Help with Engineered Flooring. Anatomy Lesson 101

[Dev Emch]

Well Kiddies, I have a problem. Need to install a hardwood floor directly over concrete in a subgrade basement bedroom. I am out of my leaque here!

The experts are all saying that we need to use engineered flooring directly over the concrete. The floor needs to be cleaned, epoxy sealed and the floor glued down with a Bruce Floor adhesive. O.K., I am with you so far.

But what makes engineering flooring so domain applicable here? Whats it made from and what are the best ones out there? I have ran into versions made from cheesy ply with a tacky thin layer of hardwood on top. I have seen others made from three plys... wear layer species, followed by birch followed by species under layer. The birch grain runs orthogonal to the wear layer grain.

I am an old school guy who uses 3/4 inch solid strip flooring. So I need a bit of an education as to who makes the best engineered stuff and any good pointers on installing this stuff. Thanks in advance...

[Jim Becker]

Why wouldn't a floating floor be acceptable? There are some very nice products available (including real wood wear layers) that don't demand the glue and will go with the flow of hot/cold/moist/dry changes over the seasons. Fast and easy to install, too.

[Dan Oliphant]

Dev,
I installed the Bruce Armstrong engineered hardwood flooring in my family room last year. My research showed that each flooring manufacturer makes not so good stuff, good stuff and better stuff.
Actually look at the samples, and look at their web sites for more info on the flooring construction process. The objective is to select a material that will have little movement from expansion and contraction, and be capable of being refinished at least once.
Flooring is just like cars and woodworking equipment, it will boil down to what you are happy with in the end.
The engineered flooring is not "domain" applicable as mush as it is another installation option.

[Dev Emch]

I guess those will also work. But same question applies.... how are they made? I guess my gut reaction is that if you laminate a wear layer onto a substrate, you also need to back that substrate with an equal quantity of similar wood to keep it all from warping. That is how many of us make laminated furniture tops. Why would flooring be any different? Lumber Liquadators told me that is a "load of something". That its only a marketing gimmick by other companies. I did not tell them that this balance technique is used all the time to make decent veneer table tops. If you ask David Marks, he will advocate the balanced lamination. If you ask Lumber Liquadators, they will advocate cheap ply with a single wear layer. Floating or not, doesnt the same issues still apply? And who is right when it comes down to flooring?

[Lee DeRaud]

I guess my gut reaction is that if you laminate a wear layer onto a substrate, you also need to back that substrate with an equal quantity of similar wood to keep it all from warping. That is how many of us make laminated furniture tops. Why would flooring be any different?Well, for one thing, you're dealing with 2-3" wide strips of the stuff instead of a piece the size of a tabletop. Ask yourself, what is it you think it's going to do?

Another question you might want to ask yourself is, if you're using solid wood flooring, you're only finishing one surface. Doesn't that violate a "balance" rule just as badly, if not worse?

(And yes, I see David Marks gluing 1/16" veneers to both sides of 1/2" or thicker birch ply and I wonder: just what exactly is that 1/16" layer on the back side going to do that a piece of ply that would support my weight can't do by itself?)

[Steve Schoene]

That half inch ply is going to cup when the veneer wood moves differently than the substrate. I've seen it happen with 1/40" veneer, not just heavy 1/16" veneer, if the material is not held in place by the rest of the construction.

[Ken Garlock]

HI Dev, first thing is to go to a borg and take a look at laminate flooring like Pergo and at an engineered product.

When we built, I looked briefly at wood flooring but got outvoted. What I did find is that the laminate flooring has only a "printed" pattern on top of who knows what. The engineered flooring has a real honest to goodness 1/8 inch of real wood that is backed with some other product. Sorry, I don't know what the backing is. What this meant to me is that you CANNOT resurface laminate flooring with a floor sander; whereas you can sand the engineered flooring at least once and may be twice.

Under no conditions would I use the floating floor. You will get a noise when walking on it. Each little plank will act as sounding board for any hard shoe sole material, like womens high heels.

My opinion is worth what you paid for it. :)

[Chris Padilla]

Dev,

My father and I did his basement way back in the early 80s. We Liquid Nailed and used one of those hammers powered by a 22-caliber round to drive nails into the concrete. I'm guessing it was all 1x material...not even PT. I guess you call those sleepers. Then we put your favorite 3/4" material on top. I guess you can't afford that much thickness lost for the bedroom?

Anway, floor is still fine today...it is pretty dry in Colorado so we haven't had any water problems but today I would seal the concrete and us PT sleepers for sure.

[Dev Emch]

Chris..
Your right. Doing it like Lou did his shop is the cat's meow. But that involves sealing the concrete, power nailing or bolting down sleepers such as a 2x4 PT layed on its side, filing the gaps with pink foam and laying down a 3/4 inch ply subfloor. Then cover with roofing felt, (i.e. tar paper... the ultimate vapor barrier) and then shooting down 3/4 inch flooring. When I did the initial calculation, I found this would raise the floor about 3 inches in total. This would leave a nasty little step up on the bedroom entry. I could reset the door header and save the door entry height but I would loose the overall height in the bedroom.

