A new "I'm about to buy my first real table saw" thread

[Mike Dowell]

I've looked all over these forums and found so many different threads similar to mine, but with this being the largest purchase I've ever made, I feel the need to start a current, up to the minute, customized thread just for me!:D

So, as many of you might know from reading other posts of mine, I own an antique restoration shop. I'm currently using a $300 Dewalt jobsite table saw which I've wanted to upgrade for years, and business is finally allowing me to do just that - so a real table saw, I must have.

I'm considering the SS PCS31230-TGP252 http://www.woodcraft.com/product/847463/sawstop-3-hp-professional-cabinet-saw-with-52-professional-tglide-fence-system-pcs31230tgp252.aspx
and the Unisaw equivalent(or close to) http://www.amazon.com/Delta-Motor-UNISAW-BIESEMEYER-System/dp/B002YQDKM8

Both seem like nice saws(although I've not used or even seen in person, either of them), but I am sort of leaning toward the unisaw because it's $500 less if I'm willing to be mindful of my fingers.

I don't, or rather *won't* spend more than $3000. Are there any candidates in which I'm foolish not to consider? Also, if you think my choices aren't good ones, just say so - I come here when I need serious advice;).

Also, is it reasonable to say that I won't be using my miter saw much any more because I can how use all sorts of sleds and jigs? I'm just finding more ways to justify the purchase, and "a tool that does the work of two" is a great justification! I use the table saw on a daily basis, and I'm tired of the Dewalt being so small. I frequently need to cut stock larger than 20" and it always irritates me in that way. is 52" ridiculous though? Would 36" be just fine?

Your thoughts?

[Paul McGaha]

Hi Mike,

Between the 2 saws you mentioned I'd vote for the Sawstop. Both of them are very nice selections I think.

Personally, I have a Unisaw with a 52" Biesemeyer fence. I like having the larger capacity and use it on occasion.

The only other suggestion I have would be if you think you might have an interest in a slider, maybe reach out to someone that lives near you and would be willing to let you see one operate up close. Something like a Hammer seems to be priced at not that far off from a top quality cabinet saw.

Most, pretty much all, of my cross cutting is done at my miter station that consists of a 10" sliding miter saw and a pair of Biesemeyer miter saw tables.

Good luck with the purchase, Getting a new table saw is a big deal.

PHM

[Eduard Nemirovsky]

I agreed with Mike. SS is a very good quality saw, I would go with SS. I did have one of the first SS contractor type for many years, recently sold and bought sliding saw combination machine. Size of the fence depend on your shop size, how many times you will use all 52" of surface.
For sure you can buy a Grizzly, I can not say anything bad about they saws, and safe some money for something. But this is your decision.
Ed.

[Mike Henderson]

Go with the SawStop.

Mike

[Danny Hamsley]

Would you buy a new car without air bags?

[Joe Jensen]

Do you have any employees? Even if you don't the insurance on your business might go down with the Sawstop. I'd vote sawstop...joe

[Michael W. Clark]

I would also look at a short stroke slider. It has the added benefit of greatly reducing kickbacks.
if the Delta is a consideration, you may want to look at Grizzly and compare.

[Mike Dowell]

Oh my, it seems SS is a very popular saw around these parts! It's interesting to consider a slider as I never knew they existed until this thread. Don't they take up more room? My shop is 25x25, but I've always got customer furniture in it, plus I do have 1 employee, and he's got a work area as well. So, size is a definite consideration. I was thinking of the 52" only because I hate it when I need a tool to do something, and it's not capable. So, I just figure, if I'm going to drop some serious cash on a cabinet saw, I may as well go full tilt.

Is the slider sort of a distant cousin to the radial arm?

[eugene thomas]

If ya have employ and get the non slider would go with ss.

[Jerry Miner]

Mike-- I work in a cabinet shop. Our main table saw has a 52" rip capacity. We rarely cut anything over 36"---and then only sheet goods (plywood).

At home, I have a table saw with a 36" rip capacity. I don't rip full plywood sheets. I have never (30 years so far) needed more rip capacity.

[Bruce Page]

I have a 16 yr old Unisaw that I love but if I were buying a new table saw today it would have flesh sensing technology, no question.

[Cary Falk]

Delta is circling the drain. Parts seem to be an issue. I would never consider them at this point.

[Frank Martin]

If no slider, I would not look for any other than SawStop.

[Ralph Butts]

Mike there are quite a few threads on the forum regarding small format slider table saws. Grizzly and Hammer both offer several options. Ironically there is a used Hammer C331 combination machine in my area for sale on C/L. You shouldn't have a problem working with a short stroke slider in a 25 x 25 shop. The decision on what type of saw will fit your needs is one only you can make. Your shop size should not be a limiting factor in your decision process. Lastly I would not even consider a slider being related in any way to a radial arm saw.

