Problems with a sewage pump

[Wade Lippman]

I have a sewage pump in my basement for a powder room. It is plugged into a single "dedicated" outlet/circuit. I want to add an alarm, but nearest outlet on another circuit is 30 feet away.
Only solutions I see are to change the outlet to a duplex GFCI, or run an extension cord for the alarm.

The manufacturer says the pump cannot be used on a GFCI because there will be nuisance trips. He also warns against putting the alarm (which draws 2a only when it is sounding) on an extension cord because it can get unplugged. I have another inquire into him asking that if I can accept the risk of it getting unplugged (I am the only person to go in that room and I will not unplug it; and even if I do, it has a battery backup that chirps when it gets low) is there any reason not to use an extension cord.

So, two questions:
1) Any code reason I can't use an extension cord on the alarm?
2) If the pump can't be installed on a GFCI, and code no longer allows an exception for pumps from a GFCI, how can these pumps be used today. (Presumably my existing outlet is grandfathered from 2005.

[Lee Schierer]

I have three sump pumps (pre-2000) all on GFCI circuits and haven't had a trip in the more than 10 years since I installed the GFCI's. I had a partially flooded basement once and ran some portable pumps off the GFCI circuits in the basement with no trips.

Can you add a hard wired outlet from the location that is 30 feet away that would be in your room with the pump?

I think I would change the single outlet to a duplex and plug my alarm in directly. They make safety brackets for freezers and refrigerators to prevent the plugs from coming out. Use those to insure your pump and alarm stay plugged in.

I can't speak as to what the code says, but maybe Julie will chime in here.

[Wade Lippman]

Adding an outlet to a distant circuit is possible, but there is an awful lot of stuff in between that can't be moved. Wouldn't be easy.

Changing the single to a duplex would be a code violation.

The manufacturer says the pump can't be run on a GFCI; I haven't tried it. The consequences of having a sewage pump fail is rather more than having a sump pump fail.

[Justin Koenen]

Wade, I have an alarm which uses several AA batteries and it s signal is similar to a smoke alarm. It works! Bought at the local chain farm store. Replaced batteries once in eight years.

[Brian Elfert]

If you want to be code compliant you are not supposed to use an extension cord for a permanent install. The reality is there are probably a million plus houses with extension cords used as permanent connections.

I moved the sump pump in my previous house off of GFCI because it tripped once and I had water everywhere. Probably code requires a GFI, but I wasn't about to deal with flooding every few months. The septic pump in my current house is supposed to on GFCI too, but the previous owner did not have it on GFCI and when I added GFI breaker it trips immediately. I put it back on a regular breaker until I have time to troubleshoot it.

[Phil Thien]

According to this page:

http://ecmweb.com/code-basics/nec-requirements-ground-fault-circuit-interrupters-gfci

What about crawl spaces and unfinished areas of the basement? Once again, all 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles installed within a dwelling unit crawl space [210.8(4)] or in each unfinished portion of a basement not intended as a habitable room but used for storage or as a work area [210.8(5)], must be GFCI-protected. However, the Code does note a few exceptions to these rules: GFCI protection is not required for receptacles that are not readily accessible or are located on a dedicated branch circuit and identified for a specific cord-and-plug-connected appliance, such as a sump pump.

So it seems like there may be an "out" for your sewage pump. So I might try to piggyback on that "out" by replacing the receptacle with a duplex receptacle, you can argue that the alarm is to protect from sewage backups and the sewage pump doesn't work with GFCI.

An alternative may be to add a GFCI AFTER the sewage pump receptacle, so the GFCI would be used downstream. Still maybe a PITA to wire but not as bad as pulling 30' of new cable.

Another alternative may be replace your circuit breaker with something less than 15a if that will be sufficient for everything on the circuit (I have no idea how much a sewage pump uses), and then use a duplex receptacle to replace the current receptacle.

[Wade Lippman]

According to this page:

http://ecmweb.com/code-basics/nec-requirements-ground-fault-circuit-interrupters-gfci

What about crawl spaces and unfinished areas of the basement? Once again, all 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles installed within a dwelling unit crawl space [210.8(4)] or in each unfinished portion of a basement not intended as a habitable room but used for storage or as a work area [210.8(5)], must be GFCI-protected. However, the Code does note a few exceptions to these rules: GFCI protection is not required for receptacles that are not readily accessible or are located on a dedicated branch circuit and identified for a specific cord-and-plug-connected appliance, such as a sump pump.



