Dovetail difficulties

[Dan Forman]

I've been having a hard time sawing clean dovetails. I am using a Tashiro Hardware, Queen dovetail saw, and it seems to have a bit of wanderlust and it heads for the scribe line. Now, I watched the Ron Cosman video, and he cuts his tails in just a few strokes once he gets the saw going, whereas it takes me quite a few strokes to get to the line. He waxes poetically about the virtues of the Lie Neilson saw. So, I'm wondering, would I be better off with one of those?

Though the saw I'm using produces a thin kerf, the blade is also very thin and flexible, and there is still plenty of room for it to rattle around in the kerf, resulting in a cut which is not very smooth. I'm trying not to put much pressure on the saw, and concentrating on keeping my arm moving in a straight line. Is there something I'm missing here? I have practically no prior experience using hand tools, so don't have a lot to go on. I have a bunch of books, but they just lay out the steps of what to do, but not how to do it, the basic mechanics of the stroke.

I have done a fair number of practice cuts, just sawing to a line, straight and angled, trying different approaches to cutting. Some work less well than others, but nothing consistently good yet. I have also been making a few single tail practice joints.

I like the feel of cutting on the pull stroke, but wonder if I would be better off with the stiffer LN saw. Is the Western-Eastern thing just a matter of pull vs push, or is there some advantage in the stiffer, more aggressive cutting blade? I'm sure that my saw, in the hands of someone more experienced, would make an acceptable cut. Any thoughts you might have on the subject will be greatly appreciated.

Dan

[Mark Singer]

Dan,

Are you using the queen blade in the handle with the back which is the Quen handle. I have both type of saws and I have the LN saw which is very good. It comes to to preference and practice...Try both and see which works better for you. Try moving your body to align the cut with your sholder.


I've been having a hard time sawing clean dovetails. I am using a Tashiro Hardware, Queen dovetail saw, and it seems to have a bit of wanderlust and it heads for the scribe line. Now, I watched the Ron Cosman video, and he cuts his tails in just a few strokes once he gets the saw going, whereas it takes me quite a few strokes to get to the line. He waxes poetically about the virtues of the Lie Neilson saw. So, I'm wondering, would I be better off with one of those?

Though the saw I'm using produces a thin kerf, the blade is also very thin and flexible, and there is still plenty of room for it to rattle around in the kerf, resulting in a cut which is not very smooth. I'm trying not to put much pressure on the saw, and concentrating on keeping my arm moving in a straight line. Is there something I'm missing here? I have practically no prior experience using hand tools, so don't have a lot to go on. I have a bunch of books, but they just lay out the steps of what to do, but not how to do it, the basic mechanics of the stroke.

I have done a fair number of practice cuts, just sawing to a line, straight and angled, trying different approaches to cutting. Some work less well than others, but nothing consistently good yet. I have also been making a few single tail practice joints.

I like the feel of cutting on the pull stroke, but wonder if I would be better off with the stiffer LN saw. Is the Western-Eastern thing just a matter of pull vs push, or is there some advantage in the stiffer, more aggressive cutting blade? I'm sure that my saw, in the hands of someone more experienced, would make an acceptable cut. Any thoughts you might have on the subject will be greatly appreciated.

Dan

[Brad Olson]

If the saw is wandering then lightly stone the side of the saw it is drifting toward (on something like a 4000 or 8000 grit waterstone or equivalent).

Handcut dovetails are one of the few woodworking operations that are *almost* completely independant of tool quality and almost entirely dependant on the skill of the craftsman.

I've cut DT's with cheap saw and expensive saws and the result is always the same, so before you go on and buy tools needlessly, try stoning the saw. If it still wanders then you either have a bad saw or something in your sawing technique isn't right.

[Michael Perata]

Dan

The best saw I have found for cutting dovetails is the Zona Razor Saw with 32 TPI.

Of course you need to be willing to spend <$10.00 to get one. :cool:
http://www.jacquescoulombe.com/zona05.htm

[Dan Forman]

Mark---I made my own handle from your thread on the topic some time back, and it does have the queen back for the blade. I am using poplar to practice with. I'm sure my problem has to do with grip and arm motion, and lack of practice. I guess what I really wonder is, is there more room for the saw to wander in the kerf with the Tashiro than with the LN? Cosman makes it sound like the set is so minimal in the LN that it practically guides itself in the kerf, once established. Of course I realize that the video is distributed by LN, so there is likely some bias there.

Do you find the LN to be significantly faster? The reason for asking is that it seems that the fewer strokes required, the fewer chances for error to be induced. The flip side of that I suppose, is that the error in any one stroke with the LN would be greater by virtue of it digging farther into the wood than with the Tashiro. I think I'm, thinking too hard. :eek:

Dan

[Dan Forman]

Brad---The cut wanders back and forth, doesn't pull in direction, probably my fault, not the saw's.

Michael---I saw some Zona products in a hobby shop not long ago, will see if they have that saw. I think I can manage the price. :D

Dan

[Mike Wenzloff]

Hi Dan, I also own a variety of saws, both new and old, western and eastern.

