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View Full Version : Something's not right with the new 'watered down' Cermark



Kev Williams
08-15-2015, 2:46 AM
Some of you may remember my not so nice posts about the last 500g bottle of Cermark 'paste' I bought that turned out to be the consistency of chocolate milk rather than the molasses like it used to be. I was told by Laserbits, Engravers Network, and someone on Ebay that Cermark had to change the formula because they were unable to acquire one of their proprietary ingredients.

I can only hope and pray that they soon CAN acquire that proprietary ingredient, because:
(A) whatever's in it now is causing 304 stainless to discolor and oxidize in the presence of water, and
(B) whereas the old stuff was extremely water soluble, and simply rinsed off very easily, this stuff hangs on for dear life, even when using a scrub brush and dish soap!

After I got over my initial disgust, I've found the new formula DOES work about the same as the old, and when it's all said and done, I've found I'm still able to get roughly a 10 to 1 mix of DNA to Cermark, and it sprays very well. So for those reasons, I'll give the new formula ONE star..

But no further stars. Because seriously, there's something wrong with it.

With the old version, I could run off 100 ID tags, and let them soak in a plastic pail of water--indefinitely- until I got around to rinsing them off and towel drying...

But tonight, for the second time in a week, letting the plates soak in a pail of water-tonight for only 5 minutes- the plates started discoloring in spots. I did 100 of these plates tonight, and about 25 of them have blemishes like in the pics. My procedure was: I put them in a pail and covered them with water. 5 minutes later I pulled them out in little handfuls and ran water over them, and set them on a makeshift table that spans the sink. Then I scrubbed each one with a brush and dishsoap mix, and put them back in the pail, all the while water is filling the pail. After the scrubbing, I poured out the water, and noticed black crud oozing from between some of the plates (this happened a few days ago too). I rinsed them again, then laid them out on a towel, and wiped the top sides dry with another towel...

Then I started taking pictures. (sorry for all the redactions)--

In the first pic, notice the haze of Cermark still on the surface, this after a rinse, a scrubdown, another rinse and a final towel wipedown. At least Weinman's SS cleaner will make them look good.

http://www.engraver1.com/erase2/cm1.jpg


The rest of the pics show the oxidation, or whatever it is, that's happening to the plates as they sit next to each other in the water. I've accidentally gotten muriatic acid on some of the stainless on my boat when using it to remove calcium deposits from the hull. Muriatic acid discolors stainless much the same way. Kinda spooky that Cermark is doing it. I have found that I can rub part or all of the marks off with some cleanser, but, that also rubs off the etching, so that doesn't fly...

Here's a few pics, all of different plates. In 40 years of engraving, and 10 years of using Cermark, I've never had SS do this...

http://www.engraver1.com/erase2/cm2.jpg


http://www.engraver1.com/erase2/cm3.jpg


http://www.engraver1.com/erase2/cm4.jpg


http://www.engraver1.com/erase2/cm5.jpg


http://www.engraver1.com/erase2/cm6.jpg


http://www.engraver1.com/erase2/cm7.jpg


http://www.engraver1.com/erase2/cm8.jpg





http://www.engraver1.com/erase2/cm10.jpg


http://www.engraver1.com/erase2/cm9.jpg


==================================


For now I'll just make sure to scrub and rinse every part one at a time...

For the record- I'm using Ajax dish soap, that's been here long before the Cermark change, I'm using the same DNA from HD as always as thinner, and the SS I'm using (1" x 3" plates tonight) is from a batch I've had also before the change. So, the only thing in this 'experiment' that has changed is the Cermark...

Bernie Fraser
08-15-2015, 6:58 AM
Thanks for posting this Kev. You have some good detail there and hopefully else can chime in with their findings on the new formula. Would be interesting to know what the manufacturers make of your findings?. Wonder how much of the old stuff is still out there sitting in some distributors stockpile?. Will be watching this post carefully, Thanks

Mike Null
08-15-2015, 7:58 AM
I'm inclined to think the stainless steel may be the problem.

Gary Hair
08-15-2015, 10:52 AM
I'm inclined to think the stainless steel may be the problem.

Yep, I agree. The only time I have ever seen anything like this was with some cheap Chinese stainless that a customer provided.

Kev Williams
08-15-2015, 11:49 AM
I can get a certificate of origin for the stainless.
These symptoms are likely caused by one of two issues, either an acidic reaction, or galvanic corrosion. I'm inclined to believe it's galvanic...

I just hauled our steel-hulled houseboat out of Utah Lake a month ago to find the hull is being eaten alive by stray current corrosion, and as a result I've been doing a ton of research on metal corrosion.