I actually found that article also, but noticed the date was 2002. As of 2008 that exception went away.
My changing it to a duplex would void the grandfathering, though I think a dedicated circuit requires a single outlet anyhow.

[Phil Thien]

I actually found that article also, but noticed the date was 2002. As of 2008 that exception went away.
My changing it to a duplex would void the grandfathering, though I think a dedicated circuit requires a single outlet anyhow.

Ugh, sorry for the inaccurate stuff.

One last thought: Is there any option for hard-wiring the alarm you're adding?

[Jerry Bruette]

I wouldn't put the alarm on the same circuit as the pump. If that breaker trips you'll be without an alarm.:eek:

[Brian Elfert]

My septic alarm and septic pump were on the same circuit when I bought the house. The pump was connected with Romex that someone put a plug on and plugged into an outlet. I ran a dedicated circuit to a junction box and properly hardwired the septic pump.

This was just one of many electrical problems that required rewiring most of the house.

[Wade Lippman]

The plumber (I am not about to dig into a sewage pump!) says he will check with the building inspector, but is certain he will approve changing to a duplex as long there both are occupied.
I don't have much experience with building inspectors, does that seem adequate? If someone complains in 10 years when I sell the house, can I go back to the single outlet or would the grandfathering be lost?

[Phil Thien]

The plumber (I am not about to dig into a sewage pump!) says he will check with the building inspector, but is certain he will approve changing to a duplex as long there both are occupied.
I don't have much experience with building inspectors, does that seem adequate? If someone complains in 10 years when I sell the house, can I go back to the single outlet or would the grandfathering be lost?

It all depends on what the building inspector and the buyer's home inspector say.

Municipal inspections at the time of sale are getting more commonplace around here. If they have a fit and want it changed, you will have to come to an agreement at that time.

The house my daughter just bought required leveling of concrete (driveway and patio), but the previous owner chose to have the driveway replaced (score). The inspector also required all the receptacles be replaced with grounded, and a few other things which were more trivial.

BUT, the receptacles in the unfinished basement (which are not GFCI) were apparently okay.

[Brian Elfert]

I don't believe there are many cities that require city inspections of houses at sale. How would a city inspector even know you changed an outlet from single to duplex as long in you did it properly?

If you're worried about it get an electrical permit and have an inspection done. Really, older houses have electrical work done all the time without permits. As long as it isn't a hack job you should have no issues selling the house later. I got a permit when I rewired most of my house, but it was way more than one outlet.

[Wade Lippman]

I don't believe there are many cities that require city inspections of houses at sale. How would a city inspector even know you changed an outlet from single to duplex as long in you did it properly?

If you're worried about it get an electrical permit and have an inspection done. Really, older houses have electrical work done all the time without permits. As long as it isn't a hack job you should have no issues selling the house later. I got a permit when I rewired most of my house, but it was way more than one outlet.

I am not concerned about the town, I am concerned about somebody buying the house, getting an inspection, and then demanding that I replace the sewage pump with one on a GFCI. As it stands now, I am code compliant because it was done in 2005. I am not looking for trouble.

Might sound paranoid, but I sold my old house 3 years ago and the buyer demanded $30,000 in repairs. Needless to say the deal fell through, but it took another 3 months to find a buyer.

[Rich Enders]

From memory ours has the black water pump plugged into a single (non-GFCI) outlet. However that plug allows for something else to be plugged into it. Like piggybacking.

In this case the alarm is piggybacked into the pump plug.

[Mark Blatter]

We built a house in 93 that had a sump in the basement because the septic tank was inlet was higher so there was no choice. In the first six months we had a flooded basement three times. Fortunately all three times it was the washer draining and not the toilet so the mess was, well, less messy.

The first time it was the result of the pump being plugged into a dedicated GFI circuit. All it took was the tiniest stray electrons and it popped. The electrician had mistakenly put the GFI on it when it was not supposed to have one. At the time though, they (builder and electrician thought it was an issue with the pump, so didn't change out the GFI). The second time it flooded, they finally got it figured out and replaced the GFI. The third time it really was a bad pump and the pump company paid for the clean up. At that point I was ready to make them all live in the basement with the water. I also vowed I would never again have a house with a sump pump in the basement.

