Another dual voltage motor question

[James Baker SD]

Similar to recent threads but different enough I think to ask. Sorry for the long intro. Skip down to REAL QUESTION HERE if you get bored, but it is kind of a funny story.

I have an old residential elevator installed in the 80's by previous, previous owner. Elevator died last summer. Called around to about a dozen elevator companies and only one would even come out and look at it (others only did commercial, only worked on units they installed, would not work on something this old). Tech comes out and decides motor is bad but wants to talk to boss about what to do. No word for ages, I phone, they delay, I phone they delay etc. Finally call around again, still no other takers willing to look at it. So call the one company again and pretend to be a new call. Same tech comes out, surprised that elevator is broken again already (he remembered the house), very surprised when I tell them they never came back to fix it.

So now he starts again. Decides brake is not releasing and caused motor to burn out. Removes motor (240V reversible 1.5 HP Baldor--don't know if it was dual voltage) and says they will have it repaired. Last I ever see of Baldor. When, after numerous more phone calls, they finally come out again, they bring a new Dayton dual voltage, reversible 1.5 HP motor with same mount as Baldor had. (They dumped the Baldor despite my request to have it back if not fixable.)

Tech wires in new motor, it just buzzes. We argue over how it should be wired as same controller relays release brake with 120V coil. He is afraid of frying the coil with 240V and wants to leave some of the motor wires unconnected to anything, not even each other. Eventually we compromise a bit and he continues. Bottom line is he can wire it to run up (regardless of which call button is pushed) or he can wire it to run down (regardless of which call button is pushed) but he cannot wire it to reverse. Calls the boss and they decide they need a different new motor. Comes back a week later with a nearly identical Dayton dual voltage, reversible 1.5 HP motor, but with different color wires sticking out of it (same total number of wires though). Does same thing as the first motor. Call boss again and they talk.

Conclusion is that the original Baldor was a totally custom designed motor just for my model elevator. No other 240V motor in the world will ever work. However, if they just wire the Dayton to run at 120V everything will be fine. All he needs to do it go up in the attic to the controller, ground one of the two hots to create a neutral, and wire this Dayton motor up as 120V reversible and I will be in business with a working elevator.

I veto this plan as the controller itself runs on 24V from a stepdown transformer off of the 240V supply. I fear the tech messing things up so badly nobody will ever be able to straighten it out. Plus I have totally lost confidence in his (and his boss') knowledge of electricity. Yes he knows tons more about elevators than I do, but I am not confident in his motor knowledge. I do not know what is wrong, but I strongly suspect there is another problem the tech is missing and its not the supply voltage to the motor.

REAL QUESTION IS HERE
So, I cannot believe that the Dayton motor which will not reverse when energized with 240V will suddenly be willing to reverse when energizes at 120V. Comments? Please do not tell me to get another elevator company, I have already tried that. Guess it is time to learn elevator repair :mad:

Thanks.

[Paul McGaha]

This is kind of unusual James. The elevator motor, controller and control and power wiring are in the domain of the elevator contractor rather than a typical electrical contractor (other than the feed from the panel to the elevator controller).

I think what you need really is a qualified, experienced, residential elevator contractor. Maybe research it more James. San Diego is a pretty big city, somebody must be doing that kind of work there.

Personally, I don't know the 1st thing about residential elevators. I wish this was more helpful.

PHM

[Jim Dwight]

I don't know the answer to the question either but I have a couple more ideas. First, you could research Baldor motors or try to see if they make any which would do what the tech says is possible. Probably a better idea is to research who makes residential elevators and see who they use as installers.

[James Baker SD]

The motor wiring diagram shows 4 configurations. CW at 230V, CCW at 230V, CW at 115V and CCW at 115V. Up in the attic, 8 contactors are opened or closed by the controller, essentially rewiring the motor on the fly for CW or CCW but always energized at 230V. New motor is Dayton 1K073BE.