Also bear in mind that sub floor ply can delaminate. But since its nailed and screwed down, this issue is not as serious as it sounds and the delamination is often localized. But if you glue the ply to the concrete, you have issues with no mechanical fastners keeping the plys together and you need a moisture proof material as its in direct contact with the concrete. Therego, you need to use the sleepers. Also, I have tons of the long flooring nails and I am not sure that just using a 3/4 inch ply subfloor will be thick enough to keep even the shorter flooring nails from poking though the bottom and trying to penetrate the concrete.

Did I mention how much I hate converting basement space into living space! Moisture and mold. Dank Aromas. Dealing with uneven concrete.

I did price some Bruce Armstrong maple flooring at Lowes last night. These guys want about $6.00 to $6.50 per square foot!!! OUUUUCCCCH! Folks, the last batch of timbeck select grade unfinished 3.25 inch strip maple that I bought was around $5.00 per square foot (retail) and this is the good stuff. Pristine and 3/4 inch thick! The armstrong stuff only has a 1/8 inch wear layer on it. As for the rest of it, who knows. Looks like whatever secondary wood was available at the time. Poplar, spruce, etc.

So I am tempted to just redo the whole lower apartment consisting of a living room/kitchenette, two bedrooms and a tiny bath and just sleeper the whole darn thing. We got a good deal on the house anyway and now I get to see how messed up some things really are. I guess I could just throw down an oyster colored nylon cut pile wall to wall carpet and paint the walls hospital white like every other home builder does these days. Yucccckkk.

[markgoodall]

I've laid half my downstairs (800 sq.ft out of 1600 sq.ft) with laminate flooring. I got the highest end Shaw laminate flooring they make (from the manufacturer) plus I've used a thick felt underlayment (can't remeber the name, but if you want it, email me and I'll check). I've used 6mil plastic and the thick felt underlayment directly on our concrete slab (no basement here) with the laminate flooring over that. I highly recommend it.

I've installed subfloors on 3/4" ply on 2x3 sleepers in my basements in Canada which really make walking on cold conrete acceptable. That's impossible to do here on a slab foundation but I've found that the thick padding and the laminate flooring really make the slab nice to walk on now.

When I looked around, I had solid wood, engineered, and laminate flooring. Although there are some new floating solid wood flooring systems out there, I haven't heard anything good about them. Engineered wood is basically a thin veneer of hardwood on plywood of MDF. You get the look and the expense of real wood, but without the long life advantages of real wood. Laminate flooring is basically a very thin layer of plastic-type lamiante on MDF. The layer REALLY is as tough as advertised..... I got orange sparks off it when I used my CMS to cut it.

TIme will tell if it really does last 25-30 years. But for a basement, I'd install plywood sleeps and carpet, or laminate.

Every manafacture makes several grades of flooring. Shaw, Mohawk, Pergo, etc. have 10yr, 15yr, 25yr, etc rated flooring. Remarkably the shortest life (according to their own ratings) is hardwoord, followed by engineered and laminate with the longest. Of course there is overlap. I seem to recall solid wood having 10yr or 15yr, engineered having 15yr, 20 yr and laminate flooring having 10yr, 15yr, 25yr. Or course with real hardwood you can double that life again and again each time you resand and finish the floor which is impossible to do with engineered or laminate flooring. I guess the ratings relate to how long before you have to DO something to the floor, with real wood you'll have to sand, and with the others you'll have to replace.

As far as pointers go, let use know which you choose as the tricks vary depending on which you choose.


Happy Woodworking!

[markgoodall]

Balanced laminations......

I've got to agree with you there. The engineered flooring I've seen is NOT balanced. The top and bottom surfaces are completely different. The top is finish (poly,etc) and the bottom is raw unfinished wood.

With the laminate flooring it's defintely balanced. There is a layer of the plastic lamiante on both sides. Pretty on the top, plan on the bottom, with an extra coating of zinc-oxide or something liek that. Whatever it is it makes orange sparks when I cut it with my CMS blade (see my other post).

I've always heard that any laminated surface must be -- top and bottom surfaces must both have the same coating. Perhaps that's not the case. It's certainly not the case with solid hardwood flooring, is it.


Happy Woodworking!

[markgoodall]

One of my clients is a huge (one of the top 5 in the US in their market) flooring installer. From what I learned, no matter what the manufacturers say, engineered flooring can't easily or effectively be resurfaced, and since it's surface isn't as strong and scratch resistant as laminate flooring, laminate flooring has a longer life span.
The felt (not foam) underlayment takes care of the noise issue.

The only real problem is that it's not real wood surface. I hate that it's not. I love wood so much. I'll be putting solid maple down in the upstairs half of the house, but for the main floor slab, as much as I hated not getting wood, laminate floorign was the best solution in my particular case.