[Gene Takae]

I vote SS as well. I know some people have issues with the the inventor's actions but the saw itself is very well made and the safety factor is a huge plus.

[Art Mann]

Don't let questions like "How much are your fingers worth?" and similar comments unduly influence your decision. Most people who own a table saw don't hurt themselves on it whether it is Sawstop brand or not. I have a 40 year record of no injuries and so do many others on this forum. The key is you need to learn correct techniques and the root causes of table saw accidents. If you are still full of anxiety, then it is probably worth it to buy the Sawstop at the premium price just for the piece of mimd..

[Mike Dowell]

I'm trying to educate myself on sliders. What's the point? I guess I could see an advantage that you don't have to build a crosscut sled, but what am I missing? Is this the next big thing/new idea?

[Ralph Butts]

Sliding table saws have been around. You are correct in that you will no longer need to build and use a cross cut sled. When using the sliding table saw your hands are not near the blade so that you reduce the risk of coming into contact with the blade during normal operations by changing the way you operate. A major risk associated with table saws is kickback. The flesh sensing technology will not provide any risk aversion with regards to kickback. The sliding table format table saw greatly reduces this risk based upon the way the work piece is secured to the sliding table and smooth linear motion of the table transporting the work piece through the saw blade cutting area. No axial movement of the work piece wedged against a fence. No hands or fingers near the cutting blade during operation. Just as there are different quality manufactures with cabinet style saws the same is true with sliding table saw. A good quality sliding table saw has been a fantastic investment for many forum members. A good quality flesh sensing technology saw has been a good investment for many other forum members. Unfortunately kickback risk is not addressed by the flesh sensing technology market. This does not take anything away from the quality of the saw. If you do a little searching on this site you will see how quickly threads on this subject quickly go left. For me a slider was the answer. Space issues did not keep me from examining all of my options. Sliders are not just for sheet goods as some have intimated. They are highly accurate, safe and in my case rock solid. Everything I have read regarding SS in particular has noted that they are also quality machines and at the end of the day reducing the risk of kickback has everything to do with working safely. My purchasing decision was right for me. My best advice I can provide you is to do your homework and make the best decision for your needs.

[Mike Dowell]

Looks like I'm bound for youtube tonight :)

[ed vitanovec]

I guess it is what you feel most comfortable using, I had Unisaw and Grizzly Slider and was happy with both. Grizzly sells two small Sliding Table Saws that are nice G0700 and G0623X. I had the G0623X and was very happy with it, I felt the Slider added some safety to my hobby.

[Rick Potter]

The key, as mentioned above is that you have a business....and an employee. Talk to your insurance man. If he is on top of things he will be aware of the extra liability you will have if you knew about the SS and did not get it. Sorry if this sounds too strong. I don't want to alarm you, but it is a litigious world. The SS is a well rated machine, and as mentioned above, many believe it is not a good time to be buying a new Delta Unisaw. Just my opinion.

I cut my Unisaw fence down to 32" or so, and never regretted it. Bought a new SS 36". Got it for less than the Unisaw at Rockler.

Sliding table saws are great, but they primarily for sheet goods, and are not related to sliding miter saws.

[Mike Dowell]

Don't riving knives prevent kickback? I've not ever experienced kickback and don't want to either.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Go with the SawStop.


Would you buy a new car without air bags?

Pfffffth...........

GovCo has dictated that you cannot buy a new car w/o air bags - that is a straw man, Danny, my friend. Would you buy a new house wired with knob and tube wiring?

Buy what you want. Don't stick your hand in the blade, or in the jointer cutters, or in the band saw blade, or under the DP quill, or beneath the CMS blade, or between the mortiser chisel and the target, or on the car door frame as you slam the door closed, or.....or....or...........or in front of the blade on Danny's bandmill...........

Sincerely,
SSS Central Committee

;)

[william watts]

I purchased a s/s because of the posts on this site about it's accuracy, it's true, it was highly accurate right out of the box. Required no adjustment of any kind. It's the same model your talking about, but with the 36 in. fence set up. The safety is a plus that just makes it more desirable . You need to add dust collection if you do not already have it. Its a must with a s/s.

Time will tell if parts remain available for it, but there are many reports that Delta no longer supplies parts for their equipment.

[Mike Dowell]

Ok, well through all of this, I think I've decided that I'm going to be looking in the 36" fence category. I definitely will not get a Delta based on a couple pieces of feedback on here. I also think I'm going to stick with a traditional table saw, and not try my hand at a slider model - it just seems foreign to me, and if I end up not liking it, I'm stuck.

That said, SS is the obvious favorite on here based on the feedback, but answer me this: If I decided that I didn't want to pay the extra for a SS because I wasn't concerned about the safety feature, what is a "can't go wrong" 36" table saw?