I find that pull saws/straight-handled saws are simply difficult for me to cut dovetails regardless of the quality or geographical origin.

I tend to twist my hand on straight-handled saws. If you have access to a reasonable back saw and have not tried to use it for dovetails, give it a try.

And for what it's worth, I have a century old Disston that once I took some of the set out, jointed it, reset it and filed it (all of 45 minutes, an hour with a light cleaning) it cuts every bit as good as the LN saws I have. It cost less than $5 at a garage sale. Though I already had my saw sets, files etc.

Mike

[Alan Turner]

Dan,
If you choose to hone one side of the blade as Brad suggests, be careful; it does not take much. Charlesworth has an article on this technique.

My recommendation would be to take some end grain wood, and put it in a vise. Mark a series of vertical lines about 1/16" apart, and cut and cut till you get the arm motion right. Cut about 50 or 100 a night for a couple of nights, and you will get the hang of it without the pressure of trying to cut to the DT line. It is just a learned body motion. And, as you say, light grip pressure is critical.

If you are cutting the tails first, then you might want to orient your board so the cut is true vertical. I still do that, I have a cut more than a few DT's.

Good luck, and keep at it! Your first clean and tidy DT is a rewarding feeling.

[Mark Singer]

I would not stone the sides of the Tashiro blade! That works well for western saws that are over set....The Japanese saws are very consistent. Just practice as Alan suggested. The traditional grip is 2 handed ...you might see if that helps. For your pracrice cuts mark the edge and the face...both need to stay square and cut to one side of the line.

[Keith Christopher]

I spent alot of time practicing cutting straight lines until I got the motion in line. I usually sight down the blade and then move my arm from the shoulder keeping my elbow locked as much as possible. I know this is just my way but if I don't it wanders.

[Dan Forman]

Thanks for your responses. I went down and did another practice set, focusing on keeping my grip relaxed and arm travel. Here are the results, which are a little better overall than previous. I also resawed my practice board in half, don't know if that affected things, but I figured if I was going to be doing a bunch of these, I may as well make it a little faster, and by resawing the board, I have twice as much to practice on. Since I don't have anything to compare these with, I really don't know how well I'm doing. The cuts on the left were harder to see, the lines falling on the wrong side of the saw (cutting to the waste side of the line). Some of these came out pretty good, others, well...

I have tried a two handed grip, it feels good, but causes the most wavering of the kerf. Maybe there is still hope though if I can figure out where its going wrong.

Holding the saw at the far end of the handle seemed to help smooth things out some, did that on the last three cuts (far left). I also used the thumb and forefinger widely spread apart as a guide for starting the cut, and payed more attention to getting started at the proper angles.

I wonder about the western style grip, might try making one to use with a Japanese blade holder and blade. Anyone ever try that?

When I shot the new cuts, I also shot my single tail practice joints, so I might as well toss that pic in as well. As you can see, they are pretty "gappy".

Here is another question. If you pare to the line with a chisel to clean up a rough cut, do you come in from the edge with the grain (same direction as the saw), or down from above if the board is lying flat on it's side?

Well, its back to the shop now, got over 900 more cuts to make before I qualify to cut an actual joint. :D

Dan

[Mark Singer]

Dan,

Paring with a chisel is only used fine tune the cut once both tail and pin boards are cut and fitted....the shinny spots are pared. Your sawing is the key to good dovetails. If you try paring the cut it will not stay 90 degrees to the face and may start to round in one plane or the other..
A relaxed grip...setting the saw and making the first couple of strokes carefully sets up the whole cut. If you get a good first couple of strokes...the entire cut will be good...if you run off...its just off! Now try with the teeth closest to the handle and angle the blade down...you are just cutting the corner of the edge to the face and closest to you. This start will allow you to still direct the blade after a stroke or two. If you cut flush withe the face ....your done! No adjustment is possible.
A western handle belongs on a western saw and is designed for pushing...not pulling. The long handle on a Japanese saw is the vector of force in line with the cut...a tension member..Like when you play pool think about the line through the blade and the handle as one linear line...

[Mark Singer]

I just saw your photos and your doing good! You need to set the marking gague for 1/32 or 1/16 wider than the board thickness so the tails and pins are proud...That way you can plain or sand them flush... From here its just practice...your on the right track!

[Keith Christopher]

Dan,


Those are some good lookin cuts ! I will post a pic of my early dovetails tomorrow sometimes, but here is a set I'm kinda proud of. I was making some shaker candle boxes and was hand toolin everything. This was a test piece and well, I am glad I did, because I forgot to leave enough to have mitre'd dovetails! But with a little paring they fit quite nicely. I hadn't scraped thes flush so they're a little proud, but all the seams were tight. Only because I did what you're doing, practiced alot. Are you cutting the pins or tails first ?

http://photos17.flickr.com/19826904_0166496aa8_m.jpg


Oh almost forgot. I use the widest chisel possible when paring, that made a huge diff for me. I have an 1.5" LV for this.