Unless things have changed dramatically, do not put the pump on a GFI because the 'nuisance' trips are serious pains in the butt. I would just run the extension cord with the battery back up. You can always pay to add a hardwired circuit in the future is have too.

[Brian Elfert]

Most sump pumps are just for ground water, not sewage. I do have a sewage pump, but it is out in the septic tank and not in the house. If the pump and alarm both failed I guess you could have a backup into the house. I need to have the line to my septic tank replaced so I should see if they can put a backflow prevention valve in just in case.

I looked at a foreclosed house where a burst line caused the septic tank to fill up and the house flooded. The bank had to gut the house and do mold remediation.

[Phil Thien]

I am not concerned about the town, I am concerned about somebody buying the house, getting an inspection, and then demanding that I replace the sewage pump with one on a GFCI. As it stands now, I am code compliant because it was done in 2005. I am not looking for trouble.

Might sound paranoid, but I sold my old house 3 years ago and the buyer demanded $30,000 in repairs. Needless to say the deal fell through, but it took another 3 months to find a buyer.

That is a nightmare scenario for sure. And I think it is becoming more common (unreasonable buyers). Sure would be nice if there was a way to weed that crap out.

[Jerome Stanek]

That is a nightmare scenario for sure. And I think it is becoming more common (unreasonable buyers). Sure would be nice if there was a way to weed that crap out.

I would see if I could have a clause included that stated that for every day after the sale they would be required to pay rent and any charges that are incurred to return the ownership

[Al Launier]

I have three sump pumps (pre-2000) all on GFCI circuits and haven't had a trip in the more than 10 years since I installed the GFCI's. I had a partially flooded basement once and ran some portable pumps off the GFCI circuits in the basement with no trips.

Can you add a hard wired outlet from the location that is 30 feet away that would be in your room with the pump?

I think I would change the single outlet to a duplex and plug my alarm in directly. They make safety brackets for freezers and refrigerators to prevent the plugs from coming out. Use those to insure your pump and alarm stay plugged in.

I can't speak as to what the code says, but maybe Julie will chime in here.

This suggestion seems like the most reasonable.
If not, could you just use & rely on a longer life backup battery?

[Brian Elfert]

If you are concerned about the lack of GFCI protection when selling just put in a normal duplex receptacle now and install a GFCI when it comes time to sell. GFCI receptacles are less than $10 for a cheap one.

[Wade Lippman]

If you are concerned about the lack of GFCI protection when selling just put in a normal duplex receptacle now and install a GFCI when it comes time to sell. GFCI receptacles are less than $10 for a cheap one.


It won't be real impressive if the buyer's inspector testes the sewage pump and it trips the GFCI.
Even if it doesn't fail for the inspection it would probably be fraud if they have problems later on.

[Jerome Stanek]

is there a way to hard wire the pump in

[Brian Elfert]

It won't be real impressive if the buyer's inspector testes the sewage pump and it trips the GFCI.
Even if it doesn't fail for the inspection it would probably be fraud if they have problems later on.

Why fraud? The NEC requires a GFCI for a pump and so the seller put in a GFCI. If the pump trips the GFCI every time then the pump needs to be fixed. The GFCI may never trip for 20 years or it may trip once a year.

People fix up all kinds of things when they prepare a house for sale so that sellers will buy it and so that a home inspector won't find issues.

[Phil Thien]

People fix up all kinds of things when they prepare a house for sale so that sellers will buy it and so that a home inspector won't find issues.

Yeah but much of what is done does amount to fraud. You can't install a pump in a way contrary to the manufacturer's recommendations w/o disclosing that, especially if you're doing so to make the house sale go smoothly.

Because what could happen is this: Wade sells the house. Two months into living there, the new owners flush and trip the GFCI, which results in a backup. Then they call the pump manufacturer and the pump manufacturer says "yeah, these don't work on GFCI, and we remember talking to Wade and telling him that."

Next thing you know Wade is paying for a new GFCI-compatible pump and labor.

Happens all the time.

Not only that, but Wade is taking the honest, high-road here. Trying to do what is right, to make sure all requirements are obliged. Never should we encourage people to do anything short of that.

[Wade Lippman]

If anyone is interested, I solved the problem by extending the sensor cable by 20 feet with 18awg and putting the alarm next to an outlet. Manufacturer said it could have been extended 100'. They should put that in the instructions!