I will definitely take everyone's word for it that the SS is a wonderful machine, but there's something about it that concerns me. I'm worried about the reliability of the equipment which comprises the flesh sensing stuff. To put it differently, when I think of a table saw, I think of a motor and a blade, but when I think of the SS, it's like a heated steering wheel - I'm thinking it's just one more complicated electrical doodad that's going to break at some point. Am I foolish for this train of thought?

[Danny Hamsley]

Kent,

Hard to argue with your logic :).

[Mike Dowell]

Why is dust collection a must?

[Allan Speers]

It's interesting to consider a slider as I never knew they existed until this thread. Don't they take up more room? My shop is 25x25, but I've always got customer furniture in it, plus I do have 1 employee, and he's got a work area as well. So, size is a definite consideration. I was thinking of the 52" only because I hate it when I need a tool to do something, and it's not capable. So, I just figure, if I'm going to drop some serious cash on a cabinet saw, I may as well go full tilt.

Sliders are great for cutting larger pieces, but many folks do that with a track saw. For smaller pieces, while a slider is still wonderful to have, you can do very well with a good miter-sled instead, such as the Incra 5000.

Of course, if you're running a commercial shop, then a slider is probably a great use of space.

[Mike Cutler]

Why is dust collection a must?

For your long term health. Wood dust is can be bad for your long term health. From sinus issues to lung cancer. It just depends on the individual.

A "can't go wrong" cabinet saw?
Powermatic 66, in whatever size you need.

PS.
Safety technology aside, the Sawstop, 3HP cabinet saw, is a very well made machine. Every bit the equal of any cabinet saw in that price range.;)

[James Baker SD]

Pfffffth...........

GovCo has dictated that you cannot buy a new car w/o air bags - that is a straw man, Danny, my friend. Would you buy a new house wired with knob and tube wiring?

Buy what you want. Don't stick your hand in the blade, or in the jointer cutters, or in the band saw blade, or under the DP quill, or beneath the CMS blade, or between the mortiser chisel and the target, or on the car door frame as you slam the door closed, or.....or....or...........or in front of the blade on Danny's bandmill...........

Sincerely,
SSS Central Committee

;)
Or under the sewing machine needle. DAHIK, but I was only 4 or 5 at the time. :eek:

[mreza Salav]

A small "good" slider (European brand) runs you around $4500 at least. You'll be still ripping like a cabinet saw on that, so the "safety" isn't really not much better than a regular cabinet saw, unless you only rip short (say shorter than 8') and use the sliding action instead of the fence.
If you want to buy a cabinet saw SS is the best choice IMO especially that you have a business. I'd not touch a Delta.

[william watts]

Why is dust collection a must?

There's a dust shroud around the lower 1/2 of the blade, connected to a 4in. hose that connects to a 4 in. port at the back of the saw. Dust blows out this port, lots of it, but not all, some remains in the hose, it will build up. Dust will blow out the of the shroud and be deposited on the workings of the saw. Including the safety cartridge, a little dust is ok according to the instruction book, but not lots. The dust that blows out the port will be deposited in a nice even coat thru out your shop. I learned this like I learn most things. I also learned you can use leaf blower to clean up.

I think a lot of saws in this class use the same system. They will blow dust like a hurricane, not like a job site saw.

[David Kumm]

I have to throw in the "look at used " statement. Table saws are one of the best deals out there. Used sliders can be within your budget, and really well built saws and a vfd can be had for 1500-2500. Delta 12-14, PM 72. I'm partial to short stroke cast iron saws and 3K buys any of them. Look up Jack's videos of his Wadkin PK. If nothing else you will learn about all the options out there. I just know I would not buy a non slider when sliders are so cheap. Dave

[John Lankers]

I have to throw in the "look at used " statement. Table saws are one of the best deals out there. Used sliders can be within your budget, and really well built saws and a vfd can be had for 1500-2500. Delta 12-14, PM 72. I'm partial to short stroke cast iron saws and 3K buys any of them. Look up Jack's videos of his Wadkin PK. If nothing else you will learn about all the options out there. I just know I would not buy a non slider when sliders are so cheap. Dave

I'm with you in the slider camp, I think the reason why many woodworkers shy away from sliders is they don't see the full potential. I wouldn't rip a 1/2" x 6" long dowel on a table saw, not even a SS, but on a slider with "Fritz and Franz" a piece of cake and your hands are nowhere near the blade and there are ways to secure a workpiece to the slider that are impossible on a table saw.

[Alan Hick]

The Saw Stop 3HP PCS is a great saw. I have one and couldn't be happier with it. And, if you decide down the road that you want a slider, SawStop released a new Crosscut Slider attachment that you can retrofit onto the saw. I've seen it in person and can say it's a rugged and beautifully machined accessory, currently selling for 999.00. Go to the SS website and watch their video if you're curious about it.

