Split-top Benchcrafted design- why not put breadboards on all ends?

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I understand the wagon vise must have a breadboard end to support it, but why not do the same on all ends? Is it just a time and money thing? Happy for you to talk me out of it, but I am thinking ash top with mahogany breadboards and exposed dovetails. Mahogany is easy for me to get and would set off the exposed joinery nicely. I do worry a bit about movement of the two woods.

I am a very balanced person. I like things to be uniform. Having only one breadboard end would interfere with my OCD. :-)

Also I intend to change the joinery to something more substantial than the captive nut and bolt method. I want to dovetail the stretchers and through-mortise the legs to the top. Not sure the joint name but the one that is dovetailed and wedged. I love the look and sturdiness. Also using mahogany for the legs and I think it would look nice with the contrast.

Yes, it is a WORKbench, but all these things are in the name of craftsmanship, and just things that for me make the build all the more exciting.

[Jim Koepke]

One advantage of the breadboard end is it can be made to hang below the bench to have an apron. An end apron on a bench is a convenient place to clamp a piece of scrap for an end stop.

jtk

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Hmmm. I like that. I believe I might just do that.

[Tom Vanzant]

Malcolm,
that sounds like the joint Bob Lang used on one of his benches. He referred to it as a half dovetail with wedge, although there may/may not be another name.
Are you on St. Thomas or St. Croix? There is a saw mill in the rain forest area in the NW part of St. Croix. Plenty of air-dried woods of many types there. I brought home some small planks of mahogany and a billet of almond.
Looking forward to your bench build.
Tom

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I am on St.Thomas and the wood I get comes from that mill. Beautiful stuff. Never considered almond. I must look into that.

Mi believe we speak of the same type of joint. Now I have a name for it.

[ian maybury]

Hi Malcolm, just thinking loosely in response to your question - no particular experience of what you have in mind.

I guess the issue with an end cap/breadboard type end is the usual conundrum for perfectionists - it can be located at one point on it's length, but needs to be free otherwise to float because of the long/cross grain movement difference. Which means that even if everything lines up perfectly when it's built, there's going to be times when it doesn't - and the longer the cap the greater the difference.

The other angle is that strictly speaking they wouldn't be functional except for the one mounting the wagon vise - on the basis that the top is thick enough that they seem unlikely to be needed to prevent warping. If it did happen it'd suggest bigger problems.

One advantage of the split top Benchcrafted Roubo i guess is that it'd open the way to using short caps if you wanted to - four in total on the ends of the two halves of the top. They could be fixed at the outside/visible ends, which would mean any difference caused by movement would show up on each side of the centre gap, and be pretty minimal.

Strictly just brainstorming, and it mightn't be the prettiest, but i guess that an end cap could be extended down quite a bit, and/or be bored for holdfasts or a Moxon style vise to enable vertical workholding if that appealed too.

It might not be so pretty/would eliminate the opportunity for a nice big feature dovetail to the side at each corner, and it wouldn't accommodate the wagon vise i think you have in mind - but another route might be just to place some good hefty threaded inserts in the ends of the top - and use a slotted and floating end cap that could be moved up or down to suit the work and removed when not wanted.

Through tenons for the legs in the top present a similar scenario - movement may mean they are not always flush. Structurally/functionally speaking when the top is split it's probably the upper cross stretcher between the legs (on which the halves rest) that does a fair amount of the work so far as resisting racking in both directions is concerned. The leg to top joint probably isn't in this situation required to do anything like as much as in the traditional one piece top/no upper stretchers/through tenoned legs design.

[Tom Vanzant]

Malcolm, beware the almond. It's braided and interlocked grain is like a braided hemp rope...forget planing, and I don't care how close you set your breaker. I once ripped a 1-1/2" wide, 4" long piece to 3/8" thickness, and it warped overnight to more than 1/8" diagonally.

[ken hatch]

Malcolm,

As a advocate of building a workbench workbench I preach "build it fast, build it strong, build it heavy, and build it cheap and quick." Then use it to make something.YAnything that works against those points begins to change your workbench into furniture. Breadboard end caps do not add anything and may make it harder to keep the bench flat and true, same story with through mortises for the legs.

Of course as with all things wood....YMMV

ken

[Steve Bates]

I was looking at this last night, is this what you're thinking?