[Brad Olson]

Your cuts are not wandering at all, that is just tear out from the saw and will go away when you assemble the DT's. Note that for a japanese saw the tear out faces you vs. a western saw where the tearout is on the back. Thus the tearout from a western saw is less aparent to the sawyer

As to the LN saw, you will have to learn to sharpen a western saw no matter what, so it really doesn't matter what saw you buy, just that after sharpening you do not set the teeth like you would for a larger saw. I've actaully found that the saw doesn't matter it is the sharpneing and LN only bennefits from having a good sharpener on hand. You could just as easily buy a $20 pax saw and have it sharpened by Cooke's sharpening service and have a saw that cuts just as good (if not better since Cooke's sharpening is probalby the best place to get a saw sharpened)

If your western saw comes with too much set, just place it between two pieces of hard wood such as maple and tap on it with a hammer until the set is gone, stone away and drift and your new saw will cut like a champ, even better if you know how to properly file it.

[Brad Olson]

I just saw your photos and your doing good! You need to set the marking gague for 1/32 or 1/16 wider than the board thickness so the tails and pins are proud...That way you can plain or sand them flush... From here its just practice...your on the right track!

I disagree with you on this point, if you have ever cuts dovetails in a drawer you would know why.

it is easier to cross-cut your front board to proper length than it is to maintain that width after dovetailing your drawer together. it is also MUCH easier to plane long grain down to the end grain than to plane the end grain down to the long grain. In this process you also plane away any knife marks that were added during the layout process and most importantly it is MUCH easier to clamp a drawer or box without protruding tails and pins.

These points are made much more eloquently than this by Ian Kirby in his book "The Complete Dovetail" and I agree with them after trying both pins/tails proud and long grain proud methods.

[Alan Turner]

[QUOTE=Dan Forman]
Here is another question. If you pare to the line with a chisel to clean up a rough cut, do you come in from the edge with the grain (same direction as the saw), or down from above if the board is lying flat on it's side?

Dan,

I am basically negative on paring to fit, from my own experience. I have tried it many times with only occassional success, after much time spent on this process. A chisel wants to follow the grain, making the process less than ideal.

Instead, I file the sockets to fit the pins. I use a 14 grain, 8" Modelmaker's rasp from Auriou (Joel in NY has them). Hold it in both hands, and err if at all by taking a drop more at the back of the socket than the fornt so that if there is a gap, it is not visible. It is quick and accurate. I have split a number of boards with DT's too tight. I don't intentionally miss a line, but I think I do err on side of too tight rather than too loose. Give it a try. You don't really need the high priced rasp, as any small file will do. You are filing cross grain, so that the cut of the file is pretty quick. Go slow, and take very deliberate strokes. One or two of three strokes is usually sufficient, going after only the shiny spots. Give it a try and see how it works.

BTW, most of those sawn lines look plenty straight to me. Keep at it as it is worthwhile.

[Dan Forman]

Well, I just lost my post while going back to check an earlier comment. :(

Thanks for all of the help and encouragement. A third set of practice cuts showed still more improvement, so perhaps there is hope after all! I should be able to start on my workbench drawers soon. There will be three of them, should be excellent practice, as I won't mind a few imperfections as long as they don't fall apart.

It seems there is a second dovetail controversy, that of cutting the pins and tails proud, flush, or a tad short. I was wondering about that last night, after seeing all three ways suggested by different authors. Maybe that would make a good poll question.

Gary Rogowski suggests making one of those little one tail joints as a warmup exercise every time you are going to cut some dovetails. Kind of like doing some scales before playing an instrument. Makes sense to me. I'll have some more scraps when I cut my drawer pieces to length. That will give me more material for the 50 cuts/day program, as well as a few more one tailers. I'll keep you posted on my progress. I'm sure there others going through the same thing.

Keith---your set look good, hope mine turn out as well.

Alan---I like the idea of using a file to pare to fit, sounds much less risky than a chisel, at least in my inexperienced hands. If I lived near you I would be wanting to get into your school. Nothing like that available here.

Dan

[Alan Turner]

Dan,

As to the pins short or long controversy, I have come to believe that on 1/2 lap DTs for drawers, you want to cut them right on. Recall that for a drawer, you will be fitting the front, side to side, before you layout the DT's. (The top and bottom are fit tight, and relieved later. The side to side needs to be right for the carcase opening, even if the carcase is not square, and none are perfect, at least in my shop. They are marked form the opening. So, making the DT's right on is the way to go for me. It will still require a final planing to fit the drawers, but this is not easy planing, so not too much is better than a ton. IMHO. Cutting the end of a drawer front down a drop with a LA block plane is not difficult. Take a side slipping slicing cut, very controlled, and be sure your iron is quite sharp.

As to through DT's, and I don't know which you are planing for the shop, I still do them right on if I can, but trimming the end grain is not difficult. As to the lines from marking the base line of the DT's, on the drawer sides I don't mind them, even though I know that I am disagreeing with Ian Kirby on this point. I met him in 1980 or so, and he is a real gentleman, but as to his methods, I am often in the "other" camp. Each to his own. On exposed through DT's, where the line would matter (I don't often do these) I would think I would opt for the Kirby method, but only by a skinch.

