Lacquer?

[Russell Neyman]

I've been a lacquer man for years -- I like the workability, high gloss, and fast-drying characteristics -- but would like to "up" my game.

Any thoughts, tips, or tricks of the trade from those of you with lacquer experience? Favorite brands? Cautionary tales?

As a starting point, I'll briefly summarize my own application process:
•. Sand to 400.
•. Application of boiled linseed oil (to enhance grain).
•. Two coats of de-waxed shellac, followed by 0000 steel wool.
•. 6-10 thin coats of high gloss Deft or Rudd high gloss lacquer, occasionally sanding between coats. I've gone as many as 40 coats.
•. After completely curing, polish with McGwyers Medium Cut auto polishing compound.
. • wax and buff.

[allen thunem]

cane share some end results from your process??

[Tracy Tame]

I, like you would like to "up" my game.
After sanding I have been using Deft sanding sealer and then Deft brushing lacquer.
Does your use of shellac replace the need for sanding sealer, or is it needed to seal the boiled linseed oil?

[Eric Gourieux]

Russell,

My process is similar, but I buff with Tripoli and then White Diamond instead of the polishing compound. How do you apply and polish with the auto compound?

To answer your question, I don't know how you would "up" your game from here. IMO, lacquer can provide the most pleasing finished product. WOP is also an option without the harmful vapors that we have to deal with when using lacquer, but it has it's drawbacks, too. I use Deft semi-gloss rattle can lacquer for most of my lacquer applications. I've tried spraying with a cheap HVLP setup but have not had any better results than with rattle can. After buffing with Tripoli and White Diamond, I wipe on micro-crystalline wax and wipe it off with an old T shirt. I don't use wax because of the fingerprint problem.

[Russell Neyman]

I have found that shellac is a universal "tie coat" that is compatible with everything I use. So, applying it over the BLO assures me of a good bond for the topcoat.

As far as rubbing out the cured lacquer, I treat it as I would auto paint: apply a little, gently buffing with a lambs wool pad mounted on my lathe until the inevitable orange peel disappears. Sometimes I wet-sand with 600 wet-and-dry sandpaper, then polish.

I'm expecting someone wiser than me to come here and tell me there's an easier way.

[Steve Huffman]

I'm not sure you can really improve on your current system Russell. I spray (spray gun/airbrush) lacquer on everything for the same reason, quick drying, and ease to work with. I also painted cars and motorcycles in my early days too, so spraying is the only way for me. I will wet sand my final coat to 800 and use rubbing compound on the lathe, then finer polishing compound, then Ren. Wax for final. Rubbing compound still leaves a dull surface, so glazing compound clears that up before you wax. If your just using rubbing compound, you'll want to add polishing compound after as well before wax.
I bought the Beall buffing system and it's sitting on my shelf. I even use this same method on finials and pedestals because there is no way you can hold a thin finial against a buffing wheel, buff it evenly or get into the tight areas. There's also a much higher risk of something bad happening like breakage or burn through even on bowls or anything you turn on the lathe. The compounds are wet so they run cooler, and you can polish up the finest finial while spinning it on the lathe with a simple paper towel. I use a very small fine cloth for the Renaissance wax though. I'm not knocking the Beall System, and though it might work for a lot of folks, it doesn't hold a candle to the compounding system I just described here. I can't even get into the bottom of smaller bowls or boxes with a buffing wheel, but I sure can get compound anywhere I can hand sand and do it safely without the risk of burn through on the sharp edges especially. Speed is another factor, I simply grab a different piece of paper towel instead of changing out one of the 3 buffer wheels.
NO MORE FUZZY WHITE FLUFF UP MY NOSE EITHER!!!

WOW, Sorry about writing the book about it...:D hope it helps a few out though.