[Dennis Aspö]

I think a saw needs the following things:
-A riving knife that doesn't protrude above the blade or is encumbered with things like guards mounted on it
-A rip fence that is adjustable to a short length for ripping and cutting small part.

And the following things are my top two nice to haves:
-An overarm guard with dust collection
-A sliding table

Now you can live without a sliding table, see how matthias wandel solved that issue adequately for his saw, but I wouldn't want to.

[Mike Dowell]

I have to throw in the "look at used " statement. Table saws are one of the best deals out there. Used sliders can be within your budget, and really well built saws and a vfd can be had for 1500-2500. Delta 12-14, PM 72. I'm partial to short stroke cast iron saws and 3K buys any of them. Look up Jack's videos of his Wadkin PK. If nothing else you will learn about all the options out there. I just know I would not buy a non slider when sliders are so cheap. Dave

What's a "short stroke" saw?

[Mike Dowell]

Are there any good collections of videos using sliders? I searched all over youtube, and most of what I found were just company promo videos - you know, a 3 minute video with music in a the background while you watch a guy change all the settings on the saw - pointless.

I'd actually like to see a sliding table saw because I can't vision how to use one for anything other than cross cuts. To me, it just appears as a table saw with a built in cross cut sled. Say I had a 1x4 and I wanted to rip a 1/2" off of it. What does that procedure look like?

And this thing just looks like a robot or something! http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-Sliding-Table-Saw/G0623X

[Alan Hick]

Are there any good collections of videos using sliders? I searched all over youtube, and most of what I found were just company promo videos - you know, a 3 minute video with music in a the background while you watch a guy change all the settings on the saw - pointless.

I'd actually like to see a sliding table saw because I can't vision how to use one for anything other than cross cuts. To me, it just appears as a table saw with a built in cross cut sled. Say I had a 1x4 and I wanted to rip a 1/2" off of it. What does that procedure look like?

And this thing just looks like a robot or something! http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-Sliding-Table-Saw/G0623X


I haven't seen any "collections" of slider videos. And the sliders I'm personally familiar with would tend to be well outside of your stated price limit. But, you might consider the Hammer series, and Marius Hornberger just got a new Hammer this summer. He hasn't posted many videos with it yet but if you look him up on you tube and watch "My New Sliding Table Saw (Hammer K3 Basic)" you can se some action with his, and get a feel for space required. For a slider, it's quite compact and doesn't take up near the acreage that many of them do.

[William C Rogers]

Mike, I went down the same path as you. I did eventually buy a SS PCS. I also did not understand enough about sliders yo make the jump. I did contact Grizzly to see if there was someone within 3 hours of me that would be willing to let me see their slider in action. Unfortunately there was not. I would suggest you contact them to see if someone in your area might let you see theirs. You might get lucky to have someone to show you do you can make a decision if this is best suited for your business.

[James Zhu]

Are there any good collections of videos using sliders? I searched all over youtube, and most of what I found were just company promo videos - you know, a 3 minute video with music in a the background while you watch a guy change all the settings on the saw - pointless.

I'd actually like to see a sliding table saw because I can't vision how to use one for anything other than cross cuts. To me, it just appears as a table saw with a built in cross cut sled. Say I had a 1x4 and I wanted to rip a 1/2" off of it. What does that procedure look like?

And this thing just looks like a robot or something! http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-Sliding-Table-Saw/G0623X

There are lots of euro slider videos. Here are some, the longest video is 1 hour 40 minutes. Some videos are in german, but you can get the ideas by just watching it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eV8A3XK3R0I Felder CF741S (office desk)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bS5x0MT_VM Hammer B3 winner Comfort (1)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvR5k99PMiE Hammer B3 winner Comfort (2)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgellk8U85w Hammer C3 31(1) (Rocking chair)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8WcPOd5g7w Hammer C3 31 (2)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8c9-BGJLeM Hammer K3 Basic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMk8RceCCu4 Shaper tooling cabinet built using Felder K700S
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06PzXIqzQXM Felder dado cutter setup and use
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWDwGewwIos MiniMax CU300
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUNdV5BUtXk building bed using Felder CF531
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqzVglze9Nk Fritz and Franz technique

http://www.solowoodworker.com/mm/slider.html (techniques for a slider)

[Robert Engel]

Sounds like you've made up your mind but I'll offer my 2 cents anyway.

I have a good friend who runs a large cabinet shop.
And I have worked with him on a project of mine.
I noticed they have 3 TS's: a PM, a Unisaw and a SS.

He told me the SS is a good saw, but costs them money because the blade stop activates at least 2-3 times a year and never for flesh hitting the blade. $90 every time it happens. Something to do with cutting laminate I think.

