Horizontal mortiser..

[Patrick Walsh]

Do i go tilting table or fixed.

With a Felder Ad941 and RL 125 to be delivered and thus paid for in full in only a couple short weeks time i am contemplating my next tool purchase.

The three big tools on my list and listed by priority of purchase go as this mortiser, drill press and oscillating edge sander.

I'm inclined to just order the Felder stand alone mortising unit. However i have noticed at least one company making a unit with a tilting table. I have no idea the price and assume it is pretty expensive.

So the question for people that use a mortiser on the regular, should i spring the extra cash for the tilting table and be happy i did later when the money is spent and i could care less. Or will it just be a feature i never use and wish i had spent the money elsewhere?

The machine will be used in furniture and cabinet construction along with the odd art piece..

[Jeff Duncan]

It's really up to you to decide…..do you ever see yourself doing diagonal mortises? If not it's a fair amount extra for something you'll never use. If you think you might with the "odd art piece" then it may be worth it? Mines a fixed table and can't say as though I've ever wished I had a tilting. Then again if something comes up someday…….:rolleyes:

good luck,
JeffD

[Patrick Walsh]

These are the machines that peak my interest. Pretty sure the Kundig is out of the question. Any others i should be considering i am missing?

http://www.houfek.com/sanders/oscillation-sanders1/en_36.htm?lang=en

http://www.martin-usa.com/products/tm100/

http://www.kuendig.ch/en/edge-sanding/kuendig-uniq-s/

http://www.felderusa.com/us-us/products/edge-sanders/edge-sander-with-veneersanding-device-fs-900-kf.html

[Roy Harding]

These are the machines that peak my interest. Pretty sure the Kundig is out of the question. Any others i should be considering i am missing?

http://www.houfek.com/sanders/oscillation-sanders1/en_36.htm?lang=en

http://www.martin-usa.com/products/tm100/

http://www.kuendig.ch/en/edge-sanding/kuendig-uniq-s/

http://www.felderusa.com/us-us/products/edge-sanders/edge-sander-with-veneersanding-device-fs-900-kf.html

Only one of your links leads to a mortiser (the Martin) - the others are all sanders.

To the question - Jeff has it nailed, I think. If you're often going to be doing work where a tilting table mortiser is an asset - then get one. Otherwise, for the occasional piece that requires an angled mortise, a shop built jig should be more than sufficient.

By the way - given the quality of the machines that pique your interest (at least as illustrated by your links), you're going to drop a pretty penny whether you go for tilting or not.

[Peter Quinn]

I can think of two instances where you might need a tilting table. Some odd angles on chairs, and louver doors. I could rig the louver doors easy enough on a flxed table....for chairs the tilting table may be handy. But for almost everything else I encounter....I'd buy a domino XL. I'm using one at work and cant say I really want a slot mortiser at all. It handles all but the very biggest of mortises, set up is super fast, a slot mortiser takes up a fair amount of real estate in the shop, the domino almost none. Pretty sure I could jig that up to do angled mortises too should the need arise.

Another for the list to consider.......http://www.atlanticmach.com/standard/Griggio_TRC_N.pdf

[Kent A Bathurst]

... you're going to drop a pretty penny whether you go for tilting or not.

Not when compared to his brand new J/P and Dust Extractor.....

I'm hoping Patrick will give us the rest of the shop tooling list...........Which DP? Which osc sander got picked? The links were set to those. Table saw/slider? Band saw?

[Patrick Walsh]

Chairs are mostly my motivation for buying a tilting table. I can see myself using the added feature although not very often in all honesty. The feature will however get used from time to time will surely not go unused. Do i need it though for the money. The felder machine can be had for a a short few grand give or take.

As for the domino well that will be purchased at some point also. I kinda considered the XL and Seneca route but then decided i think i would like the stand alone machine so i can make true mortise and tenon joints.

I am a carpenter somewhere lost between finish work, kitchen installations and the general all around construction of 3-5 million dollar homes coupled with the maintenance and repair of them. Point being i am a avid Festool user to date and assume a Domino is at some point in my future. I think for sight work the smaller would be better suited. For home hobby type stuff "furniture making" i think the slot mortiser peaks my interest a bit more as i just dont see using dowels on repro or one off custom pieces i am building simply for the joy of it.


