Basement Framing Questions

[Keith Weber]

Since moving back into my house after 2 years of living out of the country, I've vowed to finish the basement before I set my tools back up and have everything in the way. So far, I've laid an epoxy floor paint and attached a bottom plate of pressure treated 2x4s to the concrete floor. I'm ready to build the walls and raise them into position, but I have a couple of questions and 3 hours of searching the net didn't help me any. The walls will be made of 2x4s on 16" spacing.

First question - How do you transition from one 8-foot wall section to the next on a 28 foot wall? Do you have a stud at the end of each 8-foot wall section, so that you have a doubled stud every 8 feet (seems like a waste of expensive 2x4s)? Or do you put the end stud 1/2 way onto each plate and toenail it into place (seems like a goofy way to do it)? Or does your last stud on your first wall end 14 1/2 inches from the end of the plate and then you butt a 2nd 8-foot wall section to that with a stud at the beginning?

Second Question (technically the 5th) - How do you stud the corner (concrete behind both walls) so that you can get a conduit elbow in the corner? Preferably so that you can access the removable plate on the elbow.

Thanks to all that can help.

Keith

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Keith....I'm sure others here are more qualified to answer your questions but I did work for a contractor and help build a home and using several books that I have I've done some major remodeling and did, in fact, finish a basement to code as you are doing.


At the end of each wall section I always put a stud and then nail through the stud of one section into the end stud of the other section to attach the two sections together for strength. You really end up only using one additional stud that way.

The corners get kind of tricky....you want to leave enough stud exposed on each wall so that you have enough stud to attach your finished wall material to it...ie wallboard or concrete backer if a shower is going in a corner. Typically I end the first wall with a stud...then cut some 2x4 blocks to act as spacers and nail them to the inside edge of the end stud in the corner. Then I nail another stud to that wall against the spacer blocks. So...that corner has effectively 4 1/2" of "studding". Then start the next wall with a stud up against the previously mentioned 4 1/2" material. That will give you 1 1/2" of stud on one side of the corner and 1" of material on the other corner to which you can attach your sheet goods or wall finish material. I hope this makes sense..

I'd notch the corners for the conduit and put metal protective plates over the notches.

[Tim Morton]

Let me start by saying i am NOT a builder, but i did frame and drywall my basement this past winter.

1. No you do not need to use double 2x4's every 8 feet, just make sure your measurments are accurate so the 8' drywall lays over the middle of each end stud. And for your headers and footer i used 12' 2x4's to avoid any splices where the drywall lays.

One piece of advice...cut your wall framing 1/2" shorter than the ceiling height in your basement. This will aloow for expansion of the wall and will not allow th ewall to push up on your first floor joists and buckle the floor DAMHIKT:mad:

[Per Swenson]

Ok, hate me when I am done.
Couple of things, Basement walls are framed
cheaper and faster by using metal studs.
They are about $1.50 each.
Conduit is run outside of walls.
Use pink foam insulation, with a 4 or 6 mil plastic
vapor barrier on the interior wall side of the stud.
If you must use wood, do as Tim says and use
a longer 2x4 on top. Use a 3 -2x4 corner.
This will give you insulation in the cavity
on the out side of the corner.
Again, inside the wall regular romex and nailing plates.
If you really want shielded wire there is always BX.
If you can see your way to metal studs you will
be quite pleased, Its faster cleaner and easier and the holes are
already drilled for you mechanicals.

Per.

[JayStPeter]

I chose wood framing over metal for my basement shop for two reasons. The first is ease of hanging cabinets and wood storage racks. The second is soundproofing. I'm still waffling between wood and metal for the Rec Room in the other half of the basement (to be done this winter).
I used the goofy toenail method between my 8' sections. It's what the framing crews here do, so I just copied.

Jay

[Jim Becker]

I'm with Per...metal studs. That's what I used when I did the basement in my prevous residence and it was FAST and easy to put up true walls. Often cheaper, too. You're already set to go with the PT plates down so you have nailers for your trim. Further, any soffet work you need to do is almost pleasurable with metal...you can pre-assemble fairly large units and easily install them yourself, holding it up with one hand and screwing with the other.

[Dev Emch]

Per...