Well, of course the best solution would be to sell the house and move to house with a pool and a basement and a three car garage. Ten I'd have solid wood floors everywhere...... but switching houses wasn't an option ;)

If wear, life and moisture wasn't an issue, I'd certainly take real wood or engineered wood over laminate. Real wood is well..... real.

Perhaps the biggest problem with both engineered and lamiate floorign is experience. It just hasn't been around long enough to really know if it lasts 25 years, or if it can be resanded, or what happens. It's just too new to really know.

The one thing for sure, interior flooring is easier and longer lasting that any outside flooring (grass)..... I just sodded 1/3 of my front lawn last weekend. Grass is so hard to keep alive.



Happy Woodworking!

[Lee DeRaud]

With the laminate flooring it's defintely balanced. There is a layer of the plastic lamiante on both sides. Pretty on the top, plan on the bottom, with an extra coating of zinc-oxide or something liek that. Whatever it is it makes orange sparks when I cut it with my CMS blade (see my other post).I installed a bunch of the mid/high-range Pergo (the older glue-up style) and have no complaint with it. But the bottom side is definitely not plastic laminate: it's paper (possibly plastic coated) and peels off rather easily. I suspect it's just there as a additional vapor barrier. Not that it really needs it: I've got scraps out in the garage that got soaked when the rain blew in, still as flat as the day they came out of the box.

I think the sparks you see are from the top layer, I get them too. They may even be from the structural layer: that stuff is way harder than MDF, closer to phenolic.

[JayStPeter]

One thing about engineered flooring that seems to contradict a selling point - it doesn't seem water resistant to me. My parents had a pipe burst a few months after their house was built and their pergo floor was destroyed. From what I saw, it did worse than solid wood would have in the same situation. I had a pipe burst in my old house and the wood floors were easily repaired (after a month or two of drying out). Just thought I'd throw that in since it seemed like one of the reasons Dev was considering it for the basement.

Mark - I agree about the lawn. Sheesh, the crabgrass sure doesn't have problems with crappy soil and lack of water though.

Edit - apparently I contradict Lee and others. This was in the early 1990s and the Pergo appeared to be phoenolic on top of a plywood core. The advantage was that their dog wouldn't tear it up. I don't think there were any low or high end variants at the time, just Pergo. I stand by my opinion of the ply-core products. But it sounds like there are some different options now.
I have definitely seen some new engineered flooring options that would be water resistant, but haven't looked into any "wood look" products. The ones I have been wanting to check into look like stone or ceramic tile.

Jay

[Dev Emch]

One approaches all these new options with an open mind. But slowly, the pioneers in the field begin to unravel the real truth and often, the truth is not as pleasant as the sales folks would like you to believe.

I got some more quotes today. The maple floating, engineered flooring product was quoted at $7.99 per foot and the wider, 5 or 6 inch wide stock which resembles a wide plank floor was quoted at a bit over $10.00 per square foot. First of all, this does not include any of the foam or felt underlayment. Second, this is the material only. Not installed. Third, this flooring has 1/8 inch real wood with a layer of cross oriented pine followed by a base layer of either pine or spruce. This flooring was a somewhat over 1/2 inch thick. With the foam or felt, it will raise the floor by 3/4 inch.

To give you an idea, the current spot price for any quantity to the public for timbeck 3.25 inch strip maple unfinished is $5.75 per square foot. That is a select grade 3/4 inch solid maple floor trucked in from Canada.

I am having a very hard time accepting the price of this engineered flooring! Solid maple is expensive and we all know that. But paying more for an engineered floor strikes me as insanity! If your going to charge me for a series of plywood strips, fine! But lets price it accordingly. Spruce and pine plywood is not rock maple.

So this old schooler is looking at this new fangled way of doing business and wondering what all the hub bub is about. I am no better off buying and installing this engineered flooring than if I float the whole lower basement floor and just use the "cheap" stuff. That is right kiddies, here the "cheap" stuff is solid, select grade, 3/4 inch REAL rock maple in 3.25 inch strips. Granted I have to raise the whole floor by almost 3 inches by the time I am done. But unless I sell the house to "Shack", I dont think its going to matter much.

The intermediate expense is in buying new T&G plywood subflooring. This stuff will cost about $25 to $35 dollars per sheet. I also need some PT 2x4 sleepers and the foam. So in the long run, its a wash when it comes to the money invested. But I walk out of there with a real hardwood floor and a 3 inch service step from the garage to the lower apartment. Whoopieee!

So I have given this all one more chance. Once again, I think the old school way of doing things is better and i am opting for it. Equal or slighly less money and massively superior quality.

[Michael Perata]

Dev

If you are concerned about raising your floor with the maple plank, just leave out the plywood. The 3.5"x.75" T&G planking is as strong as the ply with less bounce.

[Bill Fields]

Pergo--$3.60/ft. + installation + large area rugs
Pretty foolproof--

Bill Fields