Keep this in mind. I will admit I'm of the "please don't protect me from myself" ideology (aka Kent but no quite as radical) and that's why I personally wouldn't buy it to keep me from losing a body part.

Like Kent said, I've got bandsaws and chop saws and RAS's and scrolls saws that can do the same thing.

Sorry, but to me, having a SS is like having a car with one airbag.
if it really does save you money on workmans comp, all I can say is you have to do the math, don't believe the SS line about that. If you've got an employee check all this out before you drop the loot.

Sorry again, but I'm of the school that says I f you have half a brain, don't get in a hurry, learn to read your stock, and don't make cuts you shouldn't make, save the $500.

Safety reviews and employee training is the best way to avoid injuries, not having ONE machine in your shop that will do it for you.


Im out.....

[Mike Henderson]

He told me the SS is a good saw, but costs them money because the blade stop activates at least 2-3 times a year and never for flesh hitting the blade. $90 every time it happens. Something to do with cutting laminate I think.


If the SS prevents someone from cutting off a body part, that $90 2-3 times per year is going to look like cheap insurance. Especially to the person who lost the body part.

And, yes, there are many dangerous tools in a woodworking shop. But just because you can't get flesh sensing on all of them is no reason to reject flesh sensing on the table saw.

Reminds me of the argument that people use to give about cigarette smoking. They would say that drinking causes many deaths and nothing is being done about that - so come back to them when you solve the drinking problem and they'll consider stopping smoking. It's the old "drain the oceans" argument.

Mike

[Ronald Blue]

Here is a slider for you. You will never want again.
http://delaware.craigslist.org/tls/5112584190.html

[John Lankers]

The SS is an excellent table saw and if I couldn't have a slider it would be a SawStop - but a sliding table attachment does not turn a table saw into a Sliding Table Saw, it's merely an attachment 10", 12", 14" away from the sawblade which defeats the purpose. The only way to take full advantage of a sliding table is to have it right against the sawblade. On a true slider you can secure a workpiece the size and shape of a Quarter to the table and make the cut without the use of jigs the same goes for thin rips like for edgebanding or any other rips and the list goes on and you don't need the rip fence for that either which eliminates the risk of a kickback.
About 15 years ago I was looking at the sliding table attachment DeWalt was offering for their 746 hybrid saw (I bought mine in the mid 90's) and I was close to pulling the trigger when I realized this shortcoming and opted for a Felder, it took me a few years to get there but I haven't regretted for 1 second :).

[Mike Dowell]

I'm going to drive to the Delaware Woodcraft and see the SS in person. It's only about an hour from me and I definitely don't want to pay $250 for shipping. I can see both sides of the flesh sensing argument. If I'm being honest, I'm actually a bit frightful when I'm using the table saw. No matter how smoothly the piece is running through, I'm always just waiting for some weird thing to happen and the piece to go flying through the air. I think in a sense, it's good to fear your table saw a little, because you're always careful, but on the other end of that argument, although I've never had any accidents, I'm guessing that when something bad happens on a table saw, it happens in a nano-second. the 36" SS PCS is definitely a sexy machine, but I do have an issue with paying for a feature I may never use. Actually, I watched a YouTube review of that saw, and the guy said that wet wood will also trigger the sensor, and there was one other situation that can trigger it besides flesh. That sounds like what Robert Engel was talking about. If I'm ripping a piece of wood and the sensor trips, I'm going to be more than irritated. However, if I somehow find my hand in contact with the blade, I'll be more than happy if I don't get injured.

Geez, what a complicated decision. In the end, that's why I came here to talk about it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that SS and PM are the two big names. I'm looking around Woodcraft online, and I don't even see a less expensive alternative to the SS anyhow. The SS is $2900 and the PM2000 is $2959. So, that being said, if I decided that I wasn't willing to pay extra for the safety feature of the SS, that doesn't leave me with any options. There's JET and Grizzly, but what about the quality?

[Mike Dowell]

The SS is an excellent table saw and if I couldn't have a slider it would be a SawStop - but a sliding table attachment does not turn a table saw into a Sliding Table Saw, it's merely an attachment 10", 12", 14" away from the sawblade which defeats the purpose. The only way to take full advantage of a sliding table is to have it right against the sawblade. On a true slider you can secure a workpiece the size and shape of a Quarter to the table and make the cut without the use of jigs the same goes for thin rips like for edgebanding or any other rips and the list goes on and you don't need the rip fence for that either which eliminates the risk of a kickback.
About 15 years ago I was looking at the sliding table attachment DeWalt was offering for their 746 hybrid saw (I bought mine in the mid 90's) and I was close to pulling the trigger when I realized this shortcoming and opted for a Felder, it took me a few years to get there but I haven't regretted for 1 second :).