BTW, Philadelphia is a wonderful destination city, with good food, and much history. Nice collection of 18th Cen. furniture at the Phila. Art Museum, and only 1/2 hr. or so from Winterthur. A NYC day trip (90 mi, 1.5 hrs by train) for the bride will keep her happy, as long as she avoids Tiffany's, etc.

2d BTW, you are either an early bird, or a night owl. I am the former. Well, off to the day job, to pay for my second job.

[Ed Hardin]

Many a wood worker has taken a look and made pictures even of furniture made in the 19th centry or earlier. The dove tail work was atrocious. Yours are master craftsman by those standards.

[Mark Singer]

There is nothing wrong with making them to the exact measurement and planning to fit. I overscribe 1/32 and plane the pins and tails flush...that gives 1/16" play for movement of the drawer.. For just practicing dovetails I would overscribe so you don't have to plane or sand the entire surface. There are some very good points brought here by Brad and Alan and tey make sence. Fitting drawers is almost an entirely seperate subject and it may be better to just focus on the dovetails...which I think you are doing very well at...it is not the saw..just practice. If you have a chance to use a nice western saw , try it you may perfer it...I switch back and forth between the two types of saws..

[Tim Sproul]

-insert picture of ragged saw kerfs -


Hmmm...I use Japanese saws and those kerfs look like the remains of a 3 tpi Western saw :eek:.

I would hazard you are rolling your hand while sawing. Hold the saw lightly and either your pointer finger or your thumb should rest on the very top of the handle. Doing this gives you a natural reference and immediate and very fine feedback if you are rolling/rotating your hand during the saw stroke. The ragged kerf is also generally a sign of a lot of offset. Saw blades with little offset cannot rotate once the kerf is established. Too little offset can lead to problems too.

I have not used Tashiro saws...is this a crosscut or a rip? I've seen very few manufactured rip filed dozuki.

Crosscut saws will pretty much always cut slower than rip. Comparing the speed of a manufactured crosscut saw to an Independence isn't a fair comparison. I think most folks would put the Independence up towards the top of the heap of Western dovetail saws. You're better off making comparisons to comparable Japanese dovetail saws..... :rolleyes:. Or at least go get a manufactured gents saw with punched teeth to compare to the Tashiro :p. If you want a decent Japanese rip filed dozuki, look at Hida and the manufactured Mitsukawa saws. I have the rip and crosscut dozukis and find they are excellent.

[Dan Forman]

Still more food for thought. Thanks for the additional info on fitting drawers. That will be another adventure I'm sure.

Tim---I'm not really sure whether the Tashiro is rip or crosscut, probably the latter as it certainly takes me a while to get through the cut. Mark may know the answer to that one. Tashiro comes highly recommended by him and others here, but I have nothing to compare it to.

I'm pretty sure I am getting some rolling going on, trying to work on that.

Toshio Odate has designed a rip cut dovetail saw that is reasonably priced and available from Joel at TFWW. I will also look at the models you suggested. If the Tashiro is in fact a crosscut, I may go ahead and get a rip cut saw to try. Everything I have read says they work better for dovetails. In the meantime, I'll continue to work on improving technique.

Sure would be nice to live near a Woodcraft or Highland Hardware, where one could actually compare tools before shelling out the bucks. Dispite living in a fair sized town, I have to order most quality hand tools and other esoteric supplies (latest example is wood dyes) over the internet.

Dan

[Mark Singer]

Dan,

The Queen dovetail blade is a rip blade designed for dovetails with a minium set. The test board should be 1/2" thick. I would not use poplar ....try a pice of maple or walnut and the blade should have less friction...poplar can be a little gummy and not my favorite wood for dovetails. The blade cuts very fast and for dovetails you will want to slow down and watch the line..

[Charles Stanford]

Those test cuts look a little tatty. I'd try the Zona saw as somebody else suggested. I like the part of that gentleman's post where he said you "have to be willing to spend less than $10." Oh, so true.

I had the L-N saw and didn't particularly care for it. It's a bit finicky to start - you really need a light touch and I don't like that. Mind you, I'd been cutting dovetails for decades with a very pedestrian saw and maybe I was used to something slightly less than a supposed thoroughbred. I'm not an L-N basher for the record - I have several of their planes.

I currently use a Pax gent's saw, filed crosscut, and it does fine.

[Mark Bergman]

Dan -

I have both the Tashiro Queen dovetail and the Odate dovetail saw from Joel. The teeth on the tashiro look an awful lot like the teeth on their crosscut saws and I find that although I don't much like it for cutting dovetails, it works very well as a crosscut dozuki.

I very much like the Odate dovetail saw - inexpensive and tracks a line very nicely. It also has an almost negligible kerf, which to me means that this is the first saw I've used to cut dovetails with which I can split the line and the pins (which I mark from the tails) don't come out too small.