Anyone with a boat knows (or should ;) ) that when you put 2 dissimilar metals next to each other in water, the 2 metals instantly become a battery with the water acting as the electrolyte. The more electrically noble metal becomes the cathode, the less nobel metal the anode. Electrons migrate from the anode to the cathode, causing the anode to slowly disentegrate. This is galvanic corrosion.

That said, the reason I believe a galvanic action is taking place is because if you look at pics, you'll notice some of the marks look much like mushroom clouds, most look like something 'pushed' the mark by force(?) -- my point being, an electric charge, IMO, would cause marks like these, whereas an acidic reaction would just sit and stew a bit...

I also notice while the wet plates were laying together waiting to be rinsed, black ooze was coming from between some of them, and the ooze was moving much faster than gravity would move it.

So it could be a new ingredient in the Cermark is a metal of some kind. OR, maybe it's always been there, and my stainless IS the problem.

I don't have a lot of free time to run tests but I AM going to try and recreate the problem with different scraps of stainless I have here, some of which I know are several years old, and I have plenty of 316 to play with...

Scott Shepherd
08-15-2015, 11:58 AM
Contrary to popular belief, stainless will rust when oxygen is taken from it. Lay a piece of wood on stainless for a while and you'll see stainless rust (That wasn't said for your Kev, I know you're aware of it, just a general note).

If you wet a couple of the pieces of stainless and let them sit, stacked together, do they do that too?

Ron Gosnell
08-15-2015, 1:18 PM
How about a little baking soda in the water.
Would that help neutralize the chemical reactions ?

Gozzie

Kev Williams
08-15-2015, 2:16 PM
I'm in the middle of some testing. So far, cheap SS is ahead 1 to zip...

Test 1, I test engraved 2 pieces of pre-brushed #4 finish 304 SS that know has been here at least 2 years,
Test 2, ditto except I used #4 finished 316 SS.

The only reaction so far is that it's harder to rinse off as I noted. Otherwise looks nice.

So the next step is to use some canned Cermark I've had since well before the change on the suspect stainless...

-if the old Cermark causes a reaction, then the SS is definitely to blame...
-if the old Cermark does NOT cause a reaction, then it's safe to say something about the new Cermark is causing a reaction with "bad" stainless, not so much with "good" stainless.

When I get a few minutes I'll run some test plates.

And fwiw, the count of affected plates from last night's 100 plates:
18 plates had marks on the front only
10 of those 18 plates also had marks on the back
17 plates had marks on the backs only.

That's 35 out of 100 plates affected...

SO, if I run 6 plates with old Cermark, IF a reaction is going to happen, at least one of 6 plates should be affected...

Scott Shepherd
08-15-2015, 3:27 PM
Not that it matters, but I've engraved stainless a number of times with the new car ark formulation and I didn't see any issues with the things you mentioned.

Steve Clarkson
08-15-2015, 6:30 PM
IMHO, it's the soap. I used soap once to clean cermark off stainless and it tarnished it just like in your pictures. I've never used soap again.

Gary Hair
08-15-2015, 6:43 PM
I've never used soap again.

You mean on parts, right?

Steve Clarkson
08-15-2015, 7:15 PM
No Christmas card for you this year Gary......

Gary Hair
08-15-2015, 8:46 PM
No Christmas card for you this year Gary......

I'm just glad we're on opposite ends of the continent, and that the winds tend to blow from West to East...

Dan Hintz
08-18-2015, 4:47 PM
I'm inclined to think the stainless steel may be the problem.


I'm with Mike (and Gary).

Try this... add some vinegar to your water bucket. Let us know if that stops the staining...

Dave Sheldrake
08-18-2015, 5:03 PM
Stainless is a modern miss-nomer, it's actually Stains Less Steel (that we shorten to stainless)

I agree with the guys, I'm inclined to think it's the metal rather than the cermark

Jon Sollee
08-18-2015, 7:15 PM
Had the same thing happen to me when lasing metals parts for a big client. Some parts would come out "all rusted looking". It was due to not cleaning the part off efficiently and washing them with regular tap water. The water here in LA has a lot of minerals and ruins the metal completely. It is not the Cermark...Its the metal. We now use De-ionized water that we get from a fish store to clean Cermark off our metal parts and it works like a charm. No more blemishes and make sure you have two different buckets when cleaning. One for the base wash and one for the rinse. Make sure they are completely dry before packing. This is what worked for us, just my .02 on the situation.

Keith Colson
08-18-2015, 9:11 PM
I wonder if the time to clean is the issue? I engrave large quantities of stainless. But my washing process only last seconds. I take the jobs outside and squirt them with the hose, a quick scrub with a nylon dish brush and rinse. I dry with a towel immediately (usually while the laser is engraving the next batch). I like to use the laser engraving time to prep and clean the products.