Sleeping disorders?

[Larry Edgerton]

I notice that occasionally I stop breathing when I am sleeping and it wakes me up. That is probably a good thing, that I wake up, unless you are talking to one of my ex wives, but I guess I need to check it out. I have insurance but it sucks these days thanks to O Care, so a specialist would cost me more than I could pull off right now.

Any recommended reading on the subject?

A couple of friends of mine have breathing machines for whatever reason that they use at night, but that would certainly not work for me. I have broken 63 bones in various misadventures and so toss and turn as I can only stay in one position for a while till something starts hurting. I'm up at 5 AM every day no matter what because of the pain.

I need more sleep!

Thoughts, experiences?

Thanks, Larry

[Dimitrios Fradelakis]

Sleep Apnea is a very serious disorder. When you stop breathing and wake up it puts tremendous strain on your heart. See your doctor ASAP about the issue you're having. Asking for advice on a serious matter like this on a woodworking forum is not a good move.

Best of luck to you.

[Nike Nihiser]

It sounds like you have sleep apnea, as do I. It can have serious implications. I had the sleep test. got the breathing machine and hated it. I have a back problem that makes it virtually impossible to sleep on my back and the mouth/nose apparatus doesn't work well with side sleepers. Additionally, the machine dried out my mouth and throat very much. I got a humidifier attachment for the machine and it helped but not enough. The dryness was a bigger problem for sleeping than the bad fit of the mouth/nose apparatus. I now use the Breathe Right things you can buy at any drug store. While not a 100% cure, they help. The other thing is body weight, I have fewer issues with the apnea if I keep my weight down. You should probably talk to your Doctor.

[Phil Thien]

Asking for advice on a serious matter like this on a woodworking forum is not a good move.


I don't disagree w/ the advice to talk with a physician. But asking here allows several benefits:

(1) You get to hear what other doctors have told members with sleep apnea. Instead of limiting your input to a single doctor or two, you leverage a bunch of them.

(2) You may find someone else that also suffers difficulty sleeping due to previous injuries, and sleep apnea, and they may have very useful advice about equipment that allows additional mobility.

(3) Others that may suffer from sleep apnea can learn from the discussion. Those just beginning to experience symptoms may learn of the need to seek professional attention.

(4) Those with loved ones that have the disorder may learn a thing or two.

My doctors are great guys and aren't dismissive at all about what I find on the Internet. They have no problem helping me separate the wheat from the chaff and have often followed-up with links to articles and papers to clear things up.

If your doctor doesn't want you doing your own research and asking questions, you need to find a different doctor (IMHO).

Discussions like these improve the quality of healthcare, not the other way around.

[Brian Elfert]

There are dental devices that will help with sleep apnea. There is also an implant called Inspire Sleep, but the cost is around $40,000 and is usually not the first option. You cannot get an MRI after getting the implant. The whole MRI thing would be a no go for me along with the $2700 out of pocket.

The first therapy they always try for sleep apnea is a CPAP machine.

[Larry Edgerton]

Asking for advice on a serious matter like this on a woodworking forum is not a good move.

Best of luck to you.

Why not? You just informed me it is a serious issue. I did not know that.

[Larry Edgerton]

It sounds like you have sleep apnea, as do I. It can have serious implications. I had the sleep test. got the breathing machine and hated it. I have a back problem that makes it virtually impossible to sleep on my back and the mouth/nose apparatus doesn't work well with side sleepers. Additionally, the machine dried out my mouth and throat very much. I got a humidifier attachment for the machine and it helped but not enough. The dryness was a bigger problem for sleeping than the bad fit of the mouth/nose apparatus. I now use the Breathe Right things you can buy at any drug store. While not a 100% cure, they help. The other thing is body weight, I have fewer issues with the apnea if I keep my weight down. You should probably talk to your Doctor.

I have broken my back twice, same issue. If I don't roll around I get spasms in my tenderloins. I am a bit overweight at the moment, part of the problem with being crippled up. Been working on it but still have 30 pounds to go. Will get more serious.

I worked out of town with a friend that used one of those machines. No way. I roll about every 20 minutes or less and can not sleep on my back at all.

Phil, that about covers why I posted this on all bases.