My question is (which I am 90% sure of the answer, I just want the other 10% doubt removed) is if the motor direction can be switched on the fly by the controller in 115V mode, as the tech and his boss swear it can, then can it also be switched on the fly by the controller in 230V mode (which tech and boss say it cannot)? Every other component of this elevator looks off the shelf, 1980s equipment. I just cannot believe they had a custom motor designed by Baldor for a few hundred (or thousand?) elevators they probably built (as the tech and boss now say must have been the case).

The two run windings will be either series 230V or parallel 115V, it is the start winding that gets switched and it is 115V in all cases (one hot and in between the 2 run windings in 230V mode). As I tried to say above, tech hardwired direction and just let the controller energize the motor and he can make it run up or down at 230V, he just cannot get it to do both under the controller's command.

I have to think that either the contactors are bad, they are miswired or the motor is miswired. Tech won't check anything else until I let him try the 115V mode operation. So we are in a stalemate because I fear he will destroy the system, say I'm sorry, pack his bag and leave me with a permanently dead elevator. I know the ideal solution is to find another company, but I cannot afford to fly out an expert from the East Coast if that is where I find one. I've tried every company in a 120 mile radius. Learning elevator repair is looking better and better all the time. :D

[Phil Thien]

My question is (which I am 90% sure of the answer, I just want the other 10% doubt removed) is if the motor direction can be switched on the fly by the controller in 115V mode, as the tech and his boss swear it can, then can it also be switched on the fly by the controller in 230V mode (which tech and boss say it cannot)?

So, have any pics of the controller? Is the manufacturer of the controller in business? Do you have a motor part #?

You still have the latest Dayton motor, right?

Any wiring diagrams on the controller?

[John T Barker]

I have a couple of threads on this forum where I freely admit that I am dumb about motors but I did once pull my table saw motor out to be repaired and rewired it when it had been. I wired it incorrectly and (drumroll please) it ran backwards. So, if this motor could be wired to run backwards why can't any motor have a means of changing the flow so the direction of rotation changes?

We have conveyor belts at my workplace that run both ways...this shouldn't be that tough to deal with.

[James Baker SD]

So, have any pics of the controller? Is the manufacturer of the controller in business? Do you have a motor part #?

You still have the latest Dayton motor, right?

Any wiring diagrams on the controller?

Elevator manufacturer (Sedgwick) long out of business. Controller is Omron and I downloaded 90 page pdf manual on it today which I am studying. PLC and discrete TTL logic gives a flavor of its age.

Little information on original Baldor motor except that it ran on 230V and was reversible (minimum transmission in elevator to reduce RPM but reversing was done by flipping polarity of start winding connections). No manual on new Dayton motor which tech left installed, but currently unconnected to controller. Do have the 4 wiring diagrams for it.

Have a generic schematic of total controller (Omron is only the brains) but there are components in the controller cabinet (3DPDT relay, thermal overload circuit) not shown in schematic so it is not completely accurate, but gives the general overall view. Schematic indicates original motor was dual voltage wired for 230V operation, but as I said, it is not completely accurate. Motor was 1.5 HP.

Actual wiring is a disaster. All sensor (door closed, limit switches, call buttons etc) signals are bundled together in flex conduit from below and all are yellow wires with no labels on them, all internal point to point connections within the controller cabinet are done in blue with no labels, all wires from controller down to motor (via flex conduit) are done in black again with no labels. There is a list of I/O connections and controller has LED display for I/O ports so it should be possible to confirm wiring, although they could have made it easier with more colors of wire. Will probably have to ohm out the black motor wires to verify what they are (or pull some new ones in multiple colors).

I am studying all this and I am likely to have a go at it in the next few days. Just want to make sure that tech's motor story (can't reverse if energized at 230V, will reverse if energized at 115V) is bogus. The claim Baldor made custom 230V motor with the capability, but any ole 115V motor can do it. Obvious isn't it, that I do not respect the repairman's competence.

[Jerome Stanek]

I would make them replace the motor that they took. It belongs to you and they had no right to get rid of it.

