

Wade Lippman
08-26-2015, 10:52 AM
Yes, he said AFCIs. (or he is grossly ignorant) I have 5 AFCIs in my house. One has tripped twice for no discernible reason in the 4 years I've lived here, but that isn't a huge problem. And mine are 10 years old; presumably the newer ones are better.

I'd be looking for another electrician.

Brian Elfert
08-26-2015, 11:08 AM
I have arc faults in my house and I have had only one trip to date. Changing the speed on the ceiling fan controller is what I think caused it to trip. I am pretty sure the circuit was not overloaded. I just make sure to turn the fan off before changing speeds now.

Bob Coleman
08-26-2015, 12:31 PM
If I recall correctly, the 2005 NEC was when the change was added to require AFCI (arc fault) protection for bedrooms. Basically the device senses a change in the "shape" of the neutral current compared to the hot side current and makes a decision if that was due to a dangerous arcing condition.


Regardless, if anyone working for me advised to install a safety device and remove it after the inspection, they'd be fired.

Brian Elfert
08-26-2015, 7:18 PM
2014 NEC now requires AFCI protection on almost every circuit in a house with a few exceptions. Technically, to meet code, you have to install arc fault if you so much as change a receptacle. (Not that hardly anyone will comply if doing it themselves.)

I had to upgrade all of my circuits to AFCI during a re-wire and I spent probably $400 on AFCI breakers. (Minnesota switched to 2014 NEC on July 1, 2014.)

Julie Moriarty
08-26-2015, 7:50 PM
Years ago GFI receptacles (that was before they were called "GFCI") were absolutely a problem. Today they are better but still fail, often without anyone knowing they have failed to protect as intended. They seem to work fine until you test them then you find they won't trip. They were intended to sense minor current flow that might occur when (for an example) someone with wet hands and grounded to a kitchen sink became one with the current in an electrical appliance. They were intended to be used where a wet condition might exist - kitchens, bathrooms, garages and outdoors.

When they fail, you can learn to hate them. If you installed them and get a service call to replace them, you can come to see them as nothing but a problem. So I get where your electrician is coming from. I never had a good thing to say about them until I stopped doing residential work and worked only on commercial projects. But they are better made today and I have heard they do work but haven't witnessed it myself.

John Lohmann
08-26-2015, 9:18 PM
I bought a new house last year, I think it had all AFCI's, they were tripping left & right. I called the builder, he sent the electrican, changed them all under a recall. It's a Siemens box

Wade Lippman
08-27-2015, 9:42 AM
2014 NEC now requires AFCI protection on almost every circuit in a house with a few exceptions. Technically, to meet code, you have to install arc fault if you so much as change a receptacle. (Not that hardly anyone will comply if doing it themselves.)


I am adding a outlet to a circuit. Would I have to make the outlet AFCI, the circuit, or the entire house to comply with 2014?

Kinda academic, as NY is still on 2008.

Circuits that used to be GFCI, do they now have to be GFCI/AFCI or is AFCI adequate?

roger wiegand
08-27-2015, 10:14 AM
I don't think there is any change to GFCI requirements. GFCI and AFCI do different things and don't substitute for each other. GFCI protects you from electrocution, AFCI protects your building from burning down. We got AFCI breakers when we remodeled and built our addition, the nuisance trips were a PITA for the first year or so, they have greatly diminished for no apparent reason since then.

Lee Schierer
08-27-2015, 1:59 PM
Personally, I would not follow the advice of that electrician and would seriously consider getting a different one to complete the job. If he works for a company, I might even speak with his supervisor about it. I would much rather put up with some nuisance trips that need a circuit to trip when something really goes wrong and have it stay live resulting in an injury or worse.

Jerome Stanek
08-27-2015, 2:05 PM
Nuisance trips like when your gone and your freezer or refrigerator trips and spoils all the food. My SIL needs an oxygen concentrator and can not get to the panel to re set it so what would she do.

Brian Elfert
08-27-2015, 3:54 PM
I am adding a outlet to a circuit. Would I have to make the outlet AFCI, the circuit, or the entire house to comply with 2014?

Kinda academic, as NY is still on 2008.

Circuits that used to be GFCI, do they now have to be GFCI/AFCI or is AFCI adequate?

Only the circuit you touch would need to be upgraded. If you are doing it yourself I would not put in an AFCI breaker. Kitchens now need both GFI and AFCI. It appears bathrooms are exempt from AFCI, but ask your electrical inspector to be sure.

Here is something about residential circuits and the 2014 NEC: "NEC 210.12 All branch circuits supplying 125-volt, 15 and 20 amp outlets or devices in dwelling unit kitchens, family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation rooms, laundry areas, closets, hallways, or similar areas shall be protected by a listed combination type AFCI device. AFCI protection is also required where branch circuit wiring in the above locations is modified, replaced or extended."

Wade Lippman
08-27-2015, 4:50 PM
Only the circuit you touch would need to be upgraded. If you are doing it yourself I would not put in an AFCI breaker. Kitchens now need both GFI and AFCI. It appears bathrooms are exempt from AFCI, but ask your electrical inspector to be sure.

Here is something about residential circuits and the 2014 NEC: "NEC 210.12 All branch circuits supplying 125-volt, 15 and 20 amp outlets or devices in dwelling unit kitchens, family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation rooms, laundry areas, closets, hallways, or similar areas shall be protected by a listed combination type AFCI device. AFCI protection is also required where branch circuit wiring in the above locations is modified, replaced or extended."

My AFCI breakers require two slots. If they still do, then panel boxes have to be twice as big now. Is that right?

My new outlet is in an unfinished basement. It requires a GFCI, but would not need a AFCI according to your list. Is that right?

Brian Elfert
08-28-2015, 11:52 AM
My AFCI breakers require two slots. If they still do, then panel boxes have to be twice as big now. Is that right?

My new outlet is in an unfinished basement. It requires a GFCI, but would not need a AFCI according to your list. Is that right?

I am not an electrician. I am just a DIY guy who did research when I rewired my house last year. My AFCI breakers take a single slot. I would talk to your local electrical inspector about requirements for a basement. You will probably have to do both AFCI and GFI.

ryan paulsen
08-29-2015, 8:35 PM
Thanks all for the advice. Yes, these are AFCI breakers, i spoke incorrectly. They only take one slot. We haven't had problems with nuisance trips, so we'll cross that bridge if we get there. Good to hear that early problems with these devises may have been corrected.