[Alan Hick]

I notice that occasionally I stop breathing when I am sleeping and it wakes me up. That is probably a good thing, that I wake up, unless you are talking to one of my ex wives, but I guess I need to check it out. I have insurance but it sucks these days thanks to O Care, so a specialist would cost me more than I could pull off right now.

Any recommended reading on the subject?

A couple of friends of mine have breathing machines for whatever reason that they use at night, but that would certainly not work for me. I have broken 63 bones in various misadventures and so toss and turn as I can only stay in one position for a while till something starts hurting. I'm up at 5 AM every day no matter what because of the pain.

I need more sleep!

Thoughts, experiences?

Thanks, Larry

If you're having episodes of stopping breathing that wake you up, it's possible if not probable that you're having similar episodes that don't wake you up. As noted this can have some serious cardiovascular consequences. There are several questions that will need to be answered--with a doctor, not here-- such as :
1. Is this drug or alcohol induced? If you have lots of pain from previous injuries, and you're on chronic narcotics, or you consume a lot of alcohol to help you sleep; or you're on other drugs that can "depress" the function of the area of the brain that controls breathing while you're asleep, then some adjustment in what you're doing may be all that's needed
2. Are you significantly overweight? and is there possibility that you could lose said weight?
3. Do you nod off easily and sometimes unexpectedly during the day? If so, are you still driving? Because if the answer to both is "yes" then you're putting yourself and other people in danger.
4. If this is "Sleep Apnea", then is it "obstructive sleep apnea" or is it "central sleep apnea"? Central sleep apnea is a little complicated to describe in a forum such as this, but it can be caused by heart failure, or damage to the breathing control areas of the brain. You can have "cyclical breathing patterns, sometimes referred to as Cheyne-Stokes breathing, where you progressively breathe deeper and faster, then slower and shallower, and sometimes stop...and then start the cycle over.

With obstructive sleep apnea the airway is "obstructed" by your tongue relaxing and falling back and contacting the soft flap of tissue in the back or your mouth, effectively forming a seal. This is one of the causes of snoring, and when you get really relaxed the seal is so tight that you stop breathing altogether. Then you wake up, or almost wake up, and the cycle starts over.

The purpose of the "breathing machine" is to supply a small amount of constant or variable pressure to hold your soft palate away from your tongue while you're sleeping. Thus there's no obstructive seal, and you don't stop breathing.

You should make an appointment with a sleep doctor. They'll ask a bunch of questions and do a brief exam and decide whether you need a sleep study or not.

Good luck.

[Von Bickley]

Sleep Apnea is a very serious disorder. When you stop breathing and wake up it puts tremendous strain on your heart. See your doctor ASAP about the issue you're having. Asking for advice on a serious matter like this on a woodworking forum is not a good move.

Best of luck to you.

I agree with Dimitrios......
When I was diagnosed with sleep apnea, I would stop breathing 67 times per hour. With the sleep machine, I am down to 3 times per hour. When you stop breathing, your blood oxygen drops, and when that happens, you can be damaging your internal body organs, not just your heart. With my machine, I sleep on my right side, left side, and back. You can move around. I also do not snore when I wear my sleep machine. My wife and I would sleep on opposite ends of the house because of my snoring. The machine took care of that.
I hate using the sleep machine and wish I could just take a pill, but that is not going to happen. The doctors have told me that a significant weight loss would help. As we get older, we learn that we have to make changes, and we do what we have to do.

Wishing you the best with this problem and you really need to have a sleep study done.

[Pat Barry]

Just curious Larry - How do you know that you stop breathing and this wakes you up? How do you know its that and not something else that is waking you up? Most people with sleep apnea get alerted to issues due to snoring and stopping breathing (holding your breath) by a spouse for example. Its probably a bit unusual, and maybe worse, if you recognize this on your own. I'd say you need to see your Dr soon

[Scott Shepherd]

I'm not affiliated with any of this, but I have friends and family using (or have tried to use) CPAP machines with no luck, so this one caught my eye when I saw it posted on some tech website....

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/airing-the-first-hoseless-maskless-micro-cpap#/story

I hope it works, it will change a lot of people's lives.