Steve

Forgot to mention, compounding also works good on well cured Poly finish, but I personally think the lacquer was still a bit more shinier. My opinion, Lacquer is like glass, poly is like shiny plastic.
Just my .02¢

[Faust M. Ruggiero]

Well Russell, I have to admire your process. I also apply Boiled Linseed Oil to jump start the drama of the grain but I skip the shellac. I've always felt the shellac could become the weak link in a process that includes it under lacquer. Many will argue with me because shellac can become a great binder but if it is old it can make more problems than it cures. I merely wait a good long time for the oil to dry. If I need to hurry, I would rather skip the oil all together. A thinned coat of lacquer also brings out the grain nicely.
It takes patience to spray as many coats as you do, especially since you sand between coats. I expect you are spraying nitrocellulose lacquer not a catalyzed lacquer. Like you, I always believed in the rule "It's not how much you spray on, it's how much you leave on". I changed my mind after buying Sherwin Williams pre-cat. It has a lot more solids than NC and was designed for cabinet and furniture shops who needed to save time and spray fewer coats. I thin it 30% and is still viscous enough not to run on a vertical surface. I spray the first two coats without sanding then sand with 320 grit after the second coat. I sand till all texture in the finish is dead smooth. I allow a few hours drying time prior to sanding. Sanding will not produce balls of finish by then. I use a retarder in the last coat so the finish has plenty of time to level out. I recently switched to ChemCraft because they sell it to me in gallons and their acrylic lacquer will not yellow the wood. The company I buy it from catalyzes it for me and the gallon has a six month shelf life that I stretch to a year with no problem. I buy two glosses. 90 which is and high gloss. If I want to cut the gloss I do that when I rub out the finish. I also buy 10 which is a very low gloss. I use that on pieces I carve to create a texture. I don't want to rub out finish on the texture since I will only succeed in removing lacquer on the high spots. I feel the new technology has improved my results and cut the work to achieve those results way down.
By the way, I wait a week or so after the final coat then begin rubbing out the finish with 320 or 400 working my way up to 4000. Then I Bealle buff if I want super high gloss that does not look like plastic.
faust

[robert baccus]

Sand to 220--apply heavy bodied Mohawk SS--2 coats--sand with medium sponge pads(automotive)--spray 2 coats of Mohawk Precat lacquer(sometimes just 1)--will usually be perfect gloss--adjust gloss with Auto paint stores liquid compounds--forget wheels and wax compounds and apply the liquid compounds on the lathe with a auto hand buffing pad. Time 2-4 hours.-----------If orange peel is a problem you can wet sand with soapy water and fine sponge sanding pads.----PS this lacquer must go on with no thinning and a maximum of a teaspoon of retarder--it looks too thick but flows out like glass. (60 years of lacquer use)

[Bob Bergstrom]

If spraying from a rattlesnake try warming the can in hot water before spraying. Heating the lacquer will aid in flow out. Furniture factories have been heating lacquer before it is sprayed for quite some time.

[Thom Sturgill]

Our club finishing mentor uses lacquer almost exclusively. Deft rattlecans, which have been phased out by Lowes and is no longer available locally. He had discovered that the satin and semi-gloss have a different formulation from the gloss, but work well with sanding sealer, which he thins 4-1 for the initial coats, letting the wood soak up as much as it will take. Polishing to about 8000 with micromesh brings a high gloss.

[ALAN HOLLAR]

Lacquer is a binder by it's nature, and doesn't need shellac or sanding sealer to adhere. Shellac is useful as a barrier coat to extend finish life over oily or waxy surfaces. Sanding sealer for lacquer is just lacquer with a mineral soap added to make it faster and easier to sand. It has better "hold out" than plain lacquer, bridging and filling small irregularities better. The lubricant diminishes the film strength, and can attract moisture, so topcoating with lacquer over the sealer is a must. Sealer is really a production aid and can be left out of the sequence altogether unless you are trying for a thickly built texture free finish.

[Frank Drew]

BLO then shellac then lacquer is overkill, IMHO. You might get a slight color change by starting with oil but I don't think you really get an enhanced appearance ("grain pop") vs lacquer (or shellac, or varnish) alone.

