Customer service advice...

[Joshua Fishbein]

Been moving towards integrating some hand tools into my work (currently working on shaping a guitar neck), which has led me to make a few purchases recently. One of these purchases was a new spokeshave from a premium company. Now, along with a couple chisels and a set of card scrapers, this was my first premium purchase (I have a few older tools inherited from family and such).

The spokeshave looks perfect. It really felt solid and is just a beautiful tool. However, looking over this well crafted instrument it was suddenly difficult not to notice a small chip on the trailing side of the mouth opening. Yes, I admit that it is a small defect, but a defect nonetheless.

Thinking about how I felt about it, I ended up with the thought that I was a little bit unhappy about it. Even if it will get scratched up and used, I like to be the one who adds the "character" to my new things.

I'm typically of the mindset that whether you pay five dollars or five hundred, you should not settle for a lesser product (of course expectations are usually higher the more we spend). For example, you don't go to the grocery store, buy a carton of eggs, then say that it's okay if one of the eggs are cracked because you only paid a buck fifty for it. Certainly not. You go back and make sure you get one where each one is perfect. But I was willing to not be this way over this tool that I just spent north of a hundred bucks on, if, and only if, the company told me that it was within there QC tolerances and was a typical thing.

So, I contacted the company and sent a couple photos. The rep for the company responded saying that "What [I] have there is fairly obviously a casting defect," and "not sure how it escaped without notice."

The rep followed up by letting me know they would facilitate an exchange if I was willing to ship it back at my expense. That is where I have the issue. I have no problem covering the charge to ship it back to them, but for me it is certainly more the point, especially since it was admittedly something that should have been caught and remedied in house before it ever left.

I do admit that my wife had a little bit to do with starting this fire. I would have just paid the shipping back for the exchange without worrying about it.

Should I be bothered? Would it bother you if you just spent the money for a premium tool and get told that you can file it or pay to have it fixed? What do you guys think? Anyone else been lucky enough to end up in a similar situation?

P.S: long time lurker, short time member, first time posting...

[Andrew Gold]

I think what you're asking for is very reasonable, and assume if you either reached back out to the rep or escalated the complaint they would take care of you.

I presume the business model of these companies (like most) is a happy customer results in more business...

[Frederick Skelly]

First and foremost, welcome Joshua! We're glad to have you posting with us!

Yes, I would want the tool replaced. Absolutely! You paid for a First, not a Second.

Yes, I think they should reimburse you for shipping since it is a manufacturing defect.

I've returned things to both Lee Valley and Lie Nielson. I know that LV reimbursed my shipping both ways, even though it was MY mistake (wrong part #). I THINK I remember that LN did too, when my plane iron arrived damaged.

What I'd do in your case would depend on how much I like/need/want that spokeshave and how much it costs me to ship it back. Another factor is that even if you decide to request a refund, you're going to pay to ship it back anyway and I'm guessing they won't refund your shipping. So I'd try to renegotiate - perhaps ask for a manager. If no luck, I'd either use as-is (which I'd personally HATE) or I'd pay the return shipping to get a replacement and then do no more business with them (if the matter bothered me a lot).

A final idea: you could try to negotiate a price reduction if you're willing to keep the tool as-is. Again, you paid for a First Quality tool and got a Second.

Good luck. Please let us know how it turns out.
Fred

[Ray Bohn]

I would put some effort into obtaining free shipping. It is the correct behavior for a high end/high$ manufacturer. If they fail to respond favorably, I hope you will let us know the culprit's name.

Veritas includes a postage paid return label with every order that is placed.

[Jim Koepke]

Joshua,

Welcome to the Creek. Your profile doesn't include your location. Are you in the same country or even continent as the dealer?

It seems every time an order of mine arrives from Lee Valley there is a return postage sticker included.

It seems the vendor in your case is not as committed with keeping customers happy.

If you like the tool and want the tool, then you may have to pay the freight. You might try talking to a manager who has the authority to make this situation to your satisfaction.

Especially in today's business environment a vendor doesn't want to leave a customer with a bad experience to share on the internet.

jtk

[Phil Thien]

I wouldn't go to war over a few bucks, I'd just pay the freight.

[Paul Sidener]

If it was unused, I would just return it to where I bought it from. If they didn't want to pay for the return shipping, tell them you want a refund. At that point, they will usually cave and pay the shipping. They won't want to loose the sale over the cost of shipping. At least a well run company won't. You don't need to get upset over it, point out you can get another one elsewhere.

If you used it before you noticed the chip, it gets more difficult.

[Simon MacGowen]

I wouldn't go to war over a few bucks, I'd just pay the freight.

The OP is definitely not trying to start a war. I found his desire for free freight absolutely reasonable and correct. You said you'd just pay the freight, you are generous. I wouldn't in such circumstances and principles are principles in my book. We support Lee Valley and the like who offer second-to-none customer service and policy and other players should look to them for guidance.

Simon

[Kent A Bathurst]

Question: Did the OP purchase from a retailer, or direct from the manufacturer?

[Joshua Fishbein]

I purchased direct from the manufacturer.

[Joshua Fishbein]

Updated that info.