Dovetailed and Wedged Tenon (Fig. 157).—When two pieces such as the cross rail and leg of a carpenter's bench are required to be held together by a mortise and tenon, and to be readily taken apart, the tenon is dovetailed on one side and the mortise is made of sufficient width to permit the widest part of the dovetailed tenon to pass into it. When the tenon is in its position a hardwood wedge is driven in above the tenon, as shown.

http://www.basiccarpentrytechniques.com/Woodwork%20Joints/images/f157.jpg

Fig. 157.—Dovetailed and Wedged Tenon.


http://www.basiccarpentrytechniques.com/Woodwork%20Joints/images/f158.jpg

Fig. 158.—Method of Fox-wedging.
Fox Wedged Tenon (Fig. 158).—This is the method of securing a stub tenon by small wedges. The mortise is slightly dovetailed and two saw cuts are made in the tenon about 3⁄16 in. from each side. Into each saw kerf a wedge is inserted and the joint glued up. The cramping operation forces the wedges into the saw cuts, thus causing the end of the tenon to spread and tightly grip the mortise.

[Christopher Charles]

Hello Malcolm,

I built the split top roubo with a full length breadboard on the end vise end because I was pretty sure that I would turn it into a split-not roubo by gluing up the entire top. I used bolts with a sliding slot on the back half to allow expansion. I have not yet glued the top together, but I also have not found reason to pull out the gap filler. The left end is open. I too went a bit OCD on the build.

More details (documenting OCD in both the design and build stages) in this build thread from a couple years ago:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?169730-Is-the-Klausz-Frid-Scand-Bench-Dead

319063319064


Overall, great bench. Thus far, I'm only considering adding a retro-cris-cross b/c the bc roller set up goes out of alignment pretty quick (i.e., I can't strongly endorse) and if I had it to do over again, I'd consider a LN trad tail vise instead of the BC wagon, primarily because I do a good bit of small work.

Good luck and I'll look forward to seeing what you come up with!

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Ian, all reasons I asked. Wood movement is my concern.

Tom, I figured that might be the case. It is a stringy wood. I have seen the branches after storms.

Ken, I mostly agree; all my past benches have been cheap and fast, but I actually kind of want a furniture grade bench. The build for me is part of the fun. I have some really nice artisan made tools and when I use them I think of the work they put into them. A finely made bench would inspire me each time I used it. That said, like my classic cars that I drove daily, she will be used for the purpose she was built.

Steve, that tenon but with an additional dovetailed wedged tenon.

Christopher, love your bench and I remember that build. I believe your breadboard is what I want to do. I am getting the crisscross classic and kind of like the retro because it seems like it would be less likely to wear the holes where the pins go through. You have done with walnut (? I assume) exactly what I want to do with mahogany; dark base, light top, dark breadboards with contrasting dovetails.

I really like this wagon vise, but the exchange rate for GBP's kills me right now. http://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=65_71&products_id=180&zenid=1fh8356paksrjihrsddstb7dq2

[Christopher Charles]

Thanks Malcolm. The dark wood is from a large elm slab that came out of our local city park. That is a flash wagon vise but would sting at the current exchange rate. I will say that I do really like the hand wheel on the BC, quick and don't have to fiddle with a knob. Good tough choices to have to make. :)

Cheers
Chris

[Mark Stutz]

Perfect timing for this thread, Malcolm. I've been exploring sourcing some Beech for a new bench. And with all due respect Ken, mine will also be more furniture grade, since the build is not just the means to an end, but an end in itself.

Chris, you seem to have second thoughts about the wagon vise. What do you do that the traditional tail vise would perform better for you? You also note that you've never removed the filler strip between the split halves. If you did it over would you do just a solid top, or does that make construction that much easier (which makes a lot of sense to me)?

Malcolm, I agree with you on the breadboard. My sense of aesthetics already had me planning on a matching end piece for the opposite end!

[Mike Brady]

I use a split top bench and I would dislike having a closed well instead o a tray that can be swept easily with a flick of a brush.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

After giving it some thought, I am going to do a solid top and put the Lie-Nielsen 18" (which is 28" jaw size) chain-drive vise at the end of the bench instead of the wagon vise. Why? Well, the wagon vise gives you one sliding dog, and a gap where you can clamp small pieces. The LN vise gives you a full vise for clamping stock up to 18" (or 24 if you built a bigger bench) between the screws, and multiple rows of bench dogs that can line up to from two to four bench dog holes in your vise. This is perfect for making panels. The cost is $10 cheaper than the lower-end Benchcrafted tail vise, so why not get the most bang for your buck? *DISCLAIMER: These are of course my opinion, and everyone has their preferences. I just see lots more advantages to a full vise across the tail and two or more rows of dog holes lining up to it. Also the installation appears to me to be quite simple.