BTW, I use a one hand grip on all my Japanese saws except for one antique rip saw almost three feet long.

[Roy Wall]

Dan,

Like others have said --Keep at it!! You are doing well.....

A few of thoughts:

The poplar is so soft it will be ragged looking.

I have the LN DT saw and it cuts very straight, it does not "ridge" like the Tashiro Pull saw is doing to you......

I also have an Old "clark & sons" DT saw circa 1910 or so....it will cut a very straight line also - this one was my father in laws ......so no $$$$.

I have used an Adria DT saw ($115 comparable to LN) - and it cuts beautifully too. I believe Adria will refund your money if you don't like the saw; and give you up to a YEAR to test it out......so check this out---somebody does make a saw with this guarantee!

I am trying to learn the Rob Cosman way...cut to the line, chop out waste, and glue up - no paring. My joints are usually too tight--but I"m working on them.

You will be surprised how much better they look after glueup and a little planing..........it certainly helps:)

[Tim Sproul]

The poplar is so soft it will be ragged looking.


I disagree. I use poplar a bit for drawer sides. I have not had issues with ragged kerfs. If I use a saw that has more than a hint of offset, I get ragged kerfs because I'm not that good of a sawyer. With my dovetail saw, I get a very smooth kerf in poplar, alder, hard maple, madrone, walnut, jatoba, cherry, oaks, black acacia and other woods.

I would point to the combination of technique (or lack thereof) and offset leading to ragged kerf. If the saw teeth are sharp enough to saw the wood being sawn, they will leave a ragged kerf if the saw is employed in such a fashion.

[Charles Stanford]

Poplar is not responsible for the ragged cut. It's either the saw, the technique, or a little of both.

You also don't need a fleet of dovetail saws in your shop unless you enjoy spending money needlessly.

[Steve Wargo]

O.K. I'll weigh in with my thoughts. The ragged cut your getting could be from putting downward pressure on the blade. When cutting with a hand saw (that is sharp) there is no need to apply downward pressure. Let the saw do all the work. Poplar is really not a good choice to practice DT's with because it compresses so much that it makes it easy to cheat and get respectable looking results. Maple works good and keeps you honest. As others have said, practice, practice, practice. That is the only way to get good. Some people grasp it quickly, others take time. I've known people who make their first ones look good, and others look bad after 10 tries. Good luck and keep with it.

[Charles Stanford]

Poplar isn't a good wood to practice with?

Wow, I build all my drawer sides, backs, and bottoms with Poplar except for the occassional quartersawn species for special applications.

Taking the average drawer build as an example - 1/2" Poplar side dovetailed to a 7/8" (+) Maple, Mahogany, or Cherry drawer front - I agree that the Poplar will compress to fit but that's one reason it's great. You can cut it just slightly fat to assure a nice, tight joint. Ditto White Pine, the quintessential secondary wood for drawer making.

Carcase dovetailing will obviously require a bit more precision since a harder species (usually) is being dovetailed to itself. But a guy just starting out does not need to be sweating cutting a carcase joint just yet.

[Mike Wenzloff]

Hi Charles,

I think the point is for one learning to cut the dovetails, it would be better to use a wood that doesn't compress. I agree with that.

Once you can cut them decent in harder woods, you can learn how to adjust in other woods.

I too use a lot of Poplar and some Pine for drawers. They are very forgiving woods. But I pay more attention when using Maple, Sycamore etc.

Mike

[Roy Wall]

About the POPLAR...................

I agree it cuts clean.........but, for me, it is not as clean on the inside edge. I suppose this is what I meant - Sorry. I am very much a beginner on the DT's....and I practice a lot on Poplar --- just not very good yet:(

I get cleaner cuts inside & out with harder woods ....................

And yes, I do like the fact that poplar will compress - it hides a lot of error!

[Leif Hanson]

Wow, lots of good responses here - a very interesting thread. Here's a couple of my thoughts... :rolleyes:

EDIT - this all applies to western saws - not japanese.

A rough cut from a saw can be caused by having the teeth set unevenly in the saw. There are a couple ways to fix this, the best being a combination of two - re-set the teeth with a reliable saw set, then stone each the side of the teeth lightly with a medium India stone or something similar. This should help to bring all of the teeth in-line with each other, leaving a smoother cut. Don't remove too much set like this, as it can lead to the saw binding. Lightly stone them, and test frequently until it's just right.

Wandering says to me the saw has too much set.... Binding says not enough. If the saw is constantly wandering to one side - then there's too much set on the one side. To cure that - lightly stone just the side the saw is wandering to and test - then repeat as necessary (it really should only take one or two swipes - too much, and the saw will bind, so go slowly!)

Hard starting - it's not a crime to pull a saw to get it started (it helps to reduce tearout if you've scored the cut first!). But also, try lifting about half of the weight of the saw when starting the push...

See this page (http://www.norsewoodsmith.com/ww/sawbasics/tuningsaws1.htm) among the others there for a few more tips on troubleshooting saws...