Quick Question. How do you attach metal studs to the concrete walls? Do you allow the pink foam to run into the central area of the metal stud as well? I would think that if you do that, you have virtually eliminated any cold spots. Also, wouldnt it be a good thing to use metal studs here in that the metal can butt up against an exterior concrete wall and not have any issues with decay, etc?

[Jim Dunn]

When you set the walls be sure to caulk around the perimeter of the wall floor plate. This prevents water from creaping up under the walls in the event of a sewer back up. There really isn't any way of drying under the floor plate. And, you'll thank me later by avoiding the smell problems.

[Jim Becker]

How do you attach metal studs to the concrete walls? Do you allow the pink foam to run into the central area of the metal stud as well? I would think that if you do that, you have virtually eliminated any cold spots. Also, wouldnt it be a good thing to use metal studs here in that the metal can butt up against an exterior concrete wall and not have any issues with decay, etc?

Your basement walls should not be touching the concrete walls regardless of what they are made of. Firstly, your concrete many not be plumb...and your walls need to be. Secondly, it means moisture transfer as well as heat/cold transfer. The offset from the concrete can be minimal, but should be there.

Insulation of metal studs is similar to wood except you buy material that is properly sized for it. (needs to be a full 16" or 24" wide since the metal studs are "hollow")

[Per Swenson]

Dev,

The wall is attached only to the ceiling and the floor.

Not to the block or poured wall. Most older poured foundations

aren't exactly plumb either. Metal studs give a very consistent wall.

Pink sytrofoam insulation fitted between the studs and just spot glued

will last until the second coming. Won't absorb moisture and wont fall.

For hanging cabinets, it is no problem to block the cavitys with wood 2x4

at the required height. The same way we do for regular wood framed

kitchens and baths. If you glued your plate down with PL Poly adhesive (Hint)

Before you

shot or screwed it to the floor

There is no need to caulk it.

I hope this helps.

Per

[lloyd morris]

Keith,

For what it is worth I built out and finished our 1500 sq foot basement two years ago and wish I had used metal studs and foam insulation as Per and Jim suggested. It would have been faster, less expensive and given as good or better end results.

Between having to offset the studs from the wall a consistent distance, installing plastic sheeting against the masonry wall as a vapor barrier and fooling around with basement walls which may not be straight and plumb to begin with metal studs and foam win hands down for me.

Hope this helps,

Lloyd

[Charles Hans]

I also agree with the matal studs and foam insulation. The walls will be straight and true. I finished our basement including my shop seven years ago with metal studs and I am very happy with the results. As Per said the studs are punched for the wiring and or plumbng you will run.

[JayStPeter]

Dev,

For hanging cabinets, it is no problem to block the cavitys with wood 2x4 at the required height. The same way we do for regular wood framed ...


You're assuming I know up front where cabinets will be. Two years later, I still don't know exactly where I'll hang shop cabinets or move them to.

I was leaning toward metal studs for the living space in the other half. This thread is helping to confirm that.

Per, can I get a little more detail on how you do the styrofoam insulation. What thickness? Do you build it into the walls as you go? Running wires, do you cut them into the foam?

Thanks,

Jay

[Per Swenson]

Ok its late,
let me see if I can write coherently.
Jay, stud your walls, install your electric and plumbing.
Dow blue foam board is available (or pink?) in 3/4, 1",2", 3" and 4"
thick by 24 x96 inch sheets. You are going to need to buy this through a lumber yard.
I do not think the big boxs carry it.
To be safe in a shop basement run cut 2x4 on the flat in between every metal stud
all the way around the shop 1 foot below the ceiling and 36 inch's off the floor. You will find that at these heights you can screw any cabinet anywhere,
Fill in the cavitys with foam. then cover the whole wall with 6 mill plastic.
Sheetrock then take a nap. Last but not least prime your basement walls
with the mildew killing bathroom paint. That's available at the orange box.
I hope this helps.
Oh yeah, 1 inch of foam has a r-value of 5
Per

[Keith Weber]

Thanks everyone for the replies! I think I have it pretty much figured out now. I liked Tim's idea of cutting the studs a bit short. It's already saved a bunch of hassles in the 16 feet of wall that I've got up so far. As much as I'd like to try the metal 2x4s, this project is committed to wood at this time. I did buy the 2x4s about 3 years ago for about 60% of what they're charging today. I also wanted to be able to nail stuff into the studs later without having to get creative with fasteners. Going on a trip for about 4-5 days. I'm actually looking forward to getting back so I can keep working on those walls!

