Biscuit Question

[Raymond Fries]

I want to build a smaller workbench for my shop. I really like the "Not So Big Workbench" that FWW offers. Wondering if biscuits will be strong enough for a bench or do I need to spend the time to do all of the M&T work? I do not have a mortise machine so I am looking for possible alternatives to save time on the build. I thought about floating tenons and I have a router. However, it is the big Dewalt 725 and I have never tried to use it for mortises and it may be a bit hard to handle.

Do you have any thoughts on the subject?

[Mike Henderson]

Biscuits probably won't be strong enough. A workbench is a good project to learn M&T work. You can drill out the mortises and clean the up with chisels and you can do the tenons on the table saw.

Mike

[Jamie Buxton]

I'm with Mike: ideal project to learn mortise and tenon. However, I'm a big fan of using a plunge router with an edge guide to cut the mortises. I'm guessing you mean to say DeWalt 625 router, not 725. It will do a good job.

[Jim Dwight]

I've made quite few mortises with a PC 690 plunge router. I used a spiral upcut bit but I think a straight bit with a bottom cutter would work fine.

If you really don't want to do mortise and tenon joints, pocket screws are stronger than biscuits as are dowels.

[Lee Schierer]

As others have noted, biscuits will not be strong enough for your bench frame joints. Biscuits are intended primarily for alignment of parts and except for butt and miter joints, they add little if any strength.

[Dan Rude]

I would try bench bolts like these http://www.rockler.com/heavy-duty-cross-dowel-and-bolt-8-pack I am looking at them for bench build myself. Dan

[John Lankers]

I want to build a smaller workbench for my shop. I really like the "Not So Big Workbench" that FWW offers. Wondering if biscuits will be strong enough for a bench or do I need to spend the time to do all of the M&T work? I do not have a mortise machine so I am looking for possible alternatives to save time on the build. I thought about floating tenons and I have a router. However, it is the big Dewalt 725 and I have never tried to use it for mortises and it may be a bit hard to handle.

Do you have any thoughts on the subject?

Give it a try, you might end up liking it.

[Roy Harding]

Biscuits don't add any strength (maybe a little on end grain to end grain joints - mitres, for example) - their primary usefulness (in my opinion) is alignment.

This is a GREAT time to get comfortable with M&T - big, huge, beefy parts to assemble. Big enough that there's little chance of blowing through a mortise, and large enough that if your joint needs shimming, it won't be a major problem (like it can be on teeny, tiny items).

I can't speak to your particular router, but I'd suggest that the larger the project, the more room for error (and recovery from them) than is present in a smaller project. A workbench is a perfect project to get familiar with it.

[Darrin Vanden Bosch]

Yes biscuits would be strong enough, double them up. It would be best to not move your workbench around though as the pushing and pulling will put stresses on those same joints. I do agree M&T would be much stronger and would be an invaluable lesson to learn. Get some experience with M&T, there are many ways to do it without all the store bought jigs.

[Roy Harding]

Yes biscuits would be strong enough, double them up. It would be best to not move your workbench around though as the pushing and pulling will put stresses on those same joints. I do agree M&T would be much stronger and would be an invaluable lesson to learn. Get some experience with M&T, there are many ways to do it without all the store bought jigs.

I would submit that that the proviso "It would be best to not move your workbench around ... " makes the point that biscuits won't be sufficient in this application. Joints in workbenches exist to ensure that the racking forces inherent in "pushing and pulling" are overcome.

[Wade Lippman]

Biscuits don't add any strength (maybe a little on end grain to end grain joints - mitres, for example) - their primary usefulness (in my opinion) is alignment.


I always wonder if people who say this have actually tried biscuits or are just repeating what they have heard.
I made a butt joint with nothing glued except the biscuit. It was remarkably strong. Try it.

That said, I have gotten rid of my biscuit cutter. Once you develop a little skill you don't need them for alignment, and the rare time they might be useful, a domino is better. But still...

I have used my breakfast room chairs, made entirely with biscuits, every day for 12 years now and they are solid. I wish I had a domino then, but still...

[Roy Harding]

I always wonder if people who say this have actually tried biscuits or are just repeating what they have heard.
I made a butt joint with nothing glued except the biscuit. It was remarkably strong. Try it.

That said, I have gotten rid of my biscuit cutter. Once you develop a little skill you don't need them for alignment, and the rare time they might be useful, a domino is better. But still...

I have used my breakfast room chairs, made entirely with biscuits, every day for 12 years now and they are solid. I wish I had a domino then, but still...