John, I love that little sign behind the saw. I recently saw a bumber sticker which reminded me of that - it read "Criminal control, not gun control".

[John Lankers]

Mike, I'm far from qualified of being a teacher, but I can tell you that having fear regarding powertools is the wrong approach, you want to use them with respect and be prepared if the unexpected happens, the table saw is only one of many tools that can hurt you. The big remaining issue the SawStop can't eliminate completely is kickback - so make sure you try not to stand in front of the blade. This is one advantage of a sliding table saw standing in front of the saw is awkward and it becomes second nature after a while to stand beside the slider at all times.
Regarding your question Powermatic vs. SawStop I believe the SawStop comes out on top in reviews (even though I'm not a fan of their business approach), having said that others are very happy with their Grizzly - now you're back to square 1 :p.

[Mike Dowell]

Mike, I'm far from qualified of being a teacher, but I can tell you that having fear regarding powertools is the wrong approach, you want to use them with respect and be prepared if the unexpected happens, the table saw is only one of many tools that can hurt you. The big remaining issue the SawStop can't eliminate completely is kickback - so make sure you try not to stand in front of the blade. This is one advantage of a sliding table saw standing in front of the saw is awkward and it becomes second nature after a while to stand beside the slider at all times.
Regarding your question Powermatic vs. SawStop I believe the SawStop comes out on top in reviews (even though I'm not a fan of their business approach), having said that others are very happy with their Grizzly - now you're back to square 1 :p.

Yeah, I'm just a little timid when it comes to the table saw. My father in law has an old uni with no riving knife, and he'll just lay wood down on top of the spinning blade - he's fearless(and maybe foolish). But anyhow, I have a grizzly bandsaw, and I find the quality mediocre - at least for that tool. It's decent, but then again, it was only $600. I want my new table saw to be nothing short of amazing. I'd buy that Hammer K3 slider in a heart beat but I'm really stuck on a $3000 budget. I *could* spend more, but if I do, what's the sense of a budget?

[Prashun Patel]

Mike, I have the PCS 3hp Saw Stop. It's a wonderful saw. Safety features aside, I would put it head to head with a Unisaw or PM. I mean, even if it didn't have the technology, it's a great saw. It's accurate, easy to put together and tune. The riving knife and blade guard are well designed and easy to swap out.

About the only reason I could see not to get a Sawstop is if you truly don't care about the sensing technology and you do a lot of dadoing. The dado blade requires a special brake, so you'll be swapping between two blades and two brakes.

I appreciate sticking to a budget. Long term, you may be buying a few brakes (count on a misfire or two by hitting a miter gauge). For many, this is a minor price to pay, but for those indifferent to the technology, this can be an annoyance.

Also, if you cut a lot of wet wood (I prefer to do that on the bandsaw) you may find yourself having to bypass the brake occasionally.

All this is to say, the SS technology is nice, and they've made it about as easy to use as possible, but it's not without ANY extra effort vis a vis a 'regular' saw.

My biggest advice is to pick a saw that is easy to align and has a riving knife that's easy to swap in and out...

[John Lankers]

Yeah, I'm just a little timid when it comes to the table saw. My father in law has an old uni with no riving knife, and he'll just lay wood down on top of the spinning blade - he's fearless(and maybe foolish). But anyhow, I have a grizzly bandsaw, and I find the quality mediocre - at least for that tool. It's decent, but then again, it was only $600. I want my new table saw to be nothing short of amazing. I'd buy that Hammer K3 slider in a heart beat but I'm really stuck on a $3000 budget. I *could* spend more, but if I do, what's the sense of a budget?

I know this can lead you on a dangerous path, but what if you contact your nearest Felder Rep. and just ask if they have something used or are willing to work with you, you never know. Felder in Calgary has my CF531 Pro in their showroom trying to sell it locally bec. of it's weight and footprint. They also have some aggressive sales certain times of the year, you have to be there at the right time. I ordered in May and the savings are significant.

[David Kumm]

If you do a lot of panel work, longer is better in the slider world but if mainly doing hardwood cutting and occasional panel, short is good. The sliding table sits flush with the fixed and you use a traditional rip fence. Ripping on a mid size slider can be a compromise. I like ripping on a 10', not on 6'. Do most of it on the short stroke. There aren't many newer short sliders- don't know why but there are some. I like the old ones that crosscut 36" when you need it but lock down otherwise. There are some short Euro saws too.319273319274

[glenn bradley]

Ok, well through all of this, I think I've decided that I'm going to be looking in the 36" fence category.

First a disclaimer; I own a Saw Stop PCS 3HP with the 52" fence. An unexpected windfall allowed me to make that purchase. Otherwise I would probably still be happily using my 1-3/4" hybrid with a Biesemeyer fence.