[Malcolm McLeod]

I been doing Automation Engineering for 30 yrs, so the PLC and low voltage side of this is quite familiar. My panel techs (or me in a pinch) have done a lot of trouble-shooting like this over the years. However, I am not an electrician - - in my world, the motor side of this is considered 'high' voltage and handled by electricians. With that disclaimer...

Seems like the brake is not the issue as the elevator will move.

You are correct that the motor WILL run in EITHER direction using either voltage- - if wired properly. Any competent commercial electrician should be able to handle this. Especially if you can find electrical schematics.

My guess is the root cause is probably either the PLC outputs or the relays driven by PLC. From your description, sounds like the PC outputs are 24VDC driving separate relays, relays selectively switch 230VAC to the motor. Both have finite life expectancy. My first guess would be carbon build up on the relay contacts. This will drop one leg of the 230V to the motor. ...Buzzing would be what I would expect.

You can test this by removing the motor and making sure the wire leads to it are 'safe' (secured, not shorted, no little fingers nearby). Determine which PLC output is the "UP" signal and pull the wire off PLC. Jumper this wire to proper voltage (24VDC?) and verify correct relays are energized (many have LED on when coil is energized). Check for correct 230V at relay & the motor. (Schematics are huge help!) Repeat for "DOWN". If you don't get correct voltage at motor, trace wire back to relay and replace the plug-in coil/contact module (base should be fine - but look for arcing or loose connections on base).

If is the PLC, it is probably a failed output channel. This could be fixed by simply moving the wire to a spare output and editing the PLC program to match. Unfortunately, if this is 80's tech and there are no spares, it might also mean complete replacement of the PLC. At that point, I'd recommend you find a System Integrator to assist with spec and configuration of new hardware and program migration. (Not sure of you pain threshold, but this could get expensive.)

I'd be happy to help, but my plane ticket might cost about the same as the local boys.... Sorry!

[Malcolm McLeod]

Two more tidbits - -
1)There are lots of very competent commercial electricians in the workplace. They excel at what I call premise wiring: breaker panels, conduit, planning & pulling wire, lighting, receptacles, etc.. But the available pool drops quickly when you put some of these guys inside an automation control panel (or on your PLC). They'll be fine with the motor, but just don't have the experience to trouble-shoot the automation side of the systems. It sounds like your elevator tech is in this latter group.

2)If they want to run the motor at 120V (half of original design), make sure the wire will handle the double ampere draw.

A local Integrator might be able to recommend someone that fits your 'automation' electrician needs...?

[Phil Thien]

I would likely start troubleshooting by observing the contactors with the elevator: (1) Moving Up. (2) Stopped after having just moved up. (3) Moving down. (4) Having stopped after having just moved down. Obviously this would be done w/o the motor attached.

I'd make a table with those four across the top or side, and the status of each of the eight contactors across the opposite axis.

Now post your motor part # and wiring diagram.

And I'd bet you money someone here can tell you how to wire the motor. And if there is an output that isn't working properly, it should be obvious from the table, as well.

It will require some tracing of the signal if all your leads from the contactors to the motor are black. But that shouldn't be too difficult.

BTW, there is also an elevator forum. Check out www.vatortrader.com (http://www.vatortrader.com) and there is a forum for techs there.

[Malcolm McLeod]

Yes, I can be like a dog with a bone...

This is typical nameplate for Dayton:
319862

You can run either direction at 230V using as few as 3 relays (DPDT contacts) like so:
319863
If up and down are reversed, swap the #5 & #8 leads at motor junction box.
Edit - The bottom wire labeled "2B", should be "2C".
(It can be done with 2 relays, but it gets a wee bit confusing.)

