European Sliding Saws part 1 of ???

[Paul B. Cresti]

Hey Guys & Gals,
Since I have proclaimed myself in another recent thread the "unofficial" spokesman for myself :confused: I figured I would continue with my crusade/quest to convert as many/convince ww'rs that the European Sliding Panel Saw (ESPS) truly is the evolved archiac American Style cabinet saw. IMHO it supercedes the old stand by in everyway possible. Today I will focus on :) crosscutting small stock and the ability of removing the "outrigger table" for more room. Now this setup is of course very specific to my saw, MiniMax Formula S35, so other saws may be set up defferently, have different features and some just plain are now where near as good ;) .

Anyway the following pictures represent what I was doing today. I was crosscutting small tenon stock to create the tenons for my loose Mortise & tenon joints that I have been converted to, by none the less a MM FS41 attached with a mortising attachment. Once again many of the European machines have this feature. If you remember from some prior posts I had pictures of my saw with the outrigger on. In these pics the outrigger is off, the support arm is folded in and I have attached my miter guage. It is a real miter guage and very accurate once set up. It has mutilple stops and a telescoping arm. What you will notice is that I have two very large pieces of a A/V Center that I am building for a client, next to my saw. Since I have removed the outrigger look at all the room I have plus I am still able to crosscut stock and rip if I want to. No CS can do both at the same time or even get close to the accuracy of these machines. By the way my CSMS is gone! I do all my crosscutting with either the miter gauge or the outrigger/fence assembly.

[Chris Barton]

Hi Paul,


It is great to see these pictures as well as your comentary regarding the saw use. I will be purchasing a new table saw soon and plan to go with a european design because of the many things you point our. Will your MM take standard USA style blades and dado attachments?

Thanks,

Chris

[Mike Vermeil]

Paul,

Isn't it a bit awkward not being able to get closer to the sawblade when cutting small parts? For instance, wouldn't it be difficult to cut integral tennons on the ends of door pieces, etc. Obviously it's much safer not to be in line with the blade, but it just seems like it would be awkward.

PS - I'm sick to death of wooden sleds, so no need to convince me of the saw's benefits for breaking down sheet goods.

Oh ya, if you don't have a SCMS any longer, how do you cut the ends of 8 foot long pieces of crown and the like? You must still have a CMS then?

[Paul B. Cresti]

Hi Paul,


It is great to see these pictures as well as your comentary regarding the saw use. I will be purchasing a new table saw soon and plan to go with a european design because of the many things you point our. Will your MM take standard USA style blades and dado attachments?

Thanks,

Chris

Chris,
Europeans in general do not use stacked dado heads like we do ( I longer use either). They view them as real safety issue. Some manufacturers will allow a dado head and even some of the MM full combo machines do. I for one use my router but I do plan on install/making a dedicated router table on the out feed side of the rip fence in order to use the slider for the ultimate dado machine. Since the router will be a dedicated one no other tool in my shop will be will tied down. Yes MM machines do use the normal blades. My saw inparticular has a 1" arbor flange.

[Paul B. Cresti]

Paul,

Isn't it a bit awkward not being able to get closer to the sawblade when cutting small parts? For instance, wouldn't it be difficult to cut integral tennons on the ends of door pieces, etc. Obviously it's much safer not to be in line with the blade, but it just seems like it would be awkward.

PS - I'm sick to death of wooden sleds, so no need to convince me of the saw's benefits for breaking down sheet goods.

Oh ya, if you don't have a SCMS any longer, how do you cut the ends of 8 foot long pieces of crown and the like? You must still have a CMS then?

Mike,
I was actually cutting small parts with that setup. Using the fence as a stop the pieces were only 2-1/4" long and the best part is I am completely away form the danger zone. I can actually get real close to the blade. Since the outrigger is remove or even if you stand behind the outrigger or miter fence, there is only 12" between (the slider width) me an the blade.

The only SCMS I have is for installing trim in rooms and that one is not even in the shop. The slider is much more accurate and safer. I am limited to my crosscut ability by the wall in my shop to the left of the saw. My limit is about 8ft. The crosscut fence for the outrigger extends to about 10'-0" I think

[Roy Wall]

Paul,

do you use the sliding table to "rip"........?