To answer your question - yes, I have (and still DO) used biscuits. They do not add any appreciable strength to a face grain/face grain (IE - panel glue up) joint. As we all know, a properly executed glue joint is already stronger than the wood itself. I occasionally, but not often, still use biscuits to aid in alignment of parts - not on panel glue ups, but in some other instances. I have never used biscuits for alignment of panel glue ups - I guess my skill level must have always been sufficient to dispense with them (not to mention that they weren't in wide usage, at least by hobbyists, when I started woodworking). Where I DO use biscuits consistently is on mitre joints, or small end grain/face grain joints such as frames, where the strength of a MT joint is not required (face frames for small clocks, frames, etcetera).

All that said - you do make a good point, I'm also of the opinion that occasionally folks ARE just repeating what they've "heard" - in my own posts, should such be the case, I will always indicate it. Otherwise, my occasional contributions are based on my personal experience as a hobbyist woodworker for well over 30 years, and making my living at constructing custom furniture and casework for the past 10 years - in my little one man shop.

I don't have a Domino, and don't envision getting one - I do use the technique (loose tenons) upon occasion, and find it useful.

In the case under consideration in this thread, IE - construction of a workbench, biscuits (or "flat dowels", or Lamellos (the original manufacturer), as they are also known) are NOT the answer - they will hold the frame together, but they won't resist the racking forces inherent in the normal usage of a woodworking bench. A loose tenon, or Domino joint would be better than a biscuit joint, but its' resistance to racking would depend upon the length of the loose tenons (not having used a Domino, I'm not aware of their length).

I think the original poster would be well advised to use this opportunity to learn the basics of mortise and tenon construction - the opportunity to execute this joint on such large, beefy material will enable him to add this joint to his arsenal of woodworking techniques with relative ease, in a forgiving environment. It's also an excellent opportunity for him to experiment with large dovetails - another joint which would be excellent in this application.

[John TenEyck]

I've used biscuits in lots of places others wouldn't, but this is not one of them. Biscuits are reasonable strong in tension or shear, but lousy if the joint is racked sideways. A workbench is subject to all kinds of stresses, not the least of which is when it's dragged around. So I agree with the others who recommended you use bolts or better still M&T joints. I use mostly loose tenons, and I would not hesitate to do so with a workbench. But if you buy the current issue of FWW you'll see how you can make a workbench with M&T joints without ever have to route/drill/chop one mortise, using nothing more than a dado blade.

John

[Roy Harding]

I've used biscuits in lots of places others wouldn't, but this is not one of them. Biscuits are reasonable strong in tension or shear, but lousy if the joint is racked sideways. A workbench is subject to all kinds of stresses, not the least of which is when it's dragged around. So I agree with the others who recommended you use bolts or better still M&T joints. I use mostly loose tenons, and I would not hesitate to do so with a workbench. But if you buy the current issue of FWW you'll see how you can make a workbench with M&T joints without ever have to route/drill/chop one mortise, using nothing more than a dado blade.

John

John's right about the M&T joints without having to actually chop, route, etcetera. Here's a link to plan which has been around FOREVER. I made this bench (or another version just like it - the linked article says it was published in FWW in 2006, but I've had mine since the late '80s/early '90s) 25ish years ago - it was used and abused as my main workbench for 20 years, and it remained rock solid - the base is still in use as the base for my assembly table - I just removed the top and replaced it with a torsion box.

The point is that the bench uses M&T joints (although uniquely constructed), and NEVER racked or weakened. Give it a look - http://www.startwoodworking.com/plans/rock-solid-plywood-bench

[Brian Holcombe]

A workbench is a perfect opportunity to work on your joinery cutting skills and since the material is large is can generally be worked on heavy sawhorses.

You don't need a mortise machine to cut mortises. You can route out most of the waste and pare them to size with a sharp chisel. You can chop them out with a mortise chisel or you can do a combination of drilling a hole and chopping the remainder. If they are through tenons you can drill a hole, fit a bowsaw through it and saw out the majority of the waste and pare the remainder.

[Raymond Fries]

Thanks for all of the feedback everyone. I tend to agree that this is an excellent opportunity to master M&T. I had not thought much about the racking forces on the bench and I see why the M&T is better. I have made four through tenons on a project for my wife so I am certainly lacking an excellent skill.

The workstations I am just finishing used biscuits to join all of the end-grain surfaces. After reading this, I went back and added a screw into each leg at each corner as you can see in the photograph. The same screw was added to the lower frame. These benches will not move around but I guess a little extra holding power never hurts.

Thanks for the link Roy. I will look closer at this choice.