[James Baker SD]

Thanks, Malcolm and Phil:

I left out information as the initial post was getting too long in background. Elevator was working a year ago, going up and down. On day it died, it started to jerk a lot, shaking pretty badly near the end of travel (it has switches that tell it when it is near the end of travel and at the absolute end of travel). Finally it just quit altogether. Tech found it had blown fuses, but replacing those just blew them again. He initially suspected the motor was dead. Six months later, when they restarted working on it, he suspected the brake coil had failed and caused the motor to burn out. Sounded reasonable given the jerking motion the day it died. Tech removed motor and left saying they would take it to a motor guy to check it out and then get it repaired or replaced. I have no proof that the original motor was dead or unrepairable, just know they bought a Dayton to replace it. (Jerome) Original Baldor is long gone thrown in the dumpster (or so they claim), exact model is unknown to me. Tech came back and replaced brake coil (115V operation) and motor with Dayton. BUZZ.

Malcom,

here are the wiring diagram from the first Dayton motor (installed mounted in elevator) and part of the schematic. Pretty close to your diagrams.

319875
319874

319876
The tech did say that the contactors were not working, his guess they had become stuck from sitting in the same position for so long. He brought them down into the house (from the very hot attic), worked on them with a pair of pliers until he said they were OK and put them back in the controller.

I now suspect (1) he either miswired the motor--we had disagreement on how to connect 115V brake coil (T3) to 230V motor (T2 & T3), he claimed motor T2 & T3 had 230V on them (since it is a 230V motor so ALL wires have 230V on them) and would fry the brake coil. I do not know what connections he actually made, and now he has unwired the motor to test the 2nd Dayton on the floor before doing the work of mounting it.
or (2) his quick repair of the contactors (Sprecher+schuh CA3-16-10) has failed, so I have ordered 4 used replacements from eBay.
or (3) in the terrirble heat up in the attic, he miswired the contactors when he put them back in.

We are stalled because he insists on trying the motor at 115V as the next step.

[Jerome Stanek]

Would that work the same as a commercial garage door opener.

[Malcolm McLeod]

Sounds like you are 90% of the way to fixing this yourself..? If tech couldn't fix this with these schematics in his hands, he is not your man. Period. (As polite as I know how to be thru gritted teeth.)

Per schematics, there is 230V between L1<->L2, and between T1<->T4 when relays are energized. All paths to T2/T3 cross a resistance, so voltage from here to either T1 OR T4 must be less. Not sure what actual voltage is from T2/T3 to GND, but in this case it doesn't matter. What matters is the voltage that the brake coil 'sees', which is T2/T3 <-> T4. And this IS NOT 230V.

T1 = Blue
T2/T3 = Orange + White
T4 = Yellow
T5 = Black
T8 = Red (swap red and black as testing dictates)

Wire it like this and release the brake (there should be a mechanical over-ride.) With motor running, use a volt meter to test between T2/T3 <-> T4. If its 115V, wire the brake in, release the over-ride and you're done. This keeps motor at 230V and brake at 115V, as originally designed.

Just in case I'm wrong, you can check the other leads at T5 & T8 (to T4). And, if nothing has close to 115V on it, run a neutral to the brake and wire the brake between T1 (switched) and the neutral. This also keeps motor at 230V and brake at 115V.

[Malcolm McLeod]

And you have to let me know how this turns out! Maybe even record the conversation with the tech....:eek:

[James Baker SD]

And you have to let me know how this turns out! Maybe even record the conversation with the tech....:eek:

Will do Malcolm, and thanks for your help.

I have spent about 10 hours with the tech, picking his brain about how elevators work in general. He has a lot of knowledge in some areas (acquired on the job I suspect rather than through formal schooling). His big problem is he does not understand American power distribution systems and the relationship between 120V circuits and 240V circuits from the same panel.

So between the knowledge gained from the tech, studying the schematics, and the spec sheets on individual components I have downloaded from the internet, I am about ready to give it a shot myself. Have to wait until the cool of the morning though as that attic gets too hot for me in the afternoon. First step will be figuring out which wire from the controller is which to the motor since they are all black.

[Phil Thien]

Where are the fuses that were blowing, and what are their values?

Malcolm, can the blowing fuses and jerky operation point to one or more bad contactors?

[James Baker SD]

Where are the fuses that were blowing, and what are their values?

Malcolm, can the blowing fuses and jerky operation point to one or more bad contactors?

