How to miter this small box?

[David Ragan]

Am making a small box, 6 1/2 by 81/2 and 2 1/2" tall.

I would like to miter the corners, put 2-3 ebony splines in.

Is this thick enough, or is a butt joint the way to go?

There are other embellishments, so want a plain of joinery as possible, to not detract.

As you can see, it is roughly QS roughly 7/16" finished thickness.

Observe....not sure what kinda wood this is:

319903

Box will hold pencils, etc no real stress (famous last words)

As always-many thanks:)

[Mike Henderson]

You can miter the corners and it will hold just fine. No need for splines unless you want the decoration. You can see my tutorial on making a box with mitered corners here (http://www.mikes-woodwork.com/BoxTutorial.htm).

Mike

[Eric Schatz]

I would do it the same as you do a regular miter. I would use a donkey ear.

[Jim Koepke]

This is the video you may want to watch:

http://video.pbs.org/video/2263884494/

It is called the eleven groove box. It builds a box as you describe with splines.

There are many other ways to do this without visible joinery. One would be blind dovetails.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

I would do it the same as you do a regular miter. I would use a donkey ear.

In case you are not familiar with a "donkey ear:"

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?157217-Eight-Eared-Donkey

jtk

[David Ragan]

Actually I was thinking about this:

http://www.woodworkingnetwork.com/sites/woodworking/files/Rockler55153-13_large_spline_jigRGB.jpg (http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CAcQjRxqFQoTCPDYwPHvtccCFYtyPgodGpgMtw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.woodworkingnetwork.com%2Fcust om-woodworking%2Fprofessional-woodshop-tools%2FHow-It-Works-Dress-Up-Box-Joints-With-Decorative-Splines-294216051.html&ei=FdjUVbD6Jovl-QGasLK4Cw&bvm=bv.99804247,d.cWw&psig=AFQjCNE99dEh06eqGGxb5NwlvsA0N3LUQQ&ust=1440098708148769)

with just small plain spline keys, not DT.

The decorative elements will be a little ebony stringing, nothing elaborate. So, I thought 2-3 ebony splines per corner would be cool-flat, simple. Will those alone hold the joint?

I built a small knife cabinet a while back and had to make the dang swinging door frames 3-4 times cause the 45* miters just did not hold.

Yep-have a donkey ear around here somewhere

And blind DT? That sounds really hard, right?

[Jim Koepke]

The blind dovetail isn't as difficult as it may sound.

Finding the episode of the Woodwright's Shop where it was demonstrated is likely more challenging.

jtk

[Mike Henderson]

[QUOTE=Jim Koepke;2457251]The blind dovetail isn't as difficult as it may sound.

Finding the episode of the Woodwright's Shop where it was demonstrated is likely more challenging.

The blind dovetail is certainly possible but it doesn't show - the joint looks like a standard miter joint. My opinion is that there are several other joinery techniques that are quite strong and much easier to do. For example, putting in some ff biscuits will make a miter joint, for a box as you describe, very strong. I show how to put in ff biscuits in a tutorial I did on making a tray. If interested, I can send you a link.

Mike

[Lee Schierer]

What you have to remember with miters is that it is almost an end grain joint. End grain will suck up a lot of glue. When you get ready to glue it up, apply a thin layer of glue to both sides of each joint. You can even thin out your glue 50% and prime the joint before applying enough un-thinned glue for the final glue up. This prevents glue starvation which is a common cause for miter joint failure.

[Mike Henderson]

I wanted to test the strength of a glued miter joint so I made a few, mostly in 1/2" material, glued them up and then tried to break them the next day. While I could break them, it wasn't easy. For small boxes, my opinion is that a glued miter joint is plenty strong.

I would encourage others to do the same test and make your own decision.

Mike

[BTW, the easiest way to do this is to make a box - four sides. It's easiest to clamp with a strap clamp. The cut the two long sides in half. Use that to try to break the joint. Trying to glue a single miter joint is pretty tough.]

[David Ragan]

[QUOTE=Jim Koepke;2457251]For example, putting in some ff biscuits will make a miter joint, for a box as you describe, very strong. I show how to put in ff biscuits in a tutorial I did on making a tray. If interested, I can send you a link.

Mike

That would be great if you would please



What you have to remember with miters is that it is almost an end grain joint. End grain will suck up a lot of glue. When you get ready to glue it up, apply a thin layer of glue to both sides of each joint. You can even thin out your glue 50% and prime the joint before applying enough un-thinned glue for the final glue up. This prevents glue starvation which is a common cause for miter joint failure.