I can think of two instances where you might need a tilting table. Some odd angles on chairs, and louver doors. I could rig the louver doors easy enough on a flxed table....for chairs the tilting table may be handy. But for almost everything else I encounter....I'd buy a domino XL. I'm using one at work and cant say I really want a slot mortiser at all. It handles all but the very biggest of mortises, set up is super fast, a slot mortiser takes up a fair amount of real estate in the shop, the domino almost none. Pretty sure I could jig that up to do angled mortises too should the need arise.

Another for the list to consider.......http://www.atlanticmach.com/standard/Griggio_TRC_N.pdf

[Patrick Walsh]

Right now i have a ICS Sawstop and a Laguna 14/12. I own quite a arsenal of Festools as i use them for work including MFT tables and the CMS VL router table.

I will at some point add a slider moulder combo machine to the mix but in all honesty that will be my last purchase as i can do most of what i do on my Sawstop and CMS.

As mentioned above the slot mortiser and oscillating edge sander are next. Then upgrade the sears bench top drill press i was given from the 80's and i should be pretty good for a while. I cant figure what way to go, Powermatic seems attractive other than the complaints. Maybe a General or a Rikon?

Another bandsaw will be added to the stable probably a Aggazzani or the Felder 610? The second bandsaw will probably happen right after the edge sander as it is relatively short money compared to my most recent two purchases.




Not when compared to his brand new J/P and Dust Extractor.....

I'm hoping Patrick will give us the rest of the shop tooling list...........Which DP? Which osc sander got picked? The links were set to those. Table saw/slider? Band saw?

[Kent A Bathurst]

Then upgrade the sears bench top drill press i was given from the 80's and i should be pretty good for a while. I cant figure what way to go, Powermatic seems attractive other than the complaints. Maybe a General or a Rikon?

Patrick -

First: those DP's stand out as not belonging anywhere near your other gear, to be honest - dog poop floating in the punch bowl. You need something in the same class of starship as your other tools. Which means.....

Going "classic". You want a Powermatic 1150-VS or 1150A-VS, or a Powermatic 1200. Or - the 1150/1150A with 3ph and a VFD to manage the speeds.

You can find them, in good to VG shape, fairly regularly. You can go to owwm.org - Old Woodworking Machines, and ask around - all those guys allow is talk about American Old Arn. That's where I got my 1150A-VS - a beauty from early 80's. They have 'em. They love 'em. They restore 'em.

There simply is not, to my knowledge, a world class modern woodworking DP made today. You need to go to machinist's grade stuff instead.

Second:

And please, understand that this is high praise in these here parts:


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[Paul Murphy]

I can think of two instances where you might need a tilting table. Some odd angles on chairs, and louver doors. I could rig the louver doors easy enough on a flxed table....for chairs the tilting table may be handy. But for almost everything else I encounter....I'd buy a domino XL. I'm using one at work and cant say I really want a slot mortiser at all. It handles all but the very biggest of mortises, set up is super fast, a slot mortiser takes up a fair amount of real estate in the shop, the domino almost none. Pretty sure I could jig that up to do angled mortises too should the need arise.

Another for the list to consider.......http://www.atlanticmach.com/standard/Griggio_TRC_N.pdf

The Griggio is a nice machine. As a matter of fact Griggio makes the mortiser for Martin, the only difference I can see is the color of the paint.

[Peter Quinn]

Regarding true mortise and tenons....slot mortiser and domino are equivalent. The domino punches the same slots as a slot mortiser, just that you bring the tool to the work. Punch slots on stiles, nothing stopping you from milling true tenons on rails. We just got the smallest cutter for the XL which IIR is 8mm, so around 3/8", perfect for 1" face frame work, I actually like the bigger domino better in every way than the smaller one. I though the big one would be akward on small parts, but it's actually very stable given the longer fence and increased mass. We originally got it for a batch of curved entry doors, we wayed all the options, slot mortiser with dowel bar versus bridge port versus domino. The domino won due to space and flexibility. I have a fixed table slot mortiser in my home shop, would trade it in an instant for a domino XL. It's really a game changer in my mind.