Fuses are in a separate box about 2 feet from the controller box. 1 AC line goes into fuse box, 2 come out: 1 fused, 1 unfused. Both lines then go to controller. Fuses are 20A. Breakers at the panel are also 20A, but the fuses always seem to blow first and the breakers don't trip. I flip the breakers when working on the circuit as I am a coward, but otherwise they seem to stay on.

[James Baker SD]

just for the fun of it, here is a photo of the contactors. Lovely mess, isn't it? The 5 black wires labelled T1 through T8 in the lower right go down through the flex conduit. Too bad they didn't bother to label them on the other end.

319884

[Malcolm McLeod]

This is GOOD LOOKING panel!! Some of my projects have been wire bomb repairs - after you dig thru the dust and rancid soybean oil.

Gut tells me its the brake, but with original gone you may never know.

I'd replace fuses with 20A slo-blo, or maybe 25A slo-blo. CBs should still protect at 20A for wire and motor.

You can ID and label your wires pretty easily if you have a multi-meter, and hopefully a helper:
Simple way is to string a test (return) wire between panel and motor supply wire ends. It is just temporary and can go on stairs or in/out windows, whatever is easiest. Jumper one motor supply wire to test and Use meter on Ohms to check in panel for continuity between test wire and existing. When you get 'tone', label the wire on both ends. Repeat for others.

Other way doesn't need the return wire. At motor end jumper 2 wires together. Use meter in panel to find the pair that has continuity. Label both ends of both the same. Untwist and twist one of the labeled wires to a 3rd wire. Use meter to find this pair in panel and re-label the labeled wire uniquely. 3rd wire can be labeled uniquely as well. Repeat for others using one of the already ID'd wires as your return.

Hope this helps. Good luck and stay cool.

[James Baker SD]

Thanks for the ideas Malcolm. Have to admit I am depressed now. More I look the the attached photo of contactors, less I feel I understand things. Have spent the afternoon googling trying to find a pin definition for the contactors (no luck, obsolete model), but now suspect it has more connections on the back not visible in my photo. Also realize that the contactor comes in a million flavors with different coil voltages, different auxiliaries (whatever they are), different load voltages, no longer feel I have bought the correct ones on eBay if these are bad (as Phil suggested they might be). Tried again to get a real schematic of the system instead of the glorified block diagram I attached. It may be enough for an expert to go by, but a beginner needs more detail (like who drives the coil on the contactor and at what voltage, and what connectors are the coil).

On the plus side, the tech almost had it working, new brake would release when call button pushed, motor would spin and move cage. Problem was it always moved up even if I pushed the down button. So it could be close, hopefully as simple as the wiring of the start coil on the motor. But I was trying to fool myself into thinking I could fix any other problem as well.

James

[James Baker SD]

Malcolm:

Can you give me a short course on contactors (or point me to a web link)? My understanding of the circuit is falling apart here. I thought they were just another name for magnetic coil relays which could handle the power of a motor. Not sure any more. I used to think "UP" was an output from the CPU that closed 3 switches. "DOWN" was an output that closed 3 different switches. But I don't see how the output from the CPU make it over to the contactors in this schematic. That is why I fear my knowledge of contactors is the weak link.

In the photo I see what appears to be two contactors near each other with 8 connections each. But I cannot determine the function of those connections by looking at the crisscrossing wires. Are there more connections on the back I cannot see? Are they ganged together somehow so that a single signal controls them all? Any leads you can give me to get me started would be a great help. And thanks for the time you are investing in me. I really appreciate it (and everybody who has tried to help).

James

P.S. If you are ever in San Diego, stop by and I will show you my shop. We can talk about something I understand :)

[John Hubbs]

This is very simple and I am amazed an elevator contractor can't figure it out. On most, including yours, single phase motors, you reverse motor direction by swapping wires #5 and #8. You are correct in that the windings are in series for low voltage and parallel for high voltage. The start winding/cap get voltage via wires #5 or #8. Depending on which wire (#5 or #8) gets voltage first, determines rotation direction. The contactors should be doing this switching depending on which button is pushed on control panel. I can't help but believe the motor is wired wrong, or you have a bad contactor. You stating everything works fine when wired low voltage, but not high, reinforces belief motor is wired wrong.
Regards, John.