Keith

[Peter Mc Mahon]

Hi Keith. I frammed houses for 6 years and a lot of basements. Since you are going with wood, I am guessing that your 8 foot wall and 28 foot wall is a 36' long wall? When you are building a wall longer than your top and bottom plates make each section 8" longer or shorter than a stud location. When you look at it the studs will be 8" to either side of the joint. Nail a 14 1/2" block over each joint. When you are about to start the framming take a 2x4 and nail 2 scraps on the end of it. [ If your 2x4 is 8' long and you add the 2 scraps it will be 8'3"] Now take this and stand it up where your wall will be and mark the top where it extends past the floor joist. Do this all the way down the length of a wall. When you are done cut off the lowest mark plus 1/4". This is your stud length. When you lay out your room check your foundation walls for level and if they are close measure 4 1/2" out from the bottom at each end and snap a chalk line between these 2 points. Level up from this line at each end and mark the ceiling then snap a line. Around here we needed tar paper on the backs of basement walls, we would staple it on when the wall was on the floor and then stand the wall up. Hope this helps you. Peter

[Dev Emch]

Thanks Jim and Per.....

So it sounds like the metal framing is the way to go. Just avoid dealing with the concrete wall altogether.

So how about wall finishing? If I am using a standard plaster wall system, what would be the best way to go? Is it possible to just screw on the metal lath to the metal studs and just plaster over it all? I could use the 3 inch foam and then place it back into the cavity giving me about 1/2 inch for the plaster keys to ouzzz out in the back of the lath giving me a good bond.

[Jim Becker]

Plaster? LOL! 'Can't help you there, Dev. I know nothing about it! (Other than the fact that the metal lathe in the walls around me kill my wireless (sell) phone signal...kinda a Faraday Shield...) The downside of having my office in a 250 year old stone structure...

[Chris Padilla]

Intresting thread. So metal studs still require wood top/bottom plates?

[Jim Becker]

Intresting thread. So metal studs still require wood top/bottom plates?

No. Not "required". But a PT bottom plate under the lower metal channel in a basement or on other concrete floor surface situation makes for easier fastening of baseboards. Nothing needed at the top whatsoever. Door openings are also usually wrapped with wood to make mounting of pre- and not-pre-hung doors easier. Otherwise...no wood necessary. The net effect is very, very fast building and generally, a lower cost.

[Per Swenson]

This should help.
As Jim says its fast.
There are anecdotes galore
concerning the shocked expression on customers
faces. Sadly the rest of the job usually progresses
at the usual rate.

http://www.steelframingalliance.com/mc/page.do?sitePageId=1082

Per

[Rich Konopka]

I have found this to be an interesting thread. Where does the faster come in when framing with metal?? Punched holes? aAso, will the metal studs transfer sound more that woodden studs?

Thanks

[Jim Becker]

Rich, faster comes from cutting (snips) as well as the ability to assemble a wall "really quick" by screwing the two end studs with a screw gun, making the assembly level and plumb, snapping in the remaining studs in the run (there are guides in the channels), hitting them with a quick crimp (a special tool) and then quickly screwing them if you choose. You can do a whole wall in a matter of minutes.

[Per Swenson]

Rich,

If you have never worked with them it is hard
(at least for me) to explain, But I will try.
First off metal studs don't weigh a thing compared
to a doug fir 2x4s. Once your layout is complete
the top and bottom track installed (plate & shoe)
with two guys one inserting the stud one crimping,
it goes as fast as you do. After the crimper you go back and Zip
screw them later. You only have to be close when you cut a metal stud
as both plate and shoe are 1 1/2 deep. You can cut them with
tin snips in less time then it takes to run to the saw. If you are working
commercial you have a metal chop saw and can cut them all in a bundle.
Lets see, magnetic level also frees up the hands.
And like Jim said you can build your soffit and fascias on the floor
and pick them up with one hand. And the most important
part, because you are not killing yourself and the process goes so easy
mentally you become much more productive.
The Zen of metal studs. Oh, and you go home clean.