[Erik Loza]

....As a matter of fact Griggio makes the mortiser for Martin, the only difference I can see is the color of the paint.

At the Vegas show, a gentleman with the US dealership that handles Griggio told me that you can tell the difference between the actual in house-made Martin machines and the ones they buy from Griggio, if in doubt, by the color. It's a slightly different shade of teal (or whatever they call it) between Griggio and Martin. Apparently, that's the closest color poweder coat they get. If you looked at them side by side, you could indeed tell. Thought that was funny.

I think most folks would be surprised at how many European mfrs. don't actually make their own stuff. Instead, they just buy it frome someone else and re-brand it. Just like I think many folks would be surprised at how many "100% made in Europe" machines are actually made 90% in China. Not that any of that necessarily matters as long as folks realize that they sometimes could be paying Lexus prices for Toyota vehicles or Jaguar prices for Ford vehicles. Just my 2-cents as always.

Erik

[Patrick Walsh]

Its this thought process that makes it so hard to pull the trigger either way.

I guess I'm crazy to not start with the Domino XL. being a avid Festool user its kinda just weird i don't own one to date.mit would save me $1500-$2000k and fact i would use it for work all the time.




Regarding true mortise and tenons....slot mortiser and domino are equivalent. The domino punches the same slots as a slot mortiser, just that you bring the tool to the work. Punch slots on stiles, nothing stopping you from milling true tenons on rails. We just got the smallest cutter for the XL which IIR is 8mm, so around 3/8", perfect for 1" face frame work, I actually like the bigger domino better in every way than the smaller one. I though the big one would be akward on small parts, but it's actually very stable given the longer fence and increased mass. We originally got it for a batch of curved entry doors, we wayed all the options, slot mortiser with dowel bar versus bridge port versus domino. The domino won due to space and flexibility. I have a fixed table slot mortiser in my home shop, would trade it in an instant for a domino XL. It's really a game changer in my mind.

[Jeff Duncan]

We originally got it for a batch of curved entry doors, we wayed all the options, slot mortiser with dowel bar versus bridge port versus domino. The domino won due to space and flexibility. I have a fixed table slot mortiser in my home shop, would trade it in an instant for a domino XL. It's really a game changer in my mind.

How big were the mortises you cut in the entry doors? With my slot mortiser I can mill 5/8" slots 4"+ deep, which on some doors are still on the smallish side. I didn't think the Domino could do tenons in that range but admit I haven't looked too closely at the new "bigger version".

JeffD

[David Kumm]

I have run a Felder 250 for years. Nice machine but large 1/2"+ mortises of any volume can kind of beat you to death in hardwood. I bought a used Bacci and much prefer it.320168320169 Leaning over the Felder and operating the joystick gives me back problems but that may be unique to me. You do need to develop a touch to keep the long grain and end grain mortises exactly the same diameter, or use a rasp to finesse one. Dave

[Patrick Walsh]

This is a important detail for me also.

The first project these machines will see is the construction of three entry doors. The doors will be solid teak with 5.5" wide by 8/4 styles and rails. The jambs and casings will also be solid teak 4/4 and 5/4.

Second project is ten plantation style interior shutters of various sizes made of either qswo or some kind of gum wood?




How big were the mortises you cut in the entry doors? With my slot mortiser I can mill 5/8" slots 4"+ deep, which on some doors are still on the smallish side. I didn't think the Domino could do tenons in that range but admit I haven't looked too closely at the new "bigger version".

JeffD

[Peter Quinn]

How big were the mortises you cut in the entry doors? With my slot mortiser I can mill 5/8" slots 4"+ deep, which on some doors are still on the smallish side. I didn't think the Domino could do tenons in that range but admit I haven't looked too closely at the new "bigger version".