[Larry Edgerton]

If you're having episodes of stopping breathing that wake you up, it's possible if not probable that you're having similar episodes that don't wake you up. As noted this can have some serious cardiovascular consequences. There are several questions that will need to be answered--with a doctor, not here-- such as :
1. Is this drug or alcohol induced? If you have lots of pain from previous injuries, and you're on chronic narcotics, or you consume a lot of alcohol to help you sleep; or you're on other drugs that can "depress" the function of the area of the brain that controls breathing while you're asleep, then some adjustment in what you're doing may be all that's needed
2. Are you significantly overweight? and is there possibility that you could lose said weight?
3. Do you nod off easily and sometimes unexpectedly during the day? If so, are you still driving? Because if the answer to both is "yes" then you're putting yourself and other people in danger.
4. If this is "Sleep Apnea", then is it "obstructive sleep apnea" or is it "central sleep apnea"? Central sleep apnea is a little complicated to describe in a forum such as this, but it can be caused by heart failure, or damage to the breathing control areas of the brain. You can have "cyclical breathing patterns, sometimes referred to as Cheyne-Stokes breathing, where you progressively breathe deeper and faster, then slower and shallower, and sometimes stop...and then start the cycle over.

With obstructive sleep apnea the airway is "obstructed" by your tongue relaxing and falling back and contacting the soft flap of tissue in the back or your mouth, effectively forming a seal. This is one of the causes of snoring, and when you get really relaxed the seal is so tight that you stop breathing altogether. Then you wake up, or almost wake up, and the cycle starts over.

The purpose of the "breathing machine" is to supply a small amount of constant or variable pressure to hold your soft palate away from your tongue while you're sleeping. Thus there's no obstructive seal, and you don't stop breathing.

You should make an appointment with a sleep doctor. They'll ask a bunch of questions and do a brief exam and decide whether you need a sleep study or not.

Good luck.


Good post, Thanks for taking the time.

#1 not an issue. I have an occasional beer, two max maybe once every two weeks. I was taking two Aleve every morning. but stopped that when they [FDA]came out with the warning. I now only take them on really bad days. I have purposely stayed away from narcotics, saving that for the end. I like my liver, thank you!

#2 A bit. I am a big fellow, and with the joint pain I have lost a lot of muscle mass in the last few years. You know what that turned into. I am trying to change my diet to fit my new/old body and still leave me energy to work. About 30#'s over but on the way down. I will accelerate this process.

#3 No, but I am tired from lack of good sleep..........

#4 Here you may have something. I have been chasing a strange numbness if you will in my head, mostly on the left side. It has continually gotten worse over a fifteen year or so period. Sometimes it is in my arms and legs. Have had every test known to man and seen several neurologists and no one has found anything. I was also tested for heart/stroke and have not had those issues. I had a bad accident many years ago that fractured my scull from ear to ear, and I feel that it has something to do with this, but.....

This year I gave up on finding out what is wrong in this. They were scheduling test after test, racking up huge bills, and all for nothing. I would not have considered the possibility of the two being connected until you mentioned this. I almost have all my copays paid off from the last couple of years, and when I do I should perhaps find some one to take a look at it from a different angle. I am done with the local chain hospital. They have wasted my time and money and don't even offer any suggestions. I think because they can not see it they do not believe it is there really.

I very seldom snore.

[Phil Thien]

I'm not affiliated with any of this, but I have friends and family using (or have tried to use) CPAP machines with no luck, so this one caught my eye when I saw it posted on some tech website....

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/airing-the-first-hoseless-maskless-micro-cpap#/story

I hope it works, it will change a lot of people's lives.

That looks promising.

I saw a story once indicating that the sleep apnea causes a vicious cycle where people don't get enough sleep and so they eat more which causes weight gain and more sleep apnea. The report indicated that for many people, stopping the sleep apnea results in weight loss but the apparatus (CPAP I guess) didn't work well for a lot of people.

If that gizmo you linked works, it could be a real game changer.

[Scott Shepherd]

That looks promising.

I saw a story once indicating that the sleep apnea causes a vicious cycle where people don't get enough sleep and so they eat more which causes weight gain and more sleep apnea. The report indicated that for many people, stopping the sleep apnea results in weight loss but the apparatus (CPAP I guess) didn't work well for a lot of people.

If that gizmo you linked works, it could be a real game changer.