Im in Florida and the product hails from another one of the 48 contiguous states.


Joshua,

Welcome to the Creek. Your profile doesn't include your location. Are you in the same country or even continent as the dealer?

It seems every time an order of mine arrives from Lee Valley there is a return postage sticker included.

It seems the vendor in your case is not as committed with keeping customers happy.

If you like the tool and want the tool, then you may have to pay the freight. You might try talking to a manager who has the authority to make this situation to your satisfaction.

Especially in today's business environment a vendor doesn't want to leave a customer with a bad experience to share on the internet.

jtk

[Kent A Bathurst]

I purchased direct from the manufacturer.

OK. No middle man.

If it is LV or LN, I am very much surprised. Actually, any of the top-tier guys.

I'm with you, BTW.

Did you ask for a replacement, or just for a return/refund? EDIT; Oooops - read OP again - you want a replacement.....Baloney.

If it is LV or LN, email Rob Lee or Tom L-N directly. If not, dunno the names.......

[Joe Bailey]

The answer should be obvious to anyone contemplating the situation.

But for the manufacturer's negligence, there would be no need to have a defective item shipped back.
The manufacturer should bear the cost of returning the defective unit and re-shipping the replacement unit.

[Mike Brady]

I would guess you got hold of an "empowered" customer service person who didn't really think this through. I just had a similar situation with the same company (come on, we all know). They immediately sent out a new part and never even mentioned returning the old one. I did send back the defective part because it was the right thing to do, and it was at my expense. The new part came with a zero invoice, so it is the same deal you are getting. You certainly should mention your displeasure if it is bothering you.

[Frederick Skelly]

I would guess you got hold of an "empowered" customer service person who didn't really think this through. I just had a similar situation with the same company (come on, we all know). They immediately sent out a new part and never even mentioned returning the old one. I did send back the defective part because it was the right thing to do, and it was at my expense. The new part came with a zero invoice, so it is the same deal you are getting. You certainly should mention your displeasure if it is bothering you.

+1. If this is who it now sounds like, they'll make it right. They WANT you happy.

[Brian Holcombe]

I had one do something similar to me when one of their tools broke on me. I waited until they came to a local trade show and brought the tool....amazing how quickly they are willing to work with you when their are other potential customers available to overhear it.

They had to mail a new one, but all of a sudden I was no longer required to mail mine at my expense first. In fact the salesman at the show told me to take it apart fix it and keep it as a spare (I sent it back).

I'll plug one that has been over the top excellent;

Blue Spruce was one of the best. I had a tool break, he replaced it without a run-around.

[Hilton Ralphs]

The answer should be obvious to anyone contemplating the situation.

But for the manufacturer's negligence, there would be no need to have a defective item shipped back.
The manufacturer should bear the cost of returning the defective unit and re-shipping the replacement unit.

Joe is correct. Everything went well until the supplier developed attitude and that's when I lose the plot completely. I accept mistakes and accidents happen but when I'm made to feel responsible for something I didn't do or forced to fork out more money for nothing then I get very woos. That's a South African word for effing angry and is pronounced with a 'V'.

Do the right thing and send them a polite email stating that returning an OOB failure is really their cost and not yours. If the attitude persists, send the stuff back at your costs and ask for a return and report back here. They will lose more in the end.

[Prashun Patel]

If you are talking about lee valley or lie Nielsen I can tell you that my experience with both has been that if it's their fault they pay shipping. If it's my fault they usually fix replace or refund for free but I pay shipping.

[Maurice Ungaro]

First of all, shame on you for being satisfied with the first CS person you spoke with. Of course, as you stated, your wife fanned the flames post facto. Regardless, I'd call the company back and go up the chain until you get the answer you are looking for. I don't know what company you are dealing with, and I'm not going to speculate either. Bottom line, if you are not happy, let them know, just be diplomatic when expressing yourself to them. You can catch more flies with honey than you can with vinegar.

[Phil Thien]

The OP is definitely not trying to start a war. I found his desire for free freight absolutely reasonable and correct. You said you'd just pay the freight, you are generous. I wouldn't in such circumstances and principles are principles in my book. We support Lee Valley and the like who offer second-to-none customer service and policy and other players should look to them for guidance.

Simon

I consider myself a principled person, but I'm not going to get my feathers ruffled over seven or eight dollars in shipping.

[bob blakeborough]

Also, consider that sometimes you may be getting a newer employee who is not quite as well versed yet and is confusing policy with, say, a consumer damaged tool or the like as opposed to a defect issue, and they are not giving you the accurate info. Sometimes just calling back and asking politely for management and kindly explaining your POV, it may be very easily resolvable, and definitely for a manufacturers defect, shipping should not be your responsibility if it was their quality control that allowed the visually defective product to get shipped...

[Mike Henderson]

If you are talking about lee valley or lie Nielsen I can tell you that my experience with both has been that if it's their fault they pay shipping. If it's my fault they usually fix replace or refund for free but I pay shipping.

That's been my experience, also. Both have excellent customer service.

Mike

[peter Joseph]

Sorry, I don't think its worth it for a few bucks. I'm no Donald Trump but my time is worth more than spending 15-20min chasing 5$.