[robert baccus]

SS is the secret to a museum finish. 2 coats of an unthinned quality SS wetsanded with a fine sanding pad will level even open grained woods. Big box stores do not handle quality lacquers. Read how guitars and pianos are finished. I use Mohawk which is the same as the discontinued Behlen products but there are other good brands. SS will seal as well as 5 coats of lacquer and also has a filler which is a priceless product when filling pores ect. Shellac is a favorite of some woodturners but I can find no logical use for it. Lacquer was developed as a synthetic shellac--more durable-faster drying-no mixing or getting old. Lac in lacquer is the name of the scale insect which shellac is made from in Asia. I have shot lacquer on cars and wood since 1957 and it has changed a lot in variations. The newer pre-cat lacquers are far more durable and quick to apply than the old nitrocellulose lacquers--also much less yellow. I'm sure there are many commercial products that we do not have easy access to. Be careful as there are new types of retarders being sold to go with precat. They are 50$ a gallon and require a small fraction to defog and help flowout of your sprayjob. Most big box stores often have no idea whatthey are selling.

[Russell Neyman]

Wow, good comments. I had forgotten about heating the can of lacquer in warm water (heard that tip many years ago) but never really followed up. Now, after this, I will. And you're right that Lacquer Sanding Sealer makes a big difference as an undercoat.

Your comments about the BLO have merit, but I have been convinced that the look is deeper and richer than just lacquer alone. It also has a sticky nature, so if I spin it on and then burnish it with sawdust it acts like a grain filler, resulting in a smoother finish. BLO takes days to cure, and shellac dries in minutes, so applying that right over the linseed oil moves the process forward quicker. It's also thicker than lacquer, so the "build" occurs more quickly.

I'm not positive it really helps much, but I know just about everything can so over shellac so I've always thrown it on. Perhaps it's as much habit as anything. (When I need to re-finish a shopworn project and can't remember if the original is lacquer or poly, I add a couple of coats of de-waxed Bullseye just to be sure the new topcoat will stick.)

Faust, please expand your comment about Beall polishing; do you use Tripoli and​ White Diamond?

Thom, most Ace Hardware stores carry both the Deft lacquer and sanding sealer. Recently, a friend introduced me to Rudd lacquer, which is formulated with a higher percentage of cellulose (?) and I'm happy with those results. Hard to find, though.

[Faust M. Ruggiero]

please expand your comment about Beall polishing; do you use Tripoli and​ White Diamond?
Russell,
I do use both. About now, some who have tried buffing lacquer are beginning type their stories about melting the finish. I will mention two things. I buff lightly and quickly and I spray catalyzed lacquer which dries much, much harder than NC.

[robert baccus]

I agree precat is much harder and more durable than nitro cellulose lacquer. I also use a coat of Danish oil to pop the color on darker woods under the SS and lacquer--never on lighter woods.

[Russell Neyman]

You don't apply the Danish oil to lighter woods because you want them to remain as light as possible, Robert?

[Prashun Patel]

Russell-
I'm not sure how you want to up your game. Your regimen sounds good.

You'll get a more flawless finish easier if you invest in HVLP. Or do you strictly want a hand applied technique?

For hand-finishing, consider Abralon pads for polishin. Consider too a high quality alkyd or phenolic varnish thinned to a wipe-on consistency. Your build will be faster than lacquer. More durable, and higher build potential if you like that look.

[Bob Bergstrom]

I would not spray cat lacquer on light wood I wanted to stay white. Cat lacquer has hardeners in it that will yellow with age. My kitchen cabinets are 25 years old and finished with Cat lacquer. They have a mellow yellow cast over the medium brown stain. I have also read that sanding sealer or low luster lacquer will also obscure the clarity of the wood. Finisher's Choice by Mohawk is a very friendly clear water white lacquer. I have gone to pre-cat lacquer for its durability. Most of my bowls have color to them so some yellowing doesn't matter.

[John Sincerbeaux]

Sand to 220--apply heavy bodied Mohawk SS--2 coats--sand with medium sponge pads(automotive)--spray 2 coats of Mohawk Precat lacquer(sometimes just 1)--will usually be perfect gloss--adjust gloss with Auto paint stores liquid compounds--forget wheels and wax compounds and apply the liquid compounds on the lathe with a auto hand buffing pad. Time 2-4 hours.-----------If orange peel is a problem you can wet sand with soapy water and fine sponge sanding pads.----PS this lacquer must go on with no thinning and a maximum of a teaspoon of retarder--it looks too thick but flows out like glass. (60 years of lacquer use)


Robert,
what size nozzle do use when spraying the heavy bodied SS?
Same size for the pre-cat lacquer?
and you don't reduce the lacquer at all?