[Phil Thien]

My comment that you may have a bad contactor, leading to blown fuses, didn't take into account that they are rated similarly to your breakers. I thought these might be fuses on the controller designed to protect the controller from a bad contactor. And if that were the case, it would be a much smaller (rating) fuse.

I don't know why you have fuses and breakers other than fuses tend to trip much faster than breakers.

[Malcolm McLeod]

James, hang in there. You're 98% of the way there. Don't let my engine-babble get you down. Engineers get paid to figure out every possible failure mode for a system. If you know how it will fail, you can anticipate it in the design. Any idiot can build it when everything works; it takes an engineer to build it when NOTHING works! ...Makes us screaming pessimists. With egos, too. :cool:

"Contactors" and "Relays" are essentially the same thing and I use the terms interchangeably. The contactors you have and the criss-cross wiring is very typical. And, ANY industrial electrician can work on it, or spec and replace it if that's the path you choose. Based on what you describe, I'd put the run on Mister Elevator Man. If you choose such, you just need an electrician.

As I referenced earlier, you CAN do this with only 2 relays, which is exactly what designer seems to have done. Only one contactor at a time should be ON, otherwise the motor leads will connect in a 'short'. Logic for this safety should be in the PLC. Best-practice would be to make UP/DN functions exclusive, based on mechanical, electrical, AND logical interlocks.

Each side of your contactor set has a coil - each powered by separate 24VAC signals from PLC. As its AC, the polarity is not critical, and most contactor's coils will be labeled A1 & A2. These terminals are usually located farther back on the top or bottom body of contactor. This keeps the high voltage/load 'switched' wires out front for service.

The criss-cross wiring is not to be feared. Look at the schematic and note that contacts for D1, U1, D2, & U2 are all connected by same line. Physically, this is probably 3 separate short wires.

It looks like you have 2 each 4PST contactors. 4PST means "4 Pole, Single Throw" - - there are 4 switches (or poles), and each of the 4 has only a single in & out for a Normally-Open contact.

Auxiliary contacts are usually smaller, side-car-mounted contacts that are rated for less current than the main 'poles'. They would be used for interlocks (to keep UP & DN coils from energizing at same time), or maybe as a signal back to the PLC (i.e. that the contactor has in fact closed). A main pole or contact could also serve as an interlock/signal, if not needed for switching of the larger loads.

The schematic is cut-off, but I believe the "U" coil 'ON' signal comes from terminal 12 on the PLC. If this output from the PLC is 'ON', then your contactor on the right side should energize (the center bar should pull in). This closes all 4 of the switches (poles) in this contactor. Also note, you can push on this center bar and engage the motor - - just be careful. This may ignore all of the travel limits, and you could get that skylight or basement you never wanted. And don't push both at the same time.

Can't attach photos today ...?? But taken from your schematics - - the circle with 'U' in it is the 'UP' contactor coil; the double bars labeled U1, U2, etc are the contacts switched by this coil.

[Malcolm McLeod]

James, I looked up NEC for your set-up. Strongly recommend you don't let Mister Elevator convert motor to 115V.

NEC says 1.5Hp at 115V with 0-50ft of wire run = #10 AWG wire on 30A breaker; if distance increases to 50-100ft, you need #8 AWG wire).

I believe in your photo of contactors, I can see "14 AWG" on motor wiring. This wire will support 1.5Hp/230V at up to 150ft (on 15A breaker).

Also, I can't ID the specific make of contactor from photo, but I'm relatively certain that the divider block between the contactors is a mechanical interlock: whichever contactor pulls in first, there is a small tab or pin that moves with it and mechanically prevents the 2nd contactor from closing (even if coil is energized). Just a 'heads-up' if you decide/need to replace.