[Gail O'Rourke]

Paul, as a newer member here, I am late to getting to know you and your saw, what I see I like...keep the info coming. I am interested to follow along...

[Paul B. Cresti]

Paul,

do you use the sliding table to "rip"........?

Roy,
Yes I do use the slider to rip. See the previous thread (just do a search 'cause I ain't to sure where it is) and pics. I have a jig I made for ripping with the slider for. In that thread I explain my method.

[Richard Wolf]

Nice tread and shop my friend, keep the posts coming.

Richard

[Jim Becker]

Paul, it might be helpful for folks to see you making some of those cuts...use your camera's timer to do the shot so you can be making the cut or at least simulating the same for safety.

[Dan Forman]

Thanks for taking the time to introduce us to your saw. Now if only there was a way to maneuver one through my 29" basement door and down the stairs. :(

Dan

[lloyd morris]

Paul,

Thanks again for the great photo's, insights and explanation of the advantages and capabilities of a ESPS. As someone who is new to this forum and very interested in ESPS your post is very helpful.


I for one use my router but I do plan on install/making a dedicated router table on the out feed side of the rip fence in order to use the slider for the ultimate dado machine. Since the router will be a dedicated one no other tool in my shop will be will tied down.

I had a question about how you can install and use a router with the slider. Isn't the slider on the opposite side of the outfeed table and on the other side of the rip fence?

Thanks,

Lloyd

[Bill Grumbine]

Will your MM take standard USA style blades and dado attachments?

Chris

Hi Chris

I will jump in here with some other MM info, since I have the CU 300 Smart. My saw is a little different than Paul's in that it is a little bit smaller. I only have a 8 1/2' slider and a 12" blade. :p But to answer your question, I have a 5/8" arbor on it, and it will take a dado set up to 13/16". I have used the dado on it and have not found it to be dangerous to use - well, not any more dangerous than a dado on any other saw! I have been able to make a number of cuts with my MM saw that a conventional saw would have trouble making safely, if at all without the building of numerous jigs.

Paul, nice pictorial!

Bill

[Bill Fields]

Paul:


Tx for the useful info. I don't see much in our various threads about cost/money.

Without knowing, I would guess that your MM setup with accessories is pushing $10,000. I know that amount is entirely justifiable if one is a working professional such as yourself.

It would be useful to know the costs of something like your setup.

Addtionally, what combo deals are good buys? etc.

Thanks


Bill Fields

[Rob Russell]

Thanks for taking the time to introduce us to your saw. Now if only there was a way to maneuver one through my 29" basement door and down the stairs. :(

Dan

Dan,

Talk to the manufacturers about the smallest their machines break down to and their ability to get through a narrow opening. That's one of the major reasons I went with Felder over MM - the ability to fit the machines down my hatchway into the basement. My point is that just because something is big in the picture doesn't mean it can't be made small enough to get into your shop.

If you're talking about an inside-the-house 29" door and down the basement stairs, THAT could be quite a rigging challenge, no matter what brand of gear you bought.

Paul's point(s) here are about the virtues of the European style saws and the fact that they aren't just panel saws. FYI, Paul - I wouldn't call these ESPS's, specifically because that could lead people to think they're just good for panels which is what this specific thread is supposed to dispell. I'd call them something like EFSTS - European Format Sliding Table Saw - but not Panel. The Format refers to the fact that the sliding table is right next to the blade. Just a thought.

Rob

[Paul B. Cresti]

Rob,
I was wondering when you would post. You should be known as the master rigger! Your full title should read Rob Russell, M.R. :) Check out Rob's post about getting his Felders into his basement shop. I agree that the new acronym should be EFSTS

Dan,
Rob is correct as each manuf. has different footprints from a full combo machine to a EFSTS. My saw is basicly a "T" shape. The white "table board" (very heavy metal table under the rip fence) was not shipped attached. The actual slider was not on either, mine is a 10'-6". Any slider above 8'-6" is shipped w/o it attached, too big for shipping (at least that is what MM does). So the actual shipped width is quite small in comparison. I do seem to remember hearing that if you have 30" of width you get a MM slider through. A full combo on the other hand has a much bigger footprint, more like a real big box but do check out the SCM website for the full MM lineup as they do have some very compact, smaller machines.