The reason for my post is to address the rip capacity question. I use a rip fence for so much more than just ripping but, let's not go there right now. My hybrid had a 30" capacity. I moved the front tube over one set of holes and made that a 40" capacity. 30" was too short most of the time. 40" was plenty most of the time.

When I bought the new saw I had the choice of 36" or 52" (I was not interested in the Premium fence). I had the room and knew from experience that 40" was mostly enough so, for the $100 I went with the 52". I can see that 36" would probably be plenty for most folks (including me) most of the time. If not, the Saw Stop Bies-clone front tube can be shifted over to give you more capacity for zero cost at a near zero effort.

[Mike Hollingsworth]

You'll never find parts for the Delta.

[Dennis Aspö]

The SS is an excellent table saw and if I couldn't have a slider it would be a SawStop - but a sliding table attachment does not turn a table saw into a Sliding Table Saw, it's merely an attachment 10", 12", 14" away from the sawblade which defeats the purpose. The only way to take full advantage of a sliding table is to have it right against the sawblade. On a true slider you can secure a workpiece the size and shape of a Quarter to the table and make the cut without the use of jigs the same goes for thin rips like for edgebanding or any other rips and the list goes on and you don't need the rip fence for that either which eliminates the risk of a kickback.
About 15 years ago I was looking at the sliding table attachment DeWalt was offering for their 746 hybrid saw (I bought mine in the mid 90's) and I was close to pulling the trigger when I realized this shortcoming and opted for a Felder, it took me a few years to get there but I haven't regretted for 1 second :).

I disagree that it defeats the purpose. It's obviously not as good a solution, but it's still a good one. I got my fence real close to the blade, not a zero clearance though, since I don't think that'd work in the long run with blade swapouts and such, so I got half a cm of space. You can't affix things like you mentioned, but as I said, not as good a solution, but still very useful.

[Bill Adamsen]

Experience with numerous saw ... and owner of a Unisaw (30 years old) and slider, both used daily ... for a new tool, I too would vote Sawstop.

[John Lankers]

I disagree that it defeats the purpose. It's obviously not as good a solution, but it's still a good one. I got my fence real close to the blade, not a zero clearance though, since I don't think that'd work in the long run with blade swapouts and such, so I got half a cm of space. You can't affix things like you mentioned, but as I said, not as good a solution, but still very useful.

I admit, poor choice of words.
Thanks for clarifying.

[Pat Barry]

Pfffffth...........

GovCo has dictated that you cannot buy a new car w/o air bags - that is a straw man, Danny, my friend. Would you buy a new house wired with knob and tube wiring?

Buy what you want. Don't stick your hand in the blade, or in the jointer cutters, or in the band saw blade, or under the DP quill, or beneath the CMS blade, or between the mortiser chisel and the target, or on the car door frame as you slam the door closed, or.....or....or...........or in front of the blade on Danny's bandmill...........

Sincerely,
SSS Central Committee

;)


I agree totally with Kent!

[Robert Engel]

Mike,

I won't beat you up anymore than you have re:fear, but I suggest that's just lack of confidence and/or experience. This is why you're amazed at your father. An underpowered machine is more dangerous, IMO. Your "fear" could be related to that.

I submit there is a difference between fear and respect. Maybe that's what you mean. Every time I push the switch on my TS, my brain immediately registers the fact that this machine is very powerful, and I can get hurt. I am not scared of it I'm scared or myself!

The most important piece of advice, and this applies to every machine, is, take the time to examine your stock before you cut it. Sight down those boards. Check for loose knots. Never EVER try to straighten a bowed board against the fence that will keep you out of trouble. If the cut isn't going right, shut the machine off don't try to push it through.

Here are some things I ask myself before every cut:

Is it cupped, bowed, or warped? Are there loose knots, or any knots at all? Is the wood rough? Am I being too lazy to change to the correct blade? Do I have My punch blocks ar the ready? Should I use a feather board for the cut? Do I have the riving knife or splitter in place? Am I using the correct blade (yes!).

Not ready to make the cut yet. After all that, I make sure am I making the cut the safest way? Number one here is using the fence when I should be using a panel sled or xcut sled. Example a piece of plywood is 12x24 and I need 10x24. Very tempting to set the fence for 10" and run it through even with a splitter I've increased the danger of a cut that should be made on a xcut sled.

Risk also comes from letting your guard down and being in a hurry. We let our guard down because we've had a stretch of work that has gone very smoothly or because we are doing repetitive cuts and our mind numbs a bit until that one piece of wood with a knot or something wakes us up. A SS is not going to help you with this.

Also keep in mind the vast majority of TS injuries are from kickbacks and a SS is not going to help you with this, either.