A few thoughts on getting a smoother cut...

First, use as fine of a saw as is feasible - but not too fine. A Zona saw was mentioned - this can be a good solution for thin woods, but can be quite slow and wandering because it can be too fine for thicker woods, like 1/2" and up. Too many teeth clog up with saw dust and can make the cut hard to control. The opposite is true for too coarse of a saw - they can leave an unnecessarily rough cut when used for finer tasks such as dovetails. For 1/2" wood, something around 15 - 17 PPI is optimum, IMO - though it can still be done with saws that are finer or coarser, that's just what I consider best.

Use a sharp saw. If it isn't sharp, sharpen it!

Score the cuts with a marking knife. Cutting the fibers on the surface can leave less tear out. If scoring isn't your thing, another option is to use a good masking tape on the backside of your cut, and mark out right on top of it. Or clamp a thin backing board while making the cut (this makes it hard to see the marks, of course - but if you use a quick clamp, or just hold it with your hand as you go, it can be done). Each of these can be utilize separately or together, but you need to find the method that fits you personally.

Files - as mentioned above - are a great idea, too. I honestly don't understand why they aren't used more often.

Finally - for cleaning up the bottom of the cut, use a *sharp*, looonnng paring chisel. It doesn't hurt to undercut the hidden parts just a hair, especially at the base of the shoulder. Start by paring a pyramid shape into the end grain, using the scribed line to start the chisel - then slowly work the pyramid down from the top down. This is where the longer paring chisel really shines - it allows you to make *very* minute changes of attack to pare off the tiniest sliver of wood.

HTH
Leif

[Charles Stanford]

I guess the point that I was trying to make was that a softer, compressive wood is not necessarily a crutch since it's common practice to dovetail drawers with softer species.

For many, dovetailing two hard species will only exist in theory as they are learning to dovetail mainly for the purpose of building drawers.

[James Mittlefehldt]

FWIW

I started using a Japanese dovetail saw, ie the one that Lee VAlley sells, and I cut my first decent dovetails using that saw. Problem was the teeth kept breaking off, and after I went through my third blade in a year I decided to ante up and buy a Pax dovetail saw with a rip cut.

I was very happy with the Japanese saw, but I was overjoyed with the Pax, it seemed to give me a much greater control, I guess because of the stiff back on it. I would reccomend trying an English back saw or the Lie-Nielson which I have tried a few times at woodworking shows under the expert tutelage of Rob Cosmon, though I don't think the extra cost of that saw is justified having tried both.

It's nice being within a twenty minute drive of a Lee Valley store.

[Tim Sproul]

I guess the point that I was trying to make was that a softer, compressive wood is not necessarily a crutch since it's common practice to dovetail drawers with softer species.

I'd agree and go further. If you employ traditional building techniques like slide-less drawer boxes...you want the drawer sides to be made of a relatively soft wood. Drawers are easier to repair/replace when the sides where out than to replace the runners the drawer sides were sliding on.

[Dan Forman]

Let me take a moment to thank everyone who has contributed thus far, it has yielded far more information than I anticipated.

Last night I located a scrap of maple to try, and here's what I found:

This was late at night, and when I first put the odly shaped piece in my pseudo vise, I mistakenly oriented to a crosscut. I was initially nearly ecstatic, as the saw cut through it with nowhere near the resistance I had been experiencing and was taking a 3/4 inch cut in about 20 seconds. I thought "so this is what it's supposed to be like" But then I realized that these were crosscuts, and reoriented the board for a rip. I was soon to fall back to earth.

While the cuts had noticably cleaner edges, and looked good from the front (disguised in part by the remains of the pencil line) , from behind they still had the same amount of what Roy called "ridging" as the poplar had. There was no noticeable difference in the feel of the cut (between edge grain maple and poplar), and the time factor went from 20 seconds to about 3 minutes for a 3/4 inch cut down a 3/4 inch thick board. Furthermore, the kerf in the edge grain was at least twice the width of those done across the grain.

So, I am left wondering, with all due respect to Mark, if this indeed is a crosscut pattern, rather than a rip. It certainly behaves much better in a crosscut. Nowhere in the literature that came with the blade is the claim that it is a rip blade.

I grant that in all likelihood my technique or lack thereof is contributing to my dissatisfaction, as is the belief that I made the handle too slim for comfortable use. It is about 1 1/4 inches deep by 7/8 inches wide. After a three minute cut, I am getting cramps in my hand, though not gripping the handle with much force. This would seem to make it more difficult to keep it oriented properly for a fine cut. I would be much obliged if someone could tell me the dimensions of a typical Japanese pull saw handle, so that I would have something to compare it to. The second handle, which I made for a Tashiro "joint blade" is larger and feels more comfortable for extended use. It is 1 1/2" by 1 1/8", with a 3/8" flat strip top and bottom to give a better feel for blade angle. The only problem is the joint blade is thicker and takes a different blade holder (no back), so the handles are not interchangeable. The joint blade I'm sure is a crosscut, and doesn't do well for me in edge grain either.