Per

[Richard Wolf]

Per and Jim have said alot of good thinks about working with steel studs. The only down side which really isn't, is that preplaning becomes more important. Any thing that you want to hang or nail on the wall, trim, moldings, cabinets, door and window frames should be backed with wood material. It could be 3/4" ply, mounted in the area where cabinets are to be hung, or sill plates to mount base. The preplaning makes hanging your finished material alot easier.

Dev, are they still doing plaster jobs out west? The only thing around here that resemblies plaster would be blue board and a skim coat of plaster or more likely joint compound.

Richard

[Chris Padilla]

Also, will the metal studs transfer sound more that wooden studs?

Thanks

Rich, I'd say they transfer sound equally but perhaps different frequencies. One person will hear things differently than the other person.

Now, I have zero experience with metal stud sound transfer so I'm only guessing here but as I understand sound transfer, I'm not sure wood vs. metal will make much difference at the end of the day. You must take steps to prevent the sound from ever getting into the studs. Once the studs vibrate from sound waves, they transfer it all over the place.

[Rich Konopka]

Well this thread has certainly grabbed my intention. I have framed some of my basement and will be doing an exercise room opposite the shop this fall to move the equipment out of the spare room upstairs. I'm aghast at the costs for materials. The cheaper and faster is certainly appealing but the straighter walls is really key because of the inconsistent poured concrete walls.

I was at HD this weekend pricing materials and the costs of studs and drywall are way high. Prices have come down from the highs. I ended up shelling out 13.88 :eek:for a sheet of white pegboard for the my shed.

I think I ill research this further and may go forward with metal. I will not be hanging cabinets in this room so the metal studs is an option that I really did not consider prior to this thread. Thanks

[Rich Konopka]

Rich, I'd say they transfer sound equally but perhaps different frequencies. One person will hear things differently than the other person.

Now, I have zero experience with metal stud sound transfer so I'm only guessing here but as I understand sound transfer, I'm not sure wood vs. metal will make much difference at the end of the day. You must take steps to prevent the sound from ever getting into the studs. Once the studs vibrate from sound waves, they transfer it all over the place.

Chris,

The furnace will be directly behind the wall and my concerns will be that the metal will transfer the sound. I am planning on 2 layers of 1/2" sheetrock to cut down on the noise.

[Richard Wolf]

Just one more thing to interject here. The steel framing that we are talking about is for non support/ non load bearing walls. If someone needs to frame with steel and be supportive, thats a whole new ballgame.

Richard

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Hi all, This is interesting. I've done a fair amount of wall framing with 2x4's. but never with metal studs. Can anybody describe how you hang drywall on metal studs? I'm thinking you have to predrill first then screw? Any special screws? Thanks.

[Jim Becker]

Alan, you use fine drywall screws and a screw gun...no pre-drilling. They shoot right in as the tips are designed to be self-drilling. Just the sound is different than when working with wood! Buuuuuuuurappp! Keep in mind that it's best to use a real screw-gun when working with drywall...the mechanism is designed to cam-out when the screw is set at the proper depth and they also hold the fastener securely.

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Thanks Jim, I was just reading that a thermal problem exists with metal studs. A google article I read said that an R30 wall is actually a R12 with metal studs because of the conductivity of the metal. There are ways around this using insulation boards on the cold side I think. Other than that metal studs sounds like a good alternative.

[Jim Becker]

Alan, I doubt the thermal transfer is going to be a major issue in a basement situation...these are not outside walls and the temp difference is going to be considerably less. My basement in the previous residence stayed toasty in the winter and cool in the summer with only R13...

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Makes sense Jim. I'm guessing they're talking about exterior walls subjected to greater temperature swings.

[Jim Becker]

Makes sense Jim. I'm guessing they're talking about exterior walls subjected to greater temperature swings.

Yup. Even wood studs have a certain amount of thermal transfer and metal has a lot more. This is one of the strikes against aluminum (or steel) windows! It's also why I'm hoping to explore using SIPs when we build the addition as an alternative to traditional framing-- but with studs and spray-in closed cell foam insulation as the second choice. (The latter is more likely in this area...)