Yeah, that's a really clever gadget. What I didn't realize until today, was that they are disposable, I guess. You buy a "45 day supply" of them, and it says the cycle is 8 hours long, so I'm guessing you get a new one every day. If that's the case, I'm sure someone will figure out how to prolong that so they last days and weeks at a time.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Larry - -

All is very easy - just go see a Doc. You have been living with this condition for a long time, so you are not going to cash out in the next 48 hours if you don't go right away. Alarmist rhetoric helps not. A calm, reasoned, action plan is the ticket.

But - there is no reason to be screwing around and avoiding it.

We need you here, brudda. Man up and get it done. Garage door open season is coming soon, and we want to see this year's kill rate. :p

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I don't have a sleeping disorder, but I do have a waking disorder.

...but seriously, and I am not being mean here- lose some weight. My wife, who teaches nursing and is in the process of getting her PhD (Pretty hard Degree), harps on this a lot. It does not mean that you are "fat" nescessarily, but I will take myself as an example. If I gain just 5 pounds over my normal weight, I start to snore more and I have similar problems at night- waking up short of breath. If I lose down to my "fighting weight," no issues. One of my fat storage areas appears to be around my neck, and with all those bulging neck muscles there isn't much room for fat. (nyuck, nyuck)

Fortunately you're a dude, so you don't take it personally. I would never give a woman this advice. I would tell her to go see a professional because telling a woman to lose weight is like juggling cats.

[Brian Elfert]

I have sleep apnea. I was modestly overweight by 10 to 20 pounds, but even when I lost a lot of weight last fall it didn't help my sleep.

This thread did inspire to make a follow-up appointment with my sleep doctor.

[Phil Thien]

I don't have a sleeping disorder, but I do have a waking disorder.

...but seriously, and I am not being mean here- lose some weight. My wife, who teaches nursing and is in the process of getting her PhD (Pretty hard Degree), harps on this a lot. It does not mean that you are "fat" nescessarily, but I will take myself as an example. If I gain just 5 pounds over my normal weight, I start to snore more and I have similar problems at night- waking up short of breath. If I lose down to my "fighting weight," no issues. One of my fat storage areas appears to be around my neck, and with all those bulging neck muscles there isn't much room for fat. (nyuck, nyuck)

Fortunately you're a dude, so you don't take it personally. I would never give a woman this advice. I would tell her to go see a professional because telling a woman to lose weight is like juggling cats.

The problem is, losing weight at our ages isn't so easy, and keeping it off is even harder.

I don't disagree with the advice, mind you.

But juggling those cats may (in the long run) be easier.

[Pat Barry]

As I mentioned earlier, sleep apnea is not something one can typically self diagnose. OP mentions waking several times in the night and not sleeping well. Its a big jump to stopping breathing. That diagnosis is done in a sleep center. He may well have other issues. For example, I have tingling in my legs and twitching of leg muscles that wake me up. Thats not sleep apnea. Don't jump to conclusions

These four yes-or-no "STOP" questions can help you determine your risk for sleep apnea:

S: Do you snore loudly (louder than talking or loud enough to be heard through closed doors)?
T: Do you often feel tired, fatigued, or sleepy during the day?
O: Has anyone observed you not breathing during sleep?
P: Do you have or have you been treated for high blood pressure?

You have a high risk of sleep apnea if you answered "yes" to two or more of these questions. You are strongly encouraged to discuss these results with your medical provider.

[Larry Edgerton]

Pat, I am not imagining the stopping breathing. Its creepy, and has just been the last little while. I notice it mostly at the point when I am not quite asleep, just nodding off. I wake up feeling like I am drowning and about ready to pass out.

I wasn't really expecting to self diagnose Pat, but there are some fairly intelligent people on this forum and I wanted a sounding board of experiences and knowledge. That's all, a conversation. .

The possibility of a link to my already malfunctioning brain is an interesting thought, scary, but interesting.

[Rick Moyer]

Just to add to the discussion: have you ever been tested for allergies? I have not been tested for sleep apnea (yet, I plan to) but I think allergies can cause similar symptoms as apnea. I frequently cannot breathe thru one or both nostrils, especially when laying down. Allergy meds have helped quite a bit, however. But, this leads to frequent sleepy episodes during the day if I don't allow enough "sleep time". Just something else to consider. I am also overweight, unfortunately, which does not help.