I think a good part of the problem is that for me, the saw cuts so slowly that it just bounces around in the kerf for too long, creating those unsightly ridges.

Mark---This is where I wonder if we are talking about the same blade. For you it cuts very fast, but for me it is painfully slow in edge grain, though much better across grain. The package was labeled Queen Dovetail Blade however. It saw it's first use less than a week ago, so I don't see how it could be dull.

Here are a few more questions I have for those of you who have not yet run out of patience.

How long does it take you to rip a 3/4" board to a depth of 3/4", in either poplar or maple, and with what kind of saw? This would give me something to compare my own experience to. I realize this is not a "speed contest", but the info would be helpful.

In my frustration over this, I took Roy's comment to heart, and ordered an Adria dovetail saw, with the one year trial period. At least it will give me something to compare with the Japanese saws, and if I don't care for it, or it is not significantly better than what I already have or come up with, I won't be out anything. At any rate, it certainly is pleasing to look at. I would also like to try one of the other recommended Japanese saws, but will wait until the Adria arrives, as it is not my intention to start a collection of these things.

As to wood species, my immediate project (workbench drawers), will be poplar, as the wood has already been bought, sut to rough size and milled to thickness at 3/4 inches per the Woodsmith plan. Many of you have suggested 1/2" boards for practice. Is that a more typical thickness to work with for drawers? These will be about 13 x 20", 4 3/8" high. They will be equipped with maple runners to slide in maple grooves.

I understand the suggestion to practice on harder wood is to sort of highlight any problems with technique so that poor habits do not become ingrained. It is the "warriors" approach, and makes sense to me.

In the meantime, I'll continue to work with my saw to improve the cuts as I wait for the Adria.

Allen---That would be late to bed for me to your early to rise. Goodnight...er...morning to you.

Dan

[Mark Bergman]

Dan -

When I read your last post, I thought that you had misunderstood my previous post, but then realized that another Mark had responded as well.

In any event, I am sure that the Tashiro dovetail blade is a crosscut blade, not rip, and there are many other saws and blades that work much better cutting dovetails.

The other Mark

[Mark Singer]

Dan,

You can email or call Frank tashiro and ask him about the plade. Normally a dovetail blade is filed "rip" ....I have this same blade and will try it and let you know... I have many of his blades for years and maybe the one I pick up and use is another blade since the packages are all open ...and things move around.
This was taken from Tasiro's website. If it is designed for dado cuts it should be a rip...but ask him..I will go in the shop and try a practice board and maybe compare saws..which might help

Dan I always make my handles beefy and that is why are perfer making my own....that is probably causing your cramping...also relax your hand if possible.

The Adria saw shold be very good and it will give you a chance to try a western saw

The other, other Mark:rolleyes:

http://www.tashirohardware.com/b7.jpg

Queen Dovetail Blade: Tipped with a plunge cutter. Plunge to fixed depth for dado cuts. Make start cuts for other blades. Flex nose section like a spatula for flush cuts. Flex sideways like a fish tail for curved cuts. Kerf = 0.02 ｱ0.001". Depth of cut = 1.5". Depth at 45ｰ = 2.25". Teeth per inch = 18. Edge* = 8.75". Length* = 10.75". $15.45

[Pam Niedermayer]

In my experience few saws labelled as dovetail/dozuki are rip saws. For example, the LV Professional Dozuki is not rip whereas the LV Japanese Rip Dozuki is. However, I contend that it doesn't much matter for cutting dovetails, the cuts are so insignificant/short, not like you're ripping a 6' board. In a class I took, the instructor had a new LN straight handled dovetail saw, I had the LV Pro Dozuki, cutting with either went zip-zip, finished almost before I started.

Currently I use a Kaneharu rip dozuki from Hiraide, which is a great saw. I honestly don't know why I bought this, except Chris Schwarz/Pop Woodworking said it was a great saw for dovetails. It is very good and a hand made saw, but the LV Pro Dozuki did the job (no teeth broken).

Twenty some years ago I used a Tyzack back saw, which also worked great. I think the important things are stiffness and sharpness, you need both.

Pam

[Rob Russell]

I'd agree and go further. If you employ traditional building techniques like slide-less drawer boxes...you want the drawer sides to be made of a relatively soft wood. Drawers are easier to repair/replace when the sides where out than to replace the runners the drawer sides were sliding on.



I'm still practicing dovetails for a pair of cherry tables I'll be making soon. The tables have a single drawer. I'd planned on cherry for all parts except for the drawer sides which would be maple. Would I be better off using maple for the slides the drawers run on than the cherry I'm currently planning on?



Rob

[Tim Sproul]

Rob,

I sent a PM to take this offline. SMC seems a bit more 'picky' about hijacking of threads.

[Mark Singer]

Dan,

I tried the Tashiro Queen dovetail and many other saws. The Tashiro rips at a slower speed which I think gives you more control, I think it is a rip saw...you need to look at the opposite side of the teeth since it cuts on the pull. The teeth are 90 degrees to the blade which is a rip .... All the saws seem to cut straight if you start straight. I tried the LN, some great old ones , a Saphir...all different but ...straight.