[Paul B. Cresti]

Paul:


Tx for the useful info. I don't see much in our various threads about cost/money.

Without knowing, I would guess that your MM setup with accessories is pushing $10,000. I know that amount is entirely justifiable if one is a working professional such as yourself.

It would be useful to know the costs of something like your setup.

Addtionally, what combo deals are good buys? etc.

Thanks


Bill Fields

Bill,
You are correct in that my saw costs a bit (actually higher than your guess) but it does have its place and after using one you will see what I mean. Check out the MM website for other EFSTS and their prices. There are many other options in the EFSTS. One could get one with a shorter slider, a saw/shaper combo or even a full combo version (saw, shaper, jointer, planer, horizontal mortiser).

I definately have some opinions here on which one I feel will serve you the best :) To me my main goal was to have a very accurate machine that is well built with top quality parts, maintains its repeatability day in and day out, allows me to adjust it anyway I want to, will also allow ME to adjust it and not rely on a special tech to have to do it for me, help me maintain my current finger count (10) and make me smile evertime I work on it and I mean work not admire it! That is what I got and much more from the path that I have chosen.

[John Renzetti]

Tx for the useful info. I don't see much in our various threads about cost/money.

Without knowing, I would guess that your MM setup with accessories is pushing $10,000. I know that amount is entirely justifiable if one is a working professional such as yourself.

It would be useful to know the costs of something like your setup.

Addtionally, what combo deals are good buys? etc.

Thanks
Bill Fields

Hi Bill, Downside of course can be cost. Stand alone sliders in the 8ft and up catagory can range in price from around $7000 all the way to close to $50,000 for something like a Martin T73 with 12ft slider, computer controls, bar code reader.
If you don't have the budget or room for one of these things then sliders are available that will start at around $4000 which is still a lot of money for a majority of folks here. These will have a much smaller footprint with a sliding table in the 36" to 81" range. If you don't use a lot of large sheet goods then there is no need for an 8ft or larger slider. Laguna has one the has a small slider coupled with a Biesemeyer type rip fence in this range. Also there is the Hammer line by Felder which is about the same price range, Rojek, MM, Robland. There's a few more but these are the most known that I can think of now.
Full combinations you can go from about $7000-$8000 with the Hammer, Rojek,Robland. The MM is now in the $12k-$18k range. Felder can be from $13k to double that. Knapp is even more.
For a lot of people these things will increase productivity. A pro cabinetmaker should really give serious consideration to an upgrade. A friend of mine who does a lot of architectural type woodworking and has been featured in Architectural digest estimated that his productivity increased by about 30% when he purchased his Altendorf F-45 about 12 yrs ago.
I've been using a slider since 1998. Was a Felder combo saw/shaper and now have a Felder Format Kappa 40. As I tell people who ask, there is a learning curve to these things, especially a combo type. Some guys who have used a standard Unisaw or PM66 for 30yrs might find the transition a little longer. The slider does a lot of things very well. But if you already have a mitersaw station setup you'll probably find that it is easier to trim the ends off of long boards than to use the slider if you already have it set up for something else.
take care,
John

[Steve Rowe]

Paul:


Tx for the useful info. I don't see much in our various threads about cost/money.

Without knowing, I would guess that your MM setup with accessories is pushing $10,000. I know that amount is entirely justifiable if one is a working professional such as yourself.

It would be useful to know the costs of something like your setup.

Addtionally, what combo deals are good buys? etc.

Thanks


Bill Fields
Bill - Paul & John make some good points about the options available. In any event, this will cost much more than the average American style cabinet saw but they give so much more. I opted for the Felder combo last year and it cost much more than I thought I would ever spend on a woodworking machine and I am a hobbyist. I am professional at my woodworking, just don't make a living doing it. I could have bought a decent new car for the price I paid and I don't regret its purchase for one second. I spend much more time woodworking than I do behind the wheel of my car so to me it offered good value.
Steve