JeffD

It goes in 2 3/4" on each side, biggest cutter is 9/16 thick. Thats 65% to 70% of an average door stile. I think they set it up to compete with industry standard dowel doors which IME run 5 1/2", but the dominos have a lot more surface area. There is definitely work which is beyond its capacity, but it sure does a lot. I've run double rows of dominos in to some thicker work, it really makes you think about how much you trust your glue! I tried a few joints with this thing when we got it, I couldn't break them with a sledge hammer, and I really tried.

I'm with David on the big is good thing with slot mortisers. My cheapo chinese mortiser will chuck a 5/8" cutter, but the user has to work hard to make lots of those happen. I spent some time at a place with an older Bacci, that thing was literally built like a tank, pretty sure you could clamp a 300# door to that table and mortise a lock box if required.

[Joe Calhoon]

We have a Domino XL we use for odd (angled and curved) window and door joinery where it is easier than using the Maka. I have owned several good manual horizontal mortisers. The Domino is as fast of faster than these. I think the best thing is the mortise is more precise than you get with a conventional slotter. Because of bit chatter with these. We run our own Mahogany tenons on a moulder because of the high cost but the fit of the Festo ones is better than we can do. It does take a steady hand to get accuracy with the Domino.
I think the downside is the Domino will probably not last as long as a good slot mortiser. Large production might get tedious with it and the better slotters will do accurate dowel joinery also.

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[Kent A Bathurst]

OK, Joe - that looks way cool.

Can you show a photo of those pieces joined? Trying to envision the product that goes with the wizardry..........

[David Davies]

There's a guy in Denver that periodically posts on Craigslist a tilting head Felder mortiser. He leaves it on Craigslist for a while and then it goes away only to come back a month or so later. I suspect he hasn't sold it yet.

Don't forget to consider the SCMI bandsaws. They're beasts and one of the previous posters, Erik Loza, was superb to work with when I bought my S600. Which I bought the year before I bought my AD941 from Fergus at Felder.

Dave

[Rick Fisher]

I have the Felder 900 Edge sander. If you have any questions, lemme know. I believe its actually made by ACM for Felder, but its a nicely built machine. I've played with the Kundig .. and the Langzauner. Both are IMO nicer machines than the Felder 900 .. both are more expensive too .. Ya gets what you pay for ..

When I say nicer. The Kundig has CNC controls for belt height, my Felder is hand crank. Both have a precision sanding unit on the other side.. The Kundig also has nicer tables .. but I don't want to take away from the Felder 900 .. its outstanding. Its also about 1000 lbs and offers little leverage for moving it ..

http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m455/jokerbird_photo/Felder%20Edge%20Sander/P1020240.jpg (http://s335.photobucket.com/user/jokerbird_photo/media/Felder%20Edge%20Sander/P1020240.jpg.html)

One thing I would add is that the dust collection actually works on the Felder 900 ..

On the mortiser, I believe the Griggio / Martin is the nicest slot mortiser out there.. You have nice taste in machinery .. :)

[Joe Calhoon]

OK, Joe - that looks way cool.

Can you show a photo of those pieces joined? Trying to envision the product that goes with the wizardry..........

Not sure if this is the same window. We do a lot of curves.

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[Larry Edgerton]

Ok Joe, once again you are pushing me over the fence. I have been debating buying an XL for a while, not sure as no one I know has one I can play with. I was looking at your curved piece and that is exactly the use I had in mind, stuff that is too hard to do a traditional M&T.

Please don't post any more pictures of your Martin stuff! ;)

Larry

[Peter Quinn]

Ok Joe, once again you are pushing me over the fence. I have been debating buying an XL for a while, not sure as no one I know has one I can play with. I was looking at your curved piece and that is exactly the use I had in mind, stuff that is too hard to do a traditional M&T.

Please don't post any more pictures of your Martin stuff! ;)

Larry

Larry, I like the Martin pics......it's the clamping press pics that are killing me! When I think of the hoops I have to jump through to clamp an assembly like that and get it square, makes me smile and cry at the same time to see Joe's shop.

on the domino XL, I'll reiterate, big fan. It's one of those tools that once we bought it people started using it to solve problems we couldn't remember how we had solved previously. If I had to do 50 of the same stiles if rather have a dedicated slotter with an indexing table, stops etc, but for short custom runs and one offs, takes more time to set one up than it does to get to clamps with a domino. We do a lot of cabinets with 1" frames these days, we have a pocket screw machine and clamp table but little frames like to twist and crack paint lines when racked a bit on install, dominos solve that.