[James Baker SD]

Malcolm,

I climbed back up into the attic yesterday for a few hot minutes. The motor is literally only about 18 inches from the contactors but on the other side of the ceiling. Black wire takes a 4 or 5 foot path from contactors up to top of controller box, into flex conduit that bends down behind the controller and through the ceiling to motor, so my wires are pretty short.

I did push on each contactor to see if it moves (with breakers off) and I can push either one in or both together. If that block in between is an interlock, it does not seem to be working, at least when system has no power. Maybe I did not push them in far enough, I was afraid of damaging them. I am pretty sure they were Sprecher+Schuh CA3-16-10, an obsolete model. I did see additional connection points on top and bottom which appear to be the coil. Both are grounded on the bottom pin, top pins go back to the CPU to the UP and DOWN outputs. Part of the schematic I did not post shows a 4th pair of UP/DOWN switches tied to an input on the CPU apparently as a feedback.

Thinking back to my discussions with the tech, I think I see his "logic" now. He seems to think the motor uses 0 and +230 volts to operate (after all that is what his DVM shows him). Forget sine waves going positive and negative at different phases; his meter shows a nice, steady "DC-like" 240V. He also thinks every wire sticking out of that motor has 230V on it. The brake coil is rated for 115V, so he fears a direct connection from motor to brake coil will destroy coil. Now if I will just let him reconfigure the motor for 115V operation, every wire sticking out of the motor will have 115V on it and connection to brake coil will be safe. Problem I think is he is leaving some important motor connections floating or permanently connected in one configuration and that prevents the contactors from switching the start winding as necessary. I tried to give him a lesson in basic dual voltage motors, but between being hot, tired, frustrated and too proud, he wasn't willing to listen to a dumb customer.

Just for laughs, here is the controller. Contactors down in lower left.

319954

[Malcolm McLeod]

NEC does say anything from 0 to 50 ft. So you may wish to consider the inspection side of going to 115V:
- Is a residential elevator routinely inspected? (I know commercial ones are)
- Code enforcement might red-tag this?
- Resale home inspector might cite as exception?
I can't support this decision (if made), but I won't belabor it further.

All said, it will probably work since there are some safety margins in NEC ratings. If you do convert to 115V motor supply, you can't connect brake as per schematics. You'll have to connect brake between (switched 115V) T1 and T4 (now a 'neutral'). And, redraw the schematics, or the next owner will do something on your grave that "won't pass for flowers" (Harry Morgan, The Shootist).

Regardless, you need a competent electrician. To date, the tech is neither.

[Charles Lent]

James, Malcolm knows what he's talking about. I'm a retired automation engineer (EE) who designed automated manufacturing machine control systems for my whole career. Alas, I'm on the wrong coast and further from you than Malcolm.

Keep looking for the right local electrical guy. Possibly an ad in the paper or Craigslist seeking an electrician who understands AC motor reversing circuits will find him for you. Printing presses use this type of motor reversing circuit for raising and lowering the stacks of paper at each end of the presses, so an electrical technician from an offset printing equipment supplier should be a good choice. Many overhead indoor factory cranes also use this type of circuit so someone who maintains them should be a good choice.

So as not to further confuse your problems I will stand by and let Malcolm help you, but I'll be here in case I might be able to help later on.

Charley

[James Baker SD]

Thanks again Malcolm:

My thoughts now, then I will stop posting on this thread until I can post a final result, are:

Elevator has not been inspected since we moved in because we are stupid.:(
Plan to live here until we die, whatever charity we donate the house to will have to worry about the resale inspection :)
I have no intention of letting tech try to rewire system in a way it was not designed, will leave it as a closet first. :mad:
Doubt I can find a competent electrician to work on it as they would not want the liability risks involved if some other part of the elevator failed, but they were last one to touch it.:eek:

Bottom line, elevator worked a year ago, cage moved up or down a week ago, controller is probably OK. I am going to go up and wire the motor as I interpret the schematic and see what happens.:confused:
Will have wife standing by circuit breakers just in case.:D

Think we can consider this thread wrapped up until I post results. Thanks again to all who participated.