[Larry Frank]

I am not a doctor but stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Seriously, please see a doctor...the people on this forum are no substitute for one. They do not know your specific medical issues.

[Brian Elfert]

I'm not affiliated with any of this, but I have friends and family using (or have tried to use) CPAP machines with no luck, so this one caught my eye when I saw it posted on some tech website....

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/airing-the-first-hoseless-maskless-micro-cpap#/story

I hope it works, it will change a lot of people's lives.

This is only going to work for those who don't need a full face mask due to mouth breathing. It also provides no data that a traditional CPAP machine provides. It is a neat device, but I don't think it will revolutionize the treatment of sleep apnea.

I have not found any information about how far along they are with FDA approval. They could be years from FDA approval. I bet some who donated for the free or reduced priced stuff are going to start to get antsy if this takes years to be approved.

[Ruperto Mendiones]

Obstructive sleep apnea may lead to hypertension, heart attacks, stroke and diabetes. It is one of the most under diagnosed conditions in America. It is behind many road accidents caused by sleepy drivers.

You may not need a full $leep $tudy. There at home breathing machine devices [tests] that can make the diagnoses without the expense and bother of a full, in-hospital polysomnogram. My suggestion is for you to find a doctor who does sleep medicine most of the time and exercise some control over what is ordered since it is, in fact, your cost.

CPAP machines are quite effective and many of the " I couldn't stand it" responses hail from poorly fitted masks or poorly adapted pressure protocols. Generally you have to work with your doctor and respiratory therapist to get mask & equipment that fits and suits you.

Believe me, I've experienced it all-- from the prescribing to the mask-side of it.

Ruperto Mendiones M.D.

[Stephen Tashiro]

That diagnosis is done in a sleep center.

I assume that a thorough diagnosis would require being observed at a sleep center. However, there is a "cheap" test given to people who have been prescribed oxygen at night. The same companies that rent oxygen tanks and machines also administer a simple test where the patient wears an oxygen metering and recording device overnight. There are certain standards that the result must meet in order for Medicare to pay for the oxygen. Perhaps if you approach the problem as asking for an oxygen prescription instead of investigating a sleep disorder, you could at least get the cheap test, which might confirm sleep apnea.

[Matt Meiser]

I move around quite a bit sleeping and have learned how to position the hose so I can easily do that. But I can't lie on my stomach.

There's a dental appliance too that basically holds your tongue forward. It was out when I got my CPAP but more expensive and my dental insurance said it was a medical thing and my medical insurance said it was a dental thing.

[Mark Blatter]

There's a dental appliance too that basically holds your tongue forward. It was out when I got my CPAP but more expensive and my dental insurance said it was a medical thing and my medical insurance said it was a dental thing.

Welcome to wonderful world of insurance. I did hear a story recently about a guy in the NE that was diagnosed with sleep apnea and could not handle the mask. His doctor was able to get him a dental appliance and it seemed to work pretty well.

Ironically, I started reading this thread last night about 2 a.m. when I couldn't sleep due to my legs bothering me.

[David Ragan]

Larry, you did the right thing by posting that.

I don't think anyone here is going to try to supplant the advice by an MD.

Conversely, I don't think anyone posting here is going to take us seriously either-ha ha

Have the study. Be sure to follow up.

Did I say be sure to follow up?

And, if you can't tolerate the mask-follow up; there are other things to do. I do a nasal pillow-piece of cake.

Anyway, untreated OSA is a huge health risk for so many things, its ridiculous.

[Phil Thien]

As I mentioned earlier, sleep apnea is not something one can typically self diagnose. OP mentions waking several times in the night and not sleeping well. Its a big jump to stopping breathing. That diagnosis is done in a sleep center. He may well have other issues. For example, I have tingling in my legs and twitching of leg muscles that wake me up. Thats not sleep apnea. Don't jump to conclusions

These four yes-or-no "STOP" questions can help you determine your risk for sleep apnea:



S: Do you snore loudly (louder than talking or loud enough to be heard through closed doors)?
T: Do you often feel tired, fatigued, or sleepy during the day?
O: Has anyone observed you not breathing during sleep?
P: Do you have or have you been treated for high blood pressure?