As for the middle "thingie" in the split-top, I originally liked the idea because it makes a planing stop and a place to put tools. Giving it more thought, however, do I need a planing stop when I have multiple rows of bench dogs? Do I want a slot in the center of the bench to put tools that will have to be moved out of the way when I want to switch to a larger workpiece? There are good and bad to all of these considerations. I think I would rather just have one big top.

In regards to tool trays and slots for sweeping dust, I find that tool trays become catch-alls and things get more in the way in those. I don't want to sweep shavings in the middle of the bench. I'd rather sweep them off the edge, although I did give consideration to making a tray under the top to catch shavings. My bench will have storage below in the form of open shelves that will (mostly) not interfere with the sliding deadman. I say mostly because I may have to move some tools on the rare occasion that a holdfast protrudes through to where the shelf is, but these will be loosely stored planes, so moving one will just mean sliding it over. I will have to have a gap in the row of holes on the deadman where the shelf is. No big deal. I am giving thought to having the shelf align with the back of the legs rather than the front so there is some gap there for holdfasts to protrude through the deadman. I need to do some figuring on all that.

So here's what I have come up with: Basically the Benchcrafted Roubo with a solid (not split) top with at least two rows of dogs, but probably another row down the middle. Top will be 28" wide, matching the LN 28" jaw size for the 18" OC chain vise. There will be a Benchcrafted Classic leg vise with the CrissCross guide (which I love) on one side, and on the "back" side of the bench it will have the patternmaker's vise, which will face the side of my workshop more dedicated to "anything and everything", and the leg vise will face the side of my shop more dedicated to handwork. The pattern vise is going to be mostly used for carving and for holding odd stuff like car parts or who knows what. Kind of a general-purpose vise.

Given the three different brands and styles of vises, I have hereby dubbed this the "Frankenbench." I have to order the Ash, and that means trucking to Miami, and ocean frieght to me, and then letting it come up to moisture (yes, UP to moisture where I live!) so we are looking at a few months before I actually start making this thing.

I'm liking this guy's build which shows what I mean about the dog holes. Some planning would be in order and the vise needs to be thick enough that the dogs don't interfere with the chain: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?120032-New-Woodworking-Bench-(Parts-I-amp-II-of-II)

[ian maybury]

Hi Malcolm. I think the one piece top has some big structural advantages if nothing else - but also the potential for more wood movement.

My own Roubo is inching along, and the big stack of beech is two+ years later still clogging up my (smallish) shop. Still finalising the drawing, but have finished off the parts for a DIY wagon vise, bought all the stuff for a DIY version of the BC leg vise - but using the BC criss-cross which i also like. The OEM BC stuff is very nice, but using it everywhere would just have put the budget into the stratosphere.

I'd strongly suggest drawing up your intended final bench complete with all details, accurately, and to a good sized scale. I did this, and found that there's scope for unforeseen issues where e.g. vise screws and leg tenons can interfere with dog and/or upper cross stretcher positions. (if you decide to use them) Twin screw vises are particularly awkward (i looked at using a Veritas) compared to a leg vise which has a much lower placed screw - because the screws go in so far, and because they can end up placed so high. They can be problematical for example with a >4in thick top for example. Could be even that it could drive a change in final spec or layout if anything really awkward comes up.

There's some useful stuff here on the website of Dieter Schmid Tools who distribute BC in Germany. Especially the first link which further down has links to various CAD plans, a video tour of the bench, and then of the build of the criss-cross leg vise and then of the wagon vise. The second link is just a sales page for the various parts:

http://www.fine-tools.com/roubo-hobelbank.html

http://www.fine-tools.com/benchcrafted.html

[Christopher Charles]

Mark,

The regret is not strong, but would likely use a trad tail vise for holding pieces upright for planing end grain etc. That said, the leg vise has worked just fine for those types of operations and the wagon vise is certainly more bomb-proof. Also, the brilliance of the split top is in the construction--I was able to build the entire top out of hard maple (=heavy!) without any help, though did have a friend on hand a couple of times. The final step of gluing the two sections together or not is the last decision. I will likely glue mine up at some point but the gap filler functionally fills the role for now and should i need to move in the meantime, the bench breaks down into manageable pieces.