[Malcolm McLeod]

The overall photo was big help for me. In case this will help you in your efforts, this is what I would do:
319955
I left the coils and feedback circuits off for clarity.

Good luck! Be safe!

[James Baker SD]

Elevator is moving, just not as I expected yet.

another sheet of the schematics
320010

[James Baker SD]

Up. Down. Up. Down. Up. Down.

What a boring, repetitive life, but at least it lives.

Haven't got the courage to ride in it yet, maybe someday.

Many thanks to all who helped and a special shout out to Malcolm for assistance above and beyond the call of duty.

James

[Phil Thien]

That is great news.

And yes, Malcolm is a handy guy to keep around SMC.

[Charles Lent]

Glad you solved your problem. I was trying to justify taking a vacation trip to San Diego so I could help and I wasn't coming up with any good stories to tell the wife. Malcolm made you an expert, so you should be able to fix it easily the next time that it breaks. :~)

Charley

[James Baker SD]

reviving an old thread.

Hard to believe, but I am still working on this elevator. The boring life of up-down-up-down I mentioned in my last post lasted about a week, then it died again with similar symptoms to its original death, jerking motion. Tech told me from eyeball, grease looked fine, nothing looked warn out, that he had brake working. We only had the lack of custom motor problem. I stupidly trusted him on all this.

Resetting thermal overload (instead of blown fuses) got it moving again but still jerky. Checked the grease on the guide rails with my finger (at least 18 year old grease) and it was more like glue than grease, so cleaned rails and regreased them. Checked oil in gear box and it was way low, so refilled it. Things looked OK again. Still not great, but OK. For another week that is.

Run a little smoother with new grease, but still died again and with horrible burning smell, feared I had fried the new motor. Went up into the attic and the smoke was coming off the brake pads. Reset thermal overload again and had wife try to run it. Brake did not budge, did nothing at all. Why did this surprise me, after all my "tech" had said he had the brake working.

Now for irony of ironies. Tech stopped working when I would not let him rewire controller to run motor at 120V, which he said was necessary to protect 120V brake coil. I felt brake coil could be wired as shown in schematic, he said that required a custom designed motor. Looking closely at new brake coil which the tech installed (saying the original was dead) and he bought the wrong bleepin coil, clearly has 230V (old technology, old terminology) printed on the side. Not only was I not burning the coil out by wiring it to the motor, but at 120V it was not even activating. For kludge test jumpered the coil with external wires to run at 240V when controller wants it to run. Had wife test again. Now the coil moved and tried to release brake. Dual arm brake had one arm frozen and all motion was to the other arm.

This stopped me for several weeks, but finally decided to pry the brake apart with battery terminal puller (I was not strong enough to do it by hand). Bearing surface was nominally 3/8" and a 3/8" twist drill would fall through the bearing that moved. I could not force it through the frozen bearing. Brake arm got damaged somewhere along the way and bearing hole was out of round. Rebored it to 3/8", cleaned and grease moving surfaces, scuffed up pads slightly and cleaned off spray oil from brake drum (splatter when trying to unfreeze the stuck arm). Rewired brake inside motor wiring box to remove the external kludge patch, and put it all back together.

Brake now opens evenly and again elevator seems happy. At least for now, but it has been happy before. After a few trips up and down, I either got brave or stupid (don't know which) and climbed inside from the lower level, pushed up and rode it upstairs, first human cargo in about 7 years.

I have run it once each day since that night, either up or down, and so far so good, it is still running and running smoother and quieter than I ever remember. Will never know exactly what was wrong, probably a combination of things due to lack of maintenance for 17 years, but doubt the only elevator company willing to look at it, would have ever gotten it to run again. Still worried every time I push a button though, too many short lived successes this past year to feel confident yet.

Learned more about elevators than I would have thought possible, it has been an experience to say the least.

Again, another thank you to Malcolm who has been helping me via PM all this time.

[Charles Lent]

I think it will be fine now. The brake mechanical problem is what likely caused all of this trouble. It may have damaged the original motor, but probably not.
Thanks for finally telling us about your success.

Charley