You have a high risk of sleep apnea if you answered "yes" to two or more of these questions. You are strongly encouraged to discuss these results with your medical provider.

Isn't "O" enough all by itself? I'd think if people tell you that you stop breathing while you're asleep, that you would need to go in right away?

[Von Bickley]

Larry,

When it is all said and done, you just need to talk to your primary care Physician.

[Scott Shepherd]

For those with it, correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember someone telling me that it really messes with medications you take as well. Something about the way your body absorbs the medicines and the disruptions that keep happening to your body cause your medications to work differently. I thought they said many people, when treated, ended up reducing their doses of medicine because it worked better when they slept all night.

[Brian Elfert]

Larry,

When it is all said and done, you just need to talk to your primary care Physician.

Larry seems worried about the cost. Depending on your insurance you can just go straight to a sleep doctor without a referral from a primary care doctor. Heck, around there there are several billboards for sleep centers. The first thing the doctor will probably do is order a sleep study. There are some studies done at home, but a sleep study at a clinic is going cost your insurer about $1200 or so. The initial visit, sleep study, and follow up visit will probably cost your insurer $1,700 to $2,000.

[Brian Elfert]

I visited my sleep doctor today. I've been through probably 10 different CPAP masks. I paid for a number of them myself and insurance paid for the rest. I simply can't get the CPAP to work for me even though I have been trying.

The doctor recommended the dental device so now I need to contact a dentist to get one made.

[charlie knighton]

I do have sleep disorder, but to my knowledge I do not stop breathing.......just my mind will not shut down. I get up at 6 am for breakfast and medience. it helps if I do some exercise like mow the yard. if I drive say 5 hours I am out like a lite and sleep like a log.

[Larry Edgerton]

Larry seems worried about the cost. Depending on your insurance you can just go straight to a sleep doctor without a referral from a primary care doctor. Heck, around there there are several billboards for sleep centers. The first thing the doctor will probably do is order a sleep study. There are some studies done at home, but a sleep study at a clinic is going cost your insurer about $1200 or so. The initial visit, sleep study, and follow up visit will probably cost your insurer $1,700 to $2,000.

You nailed it. Much of that cost would be mine as I am on a new fiscal year and have to pick up the tab to the first $3000. Paying someone $2000 to watch me sleep is just ridiculous! A third of my months income, really? And on top of that I am paying $13,500 a year for insurance for my wife and I.

[Phil Thien]

I wonder if it will someday be possible to 3D print some apparatus for the mouth that will reduce sleep apnea.

[Brian Elfert]

There are already dental devices for sleep apnea. That is the next step for me. I found a clinical study for sleep apnea that I would qualify for, but they won't take me because Minneapolis is not a city they have a clinic in. Chicago is the closest.

[Jerry Bruette]

I think you've gotten some good advice. I'd like to throw in my .02. I think you could go to a pulmonologist sp? and have an in home test done. That will tell you if you have apnea, but won't tell you how severe. The doctor could write you a prescription for a APAP machine. It's similar but different than a CPAP, it automatically sets the pressure needed according to your breathing while asleep.


You nailed it. Much of that cost would be mine as I am on a new fiscal year and have to pick up the tab to the first $3000. Paying someone $2000 to watch me sleep is just ridiculous! A third of my months income, really? And on top of that I am paying $13,500 a year for insurance for my wife and I.

In my experience if you go through your insurance the suppliers of the equipment will see you as a cash cow. All the suppliers that are "in network" with my insurance charge as much as 300% more than I can buy without using the insurance. I stopped making claims through my insurance years ago. All you need to buy the equipment on your own is your prescription, or a copy of it to send to the supplier. You can buy any machine, as fancy or plain, that you want along with any mask and other equipment needed without your insurance ever knowing.

There are also websites that are like support groups, the posters will share experiences and advice much like we do here with wood working.

I don't think apnea is anything to ignore or discount, it can lead to other serious medical conditions that could easily be avoided, thus improving quality life. I know using a CPAP has changed my life for the better.

[Brian Elfert]

All insurance is different, but my insurer only pays the DME about the same amount for CPAP supplies as I would pay a mail order place. I do have to pay 20% myself. Now, the retail price DMEs charge is outrageous.