I'm not saying don't buy the SS. I'm saying it's only going to keep you from ONE injury on ONE machine. If that's worth it to you, then get it.

I own an older model 3HP Jet Xacta saw and I will put it up against any saw out there.

Not an exhaustive review of safety, but what comes to my mind based on my experience. I hope this helps.

You'll do well with any of the saws you're looking at. Compared to what you have it will be like going from a VW bug to a Porsche 911.

[Pat Barry]

... Example a piece of plywood is 12x24 and I need 10x24. Very tempting to set the fence for 10" and run it through even with a splitter I've increased the danger of a cut that should be made on a xcut sled.
I disagree with this. Cutting a piece of plywood from 12 inch width to 10 inch width on a piece that is 24 inches is just about the safest cut you will ever make on a table saw. Using a crosscut sled ain't going to improve that at all and likely would make it worse. Now if you said you were going from 12x24 to 12x20, then I would agree with you.

[Mike Henderson]

Not ready to make the cut yet. After all that, I make sure am I making the cut the safest way? Number one here is using the fence when I should be using a panel sled or xcut sled. Example a piece of plywood is 12x24 and I need 10x24. Very tempting to set the fence for 10" and run it through even with a splitter I've increased the danger of a cut that should be made on a xcut sled.
I can't even see how I would do that cut with a crosscut sled. It looks like a rip cut to me, just take 2" off for a length of 24".

Mike

[Mike Cutler]

Not ready to make the cut yet. After all that, I make sure am I making the cut the safest way? Number one here is using the fence when I should be using a panel sled or xcut sled. Example a piece of plywood is 12x24 and I need 10x24. Very tempting to set the fence for 10" and run it through even with a splitter I've increased the danger of a cut that should be made on a xcut
.

Robert

Is this expressed correctly?
If I were to dimension a 12"x 24" piece of material to 10"x 24", the fence would be my first choice.
Maybe I'm just not understanding something.:confused:

[Mike Dowell]

Mike,

I won't beat you up anymore than you have re:fear, but I suggest that's just lack of confidence and/or experience. This is why you're amazed at your father. An underpowered machine is more dangerous, IMO. Your "fear" could be related to that.

I submit there is a difference between fear and respect. Maybe that's what you mean. Every time I push the switch on my TS, my brain immediately registers the fact that this machine is very powerful, and I can get hurt. I am not scared of it I'm scared or myself!

The most important piece of advice, and this applies to every machine, is, take the time to examine your stock before you cut it. Sight down those boards. Check for loose knots. Never EVER try to straighten a bowed board against the fence that will keep you out of trouble. If the cut isn't going right, shut the machine off don't try to push it through.



Yeah, I need to work on my confidence. I completely agree. Also, I'm not too proud to admit that I lack experience. My father-in-law has been using a table saw longer than I have been alive(36yrs).

[Duncan Foster]

I'm selling my 20 year old unisaw and going with a saw stop. Two reasons. Incredibly bad dust collection no matter how many mods I've made and safety. I'll stay away from all the opinions on govt, operator error etc and just say I'd like the safest tool (saw, router etc) that I can. Make no mistake unisaw is a great saw but if I can upgrade ( no different from any other product that's evolved over 25 years ) I would.

[Dwain Alverson]

I would like to offer one thought, I understand 10" saw are the standard. I have an older 12" and appreciate the extra capacity, recently I changed the motor from a 3hp to a 5 and found it a great help when cutting larger than 2" lumber. I've tried the thin kerf blades over the years and was never pleased with the results. For me the answer seems to be fstool full kerf blades and a 5hp motor. The down side of this combo is it is not portable.

[Roger Feeley]

I'm firmly in the Sawstop camp but I fully agree that the best safety device in your shop is between your ears. Always visualize your cut before you make it and always thing about what you want to happen when you get a bind or kickback. Always be mindful of your body position and where your hands would go if your feet slipped. Always position your body so your feet won't slip. When bad things happen (and they will) be of the mindset to get out of the way and don't try to save the workpiece. Never use any tool when you are tired or in a hurry.

I taught shop and worked in wood for 30 years before I got a Sawstop and I don't regret the purchase. That said, I had all my fingers and eyes before I got it.

[Mike Dowell]

These are great tips Roger. I bought my saw, and I've used it many times now. It is absolutely amazing. It's a..... Powermatic PM2000. I know I'll catch hell for it, but once I visualized the sawstop falsely triggering the brake, I just couldn't look past that. I must say that the PM2000 is a remarkable saw. To be fair, I coming from a Dewalt $300 jobsite saw, but still. I'll take pictures of the switch I mounted next to the power switch. It turns on the dust collector and is might convenient. I must say, my harbor freight dust collector is a really lousy machine. I think this saw needs about 10x the suction this unit provides.