I think Pam is correct for dovetails it desn't matter all that much...I grabed a diston crosscut and made a nice cut with it and as fast!

[Brad Olson]

L

How long does it take you to rip a 3/4" board to a depth of 3/4", in either poplar or maple, and with what kind of saw? This would give me something to compare my own experience to. I realize this is not a "speed contest", but the info would be helpful.



I have a western saw with about 20 ppi, filed by myself.

Depending on the wood, the bulk cut takes 2-5 strokes, and then 1-2 gentle strokes to carefully bring it to the line.

[Mark Singer]

I asked Frank Tashiro the question and....

Dear Mr. Singer:

The Queen dovetail blades are crosscuts.

Dovetail sawing is with the wood grain and rip teeth are more
efficient. Dovetail saws with rip teeth are available at a price.
However, rip teeth do not have spur cutters and tend to follow the
grain of the wood.

Crosscut teeth cut their own path and are not influenced as much by the
grain of the wood as the rip blades. This is the reason our Queen
dovetail saw blades are crosscuts.

Sincerely,
Tashrio `hardwae L.L.C.

[Dan Forman]

Mark S (Will the real "Other Mark" please stand up?")---

Thanks for doing the detective work. Should have the new saw by midweek, will update then.

Thanks to those who have reported their data on speed of cut.

Dan

[Charles Stanford]

"However, rip teeth do not have spur cutters and tend to follow the
grain of the wood.

Crosscut teeth cut their own path and are not influenced as much by the
grain of the wood as the rip blades."

How true.

[Dan Forman]

Well, the woman in brown brought my new saw today, and it's a keeper!

It cuts much faster and more importantly cleaner than the Tashiro. Though the kerf is nearly the same, the Adria has less set than the other saw, so it doesn't wander back and forth so much. Due to the rather substantial brass back supporting the blade, it's a little more of a challenge to see where the saw is headed at the beginning of a cut, and there is no correcting once the cut is started. You can see below that there were a few that got away from me, but overall they are much straighter than previous efforts. The pic is from the far side, where they were the most ragged before. I guess I wasn't being very picky about the depth in back. :eek:

Time for a 3/4" cut is down to about 25 seconds compared to close to 3 minutes with the Tashiro. I think after a few more practice sessions I will be ready to start on my drawers.

With the new vise, I will now have to adjust to working at a lower level, maybe that will help some too. These were cut with the old clamps and 2x4's depicted in a previous thread.

I would still like to try out a top notch pull saw for comparison, but for now I'm quite happy.

Dan

[Alan Turner]

Most of those cuts are quite good. You should have no trouble with your DT's now.

[Mark Singer]

Dan,

Those cuts look very good! Nice looking saw too.

[Jim Becker]

Ok...very nice saw. Make? Looks familiar...

Nice cuts, too. 'Wish I could do so well!

[Joe Blankshain]

Is that an LN saw? The cuts look very crisp and clean.

[Alan Turner]

Dan,
Nice new vise. You might find a cheap vise accessory handy. Based on a tip in FWW, or somewhere, I made a set of drop in blocks to take up the slack on the side of the jaw that is not in use. It is a stack of 2" by 4" shims, 1/4" and 1/8" thick, which are bolted together with two nuts locked against each other so they are loose and can flop. Run your vise up to the stock you want to hold, and then put the stack on the top of the other side of the vise, and the right number of shims will drop down into the opening, then fully tighten the vise, and you will not have any racking. Mine lives in my tool tray.
Just a thought.

[Mike Weaver]

Ok...very nice saw. Make? Looks familiar...

Nice cuts, too. 'Wish I could do so well!

Jim,
I believe in an earlier post, he metioned it was an Adria.
http://www.adriatools.com/handsaw/dovetail_saw.html

Cheers,
-Mike

PS Dan - Nice saw & cuts!

[Roy Wall]

Is that an LN saw? The cuts look very crisp and clean.

No, that is the Adria. I suggested it because they have a one year "satisfaction" guarantee at no risk. However, it is a good as purchased now..:cool:

[Dan Forman]

Thanks again for the kind comments.

The saw is an Adria, which as Roy thankfully pointed out earlier in this thread has the 1 year satisfaction guarantee.

Alan---I like the idea for the vise assistant, will try that. How thick did you make your stack?

Dan

[Jim Becker]

That 'splains why it looked familiar, albeit it's cleaner than mine... hee hee

[Tony Zaffuto]

Don't want to "hijack" the thread, but Jim Becker, are you the Jim Becker that had a picture of a (if I remember correctly) coofee table in the issue of "Woodworking" that I picked up at Barnes & Noble this past weekend?

If you are, kudos for the accomplishment!

[Jim Becker]

Nope. Not me.

[Alan Turner]

I'll bet it is this fellow. From Dave Anderson country, I believe.

http://www.jasbecker.com/