Yep it's the end grain situation that bugs me, plus this wood feels a little oily like a wipe w acetone before glue....what Mike says above about strength of joint is encouraging

[Derek Cohen]

Hi David

Another option is to shoot the edges with a shooting board and donkeys ear such as this one ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/BuildingaMitredPencilBoxwithaShootingBoard_html_m5 36ec68c.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/BuildingaMitredPencilBoxwithaShootingBoard_html_3e 8bf3e4.jpg

...making this box ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/BuildingaMitredPencilBoxwithaShootingBoard_html_m3 ce43486.jpg

link: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/BuildingaMitredPencilBoxwithaShootingBoard.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Karl Andersson]

David,
I guess we think alike because I first thought you meant a vertical spline and was going to suggest what you illustrated (without dovetails, of course). As all have said, normally, such a small box would hold with glue, but with an oily wood, I'd be a little concerned about my ability to get it glued and would also want to reinforce the joint with something structural.

One option to mitering and splining it would be to make it like a joiner would (kinda)- rabbet the end of either the long or short boards to about half or 1/3 it's thickness and the rabbet as wide as the thickness of the other board and do a "lapped butt joint" (I am sure I just made that up- joiners please chime in). You could then "secure" the joint by drilling through the side of the rabbeted piece and into the end grain of the other, then pin it with glued-in ebony or other contrasting wood square pegs. Somewhat decorative, less obtrusive than the splines, might be as good holding as a glued miter. This was done a lot on the joiner's boxes using wood or iron nails, but they also nailed the bottom on, so that may have added to the strength. the drawing on the right shows a double-rabbet, allowing pegs on both sides of the joint.

Either way, the spacing of the splines or pegs can be altered to make a simple pattern (or morse code)

Karl

319946

[George Bokros]

Hi David

Another option is to shoot the edges with a shooting board and donkeys ear such as this one ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/BuildingaMitredPencilBoxwithaShootingBoard_html_m5 36ec68c.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/BuildingaMitredPencilBoxwithaShootingBoard_html_3e 8bf3e4.jpg

...making this box ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/BuildingaMitredPencilBoxwithaShootingBoard_html_m3 ce43486.jpg

link: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/BuildingaMitredPencilBoxwithaShootingBoard.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

Wow nice box and nice shooting board

[Derek Cohen]

Thanks George.

The point is that a simple mitred box is very quick and easy to make with a donkey ear.

Joint one long board. Plough the grooves. Saw 2 sides and 2 ends. Mitre all sides. Glue together.

On a box with figure such as this (it is Tiger Myrtle), you do not want dovetails. Mitred corners make more sense. Splines are neither needed nor wanted.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/BuildingaMitredPencilBoxwithaShootingBoard_html_34 1b6791.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

Plain miters are surprisingly strong, and FWIW if the panel on top and bottom are integral or have an inside frame work then the miter will be supported.

[Phil Thien]

I agree w/ Mike and Brian, miters are surprisingly strong. Tested individually, as mike noted, they can be broken but require considerable force. Tested with four pieces glued up, any force you try to apply to one joint is fairly equally distributed to the others, so it takes a pretty good whack to the floor to break one.

[Pat Barry]

Thanks George.

The point is that a simple mitred box is very quick and easy to make with a donkey ear.

Derek

So, whats your trick for accurately making the 45 degree donkey ear? Just trial and error? Any adjustments?

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Pat

There are a couple of articles on my website about building these and demonstrating them ..


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/ShootingforPerfection_html_63f3db76.jpg Donkey’s Ear


Rear of Donkeys Ear – dovetailed reinforcement. You can also see the rear of the connection to the man fence.


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/ShootingforPerfection_html_m369d709f.jpg


The underside has four levelling feet, similar to these ..

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/Setting%20Up%20and%20Using%20a%20Shooting%20Board4 _html_2fa6eac0.jpg



Fences connect via a bolt through the main fence. This provides both a solid connection plus micro-adjustability for squareness.


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/ShootingforPerfection_html_11842143.jpg

Article link: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/ShootingforPerfection.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Pat Barry]

Thanks Derek. I figured there should be a way to adjust it so you can get the 45 angle needed. Your method looks very well thought out.

[David Ragan]

OK guys, plain miter it is. I didn't realize that it was that strong being end grain.

As has been said, the bottom will lend strength also; I'll glue it instead of floating it just to be sure.....

Derek-all your stuff is really inspiring! Thanks for posting that.

I'll scope out Mike's ff biscuit tutorial probably later tonite or tomorrow AM

I'll post when I get done.

Thanks everyone.