[Simon MacGowen]

Sorry, I don't think its worth it for a few bucks. I'm no Donald Trump but my time is worth more than spending 15-20min chasing 5$.

It isn't really about money here. If we customers let a company push us around like that, we condone bad business practice and guess who is going to get hurt in the long run? It is about getting the employee (if he or she is not properly trained) or the employer to understand how a proper business transaction should begin and end.

Simon

[glenn bradley]

Firstly, WELCOME.
Secondly, the maker should pay ALL costs associated with their error. Failure on this principle loses me as a customer but, I openly and politely let them know this without question.

I think if you called back and stated that you do not feel right incurring shipping charges for their error, I bet they would say "oops, you're right!".

Thirdly,
It isn't really about money here.

Absolutely agree. It is incumbent on us to let retailers and manufacturers know that we want a good product for a fair price.

[Moses Yoder]

I don't really see how a miscast on the back of the mouth of a spokeshave would affect it's performance. The iron would still bed just fine and the shave would rest on the wood just fine. I don't see how the performance is affected. Maybe I am missing something? To me it seems like a superficial defect. In that regard I think asking you to pay return postage is reasonable; if you do not want a nicer one bad enough to pay the 8 dollar postage then what is the reason they should pay another round of postage to send you a new one?

[paul cottingham]

Nope. You paid for a new, defect free tool. The manufacturer needs to pay the freight both ways, no questions asked. Why should you have to pay to correct their mistake? The logic of that completely escapes me.

When i still had my business, we had to both pay the freight for an RMA and send the part back after getting their permission. It galled me every time we had to do it. Fortunately, we used high quality parts, and our RMA's were few and far between.

[Phil Thien]

The thing is, historically, mail order companies haven't provided free return shipping (even if the problem was a defective product).

I get that LV and LN may sometimes do this. But we don't even know if the company in question is one of those (and I'm not asking that we name names).

I purchased a blade once at Lowes (on the other side of town). When I got home, I realized that someone had returned a used (damaged) blade and had to return to the store to exchange it. The cost of the fuel was at least six or eight dollars. Should I have asked for reimbursement?

[Pat Barry]

1) I'd like to see a picture of this defect just to be sure about what we are really talking about. Its really not apparent to me this as anything more than a cosmetic thing, maybe not even a real defect. On the other hand, if its a real defect then the company should willingly pay the freight for you.

[Joshua Fishbein]

So here is an update:

I contacted the customer service rep and asked if my return shipping would be covered. Without a question, the rep said that I would be happily reimbursed for shipping, only that I need include a note with the item being sent back along with a receipt for the shipping.

That did make me feel better and I am definitely appreciative of their effort to take care of me, their customer. However, I do feel that there could have been a better way.

I think everyone likes to think that they get the same customer service, support, and quality no matter who you are or how much you spend. The rep clearly stated that it was a manufacturing defect. Whether it affected the performance of the tool is a moot point and should not impact anything at all. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't go out and pay a premium for a brand new Ferrari only to find that your new luxury sportscar needs a new paint job. Yeah sure, it still drives, but are you going to be content? Probably not.

And, just to make a point, I am certainly NOT trying to start any wars. That is why I never stated any names, trying to be as non-specific as possible. I only wanted opinions since this, as mentioned, was my first foray into premium hand tools. So thank you to all of you who did just that. It is always best to evaluate a situation from another person's POV, even if they are playing devil's advocate.

I will let you all know how things play out from here...

And thanks for the welcome everyone. I truly do appreciate it. From everything that I have read so far, this is a really great community filled with a wealth of knowledge and experience. I am grateful and happy to be here and look forward to contributing to the forum. :)

[Hilton Ralphs]

Sorry, I don't think its worth it for a few bucks. I'm no Donald Trump but my time is worth more than spending 15-20min chasing 5$.

It's this type of apathy the big boys are hoping for. All the little 'not worth it for a few bucks' add up and translate into big fat bonus cheques.

[Jim Koepke]

Joshua,

Glad to hear it is getting taken care of.

I think you did well in stating your situation without creating hard feelings toward a vendor.

Some seem to have an idea who the vendor is. I haven't figured it out and am not going to try.

jtk

[Harold Burrell]

Josh,

I just wanted to add to what others have already said...Thank you for not publicly stating who the company was. I understand that there are times when there might be merit in doing so if the company is being absolutely unreasonable, but during a "dispute" (and before it has been resolved) I think it a good idea to keep it anonymous.

But mostly, I think it shows your good character and what kind of man you are.

Which is, just the kind of man we appreciate around these parts. :)

Welcome to the Creek.

[Jim Koepke]

But mostly, I think it shows your good character and what kind of man you are.

Which is, just the kind of man we appreciate around these parts. :)

+1 on that.

jtk

[Simon MacGowen]

It's this type of apathy the big boys are hoping for. All the little 'not worth it for a few bucks' add up and translate into big fat bonus cheques.

+1. Those - Trump or not - who choose to pay extra to get a tool are free to do so and may well keep a silence. But those who choose to voice their displeasure and ask for advice must be supported by their fellow woodworkers.

Simon