[Larry Edgerton]

We do a lot of cabinets with 1" frames these days, we have a pocket screw machine and clamp table but little frames like to twist and crack paint lines when racked a bit on install, dominos solve that.

That was one of my questions I had. I do a lot of face frames with 1" frames and was not sure if the XL could work with that small of a size. I do traditional M&T joints now full width, but would like to speed it up and occasionally do the same thing in place. No problem doing a mortice in the end of a 1"x3/4" rail?

[Prashun Patel]

I have a Domino 700 (the large version). I can't imagine wanting tenons any longer than the max setting this one offers. I mill my own domino stock. By doing overlapping holes, you're not limited in your tenon width or depth. You can still do traditional M&T if you are willing to bevel your tenon ends.

It works on large tables and small stiles. I have the Seneca adapter and it works well and accurately.

I do think that if you 'start' with the Domino and decide you want the stationary machine for whatever reason, you'll be able to resell it for close to what you pay for it new.

One thing required is dust collection, tho. If you find it annoying to attach a hose to the unit every time, then this may not be a good option for you; without DC the accuracy can suffer.

I also think the Domino owners are right that the tool is far more versatile than a non-owner can imagine. If you're able to use floating tenons, it greatly reduces layout and marking time.

[Peter Quinn]

That was one of my questions I had. I do a lot of face frames with 1" frames and was not sure if the XL could work with that small of a size. I do traditional M&T joints now full width, but would like to speed it up and occasionally do the same thing in place. No problem doing a mortice in the end of a 1"x3/4" rail?

No problem. Festool makes a fixture that quickly attaches to the fence, it has a lateral position adjuster on each side, you can snug it up tight on a 1" rail. I actually like the big domino better than the little one for almost everything. The smaller one is capable of some very small thin slots but I almost never use anything that small, might be more relevant to others.

[Patrick Walsh]

1/2 mortises in hardwood beat you to death like the machine does not have the power to get it done without some added muscle?


I have run a Felder 250 for years. Nice machine but large 1/2"+ mortises of any volume can kind of beat you to death in hardwood. I bought a used Bacci and much prefer it.320168320169 Leaning over the Felder and operating the joystick gives me back problems but that may be unique to me. You do need to develop a touch to keep the long grain and end grain mortises exactly the same diameter, or use a rasp to finesse one. Dave

[Patrick Walsh]

Rick,

Nice machine. Im glad to hear you like it as this is probably the compromise for me between a Grizzle/Poermatic and the Kundig Unique S.
As you suggest it may be the problem and my biggest concern. I am actually scheming a way right now to devise a floor joist mounted I beam trolly and chain hoist to get these machines or rather my new AD941 down a 30" drop or three steps into my basement shop?


I have the Felder 900 Edge sander. If you have any questions, lemme know. I believe its actually made by ACM for Felder, but its a nicely built machine. I've played with the Kundig .. and the Langzauner. Both are IMO nicer machines than the Felder 900 .. both are more expensive too .. Ya gets what you pay for ..

When I say nicer. The Kundig has CNC controls for belt height, my Felder is hand crank. Both have a precision sanding unit on the other side.. The Kundig also has nicer tables .. but I don't want to take away from the Felder 900 .. its outstanding. Its also about 1000 lbs and offers little leverage for moving it ..

http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m455/jokerbird_photo/Felder%20Edge%20Sander/P1020240.jpg (http://s335.photobucket.com/user/jokerbird_photo/media/Felder%20Edge%20Sander/P1020240.jpg.html)

One thing I would add is that the dust collection actually works on the Felder 900 ..

On the mortiser, I believe the Griggio / Martin is the nicest slot mortiser out there.. You have nice taste in machinery .. :)