Malcolm,

Sounds like a good plan. I forgot that one of the reasons I went with a full width breadboard was to squeak out a couple more inches of length with the lumber I had.

A twin screw should be sweet and I'll mention in response to Mark's question that I went with the wagon vise b/c I have a second bench that i'll eventually modify to a twin screw using the existing vises for dovetailing (and i'll have three vises; one each dedicated to faces, edges and ends). Thus, your plan for the twin screw sounds good because you'll gain a great spot for dovetailing. The only downside might be that the very end of the boards will overhang for face jointing-probalby not a worry with the LN. Win or win choice with the hardware you're considering. 28" will be a good width.

I've also thought about a pattern maker's vise for the back side...will be sweet when I hit the lottery :)

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I've also thought about a pattern maker's vise for the back side...will be sweet when I hit the lottery :)


No longer must you win the lottery. A lucky day at Bingo can get you one from Highland Woodworking.

http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/patternmakerswoodworkingvise.aspx

[Dennis Cloutier]

I have the Veritas twin screw in the tail vise position on my old work bench. What I don't like about it is that when I am using the dogs to clamp a board face down on the bench the end of the board is unsupported and could sag. Also, the vise is fairly slow. In my case both of these problems are worse because my dog holes are 6" apart. 3" would probably work better.

I've got the wood and the hardware for my own Benchcrafted bench build, but I have to wait for my shop reno to be finished. I've decided to go with Benchcrafted's wagon vise in the tail vise position. Someday I'm going to reuse the Veritas twin screw as a face vise on a small joinery/carving bench.

[Brian Holcombe]

I have a traditional LN tail vise, it's one of my favorite parts of my bench.

[ian maybury]

If i understand you correctly Denis your board ends up unsupported because the moving jaw sags. I had thought the LN twin screw had an extra bushing or something to control this? It's definitely an issue with the Veritas twin screw, people install various bearing pads under the bench top for the screws to press up against, but it's still got to be marginal at full extension. (which might/might not be are?)

One of the advantages of a wagon vise as i figure it is that your board is always clamped on a dead flat surface - presuming that is your bench top is flat. There's other stuff it doesn't do, but it does that job really well...

[Dennis Cloutier]

Oops, I have the Lee Valley twin screw, not LN. It definitely sags. I'm going to try and edit my original post.

[Archie England]

I have a traditional tail vise (and am rather clueless about the wagon tail vise...) and can not image doing without it. For instance, I load my saw vices into the slot, my coping saw post (that allows me to raise fine work to eye level), and it serves as fantastic breaker (tearing apart those mistakes or redos) as well as compression torque vise for pressing together parts. Since I bought a low-end tail vise, I do get sag and have rebuild the housing once already. With that said, I'm only on my third bench build effort: it has lasted nearly 7 years now. Like you, I'm conflicted on how to fit all these dang devises into a single monster bench. Choices!

[Christopher Charles]

Too bad I don't play bingo :) In case I do, is that the version you have//are planning to use Malcolm?

To be a bit more clear, the BC wagon vise does allow quite a few items to be clamped similar to a trad tail vise, just of limited dimensions.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Too bad I don't play bingo :) In case I do, is that the version you have//are planning to use Malcolm?

To be a bit more clear, the BC wagon vise does allow quite a few items to be clamped similar to a trad tail vise, just of limited dimensions.

Haha. Neither do I. Perhaps I should start. Yes, that is the vise that started all this madness. It was supposed to be to get me by until I could build my dream bench. I had no idea how big that thing was. It is so big it would literally tip my little bench over if I fully extended it. Sadly, when I say "literally" I do mean it would literally tip it over. It weighs in at 60 pounds. My bench is not really what you would call "heavily built."

The vise is very well made except the wood handle is nothing to brag about. Other than that they nailed it.

[Christopher Charles]

Good to hear that you are enjoying the vise on bingo nights. And remember, sandbags are a cheap alternative to a new bench.

Seriously, it is good to hear a decent pattern makers vise is available again. Looking forward to the build.