Thanks

[robert baccus]

Roger that Russell.

[Russell Neyman]

Betty Scarpino sent me thIs:

"I'm happy to tell you how I achieve an excellent finish with lacquer … however, it can be a tricky process and I find that almost without exception no one seems to have wanted to even give it a try. They ask, but then their eyes glaze over. For smaller work, though, it's easy and does leave a great finish.

"I discovered the process many, many years ago when I tried to apply finish to turned bowls that were made from padauk and maple. The fine red sawdust of the padauk would bleed into the maple, no matter what I did. So, I tried applying a coat of wipe-on lacquer (Deft), then wiping it off right away with a paper towel to remove the red from the maple. Presto! The red sawdust wiped away and the finish was perfect. I began to use that process on most items I finish with lacquer. I exclusively have used Deft brand for this process. Occasionally I will thin the Deft, especially if it's been sitting around for awhile and has thickened somewhat.

"I have since realized that when spraying lacquer, the finish basically sits on the surface of the wood. That's okay--there are times that's what's called for. But with a wipe-on method, saturating the wood results in the finish penetrating in a way that simply leaves the wood looking more like the finish has bonded rather than sitting on the surface. I think a neat experiment would be to get a piece of maple, sand it smooth, and mark off sections. In one section, drop on spots of lacquer, let them sit for a minute, then wipe off the excess. After that, spray the surface and see if the spots are noticeable, which I think they would be, and would show the penetration of the lacquer versus the surface finish.

"I apply three coats. The second coat is a bit more tacky than the first. The third coat is the most difficult to get smooth.

"My method of wiping on is to saturate the wood with finish, then wipe off most of the excess using a paper towel, Bounty or Viva work best. This is immediately followed with wiping with a clean cotton cloth, something like an old bed sheet works best. It has to be cotton cloth without much lint possibilities. I buy old bed sheets from Goodwill.

"In between coats, I occasionally lightly rub with 0000 steel wool in spots or areas where the finish wasn't rubbed smooth. Same with the final finish.

"Repair would be the same process, although that can be a bit tricky, as it is with lacquer-finish repair anyway.

"Of course any finish is only as good as the wood surface below. I explain my process with that, too, but again, eyes glaze over. I sand to 220 with Norton 3X paper, then switch to Sia-soft pads (blue) at 240. That's followed by Sia-soft 320, then I'm finished. Sia-soft is used in the automotive industry and I find it removes scratch marks and doesn't leave additional ones that need sanding out.

"I generally use this process on maple. For darker woods, walnut and cherry, I use an oil finish.

"... I'm sure others have excellent results with lacquer; what I describe above works for me, but that's probably because I can be a tad bit OCD with finishing. "

[Stan Smith]

I've learned a lot from all of your threads. I've been using WOP for most of my non-pen stuff and applying it off of the lathe. I was reading some finish customer reviews, on the PSI site, within the last year and one recommendation was to use a 50/50 mix of Deft brush on lacquer and lacquer thinner. I bought some small glass jars and that's what I've been using for pens with good results. I use gloss. I apply the 1st coat with the lathe off, let it run for 2 mins, and then buff with a soft lint-free cloth for 2 minutes. While the lathe is still going. I just hit it lightly with 2 passes and alternate the application with buffing every 1.5 minutes for each of the subsequent coats. I do this for 6 coats. I'm sure there may some finishes that yield more luster, but I want a very durable finish on the pens I make. I've used the brush on deft a number of times on furniture with good results and it provides a tough finish. The one thing that always holds true is that there are many methods and products that people swear by so it's good to keep an open mind.

[Russell Neyman]

I've learned a lot from all of your threads....The one thing that always holds true is that there are many methods and products that people swear by so it's good to keep an open mind.

Thanks, Stan. As someone who tries to take a leadership/teacher role among the local woodturners, my orientation in these Internet conversations is to begin a healthy dialogue and try to take my own performance to another level if I can. Sawmill Creek is great for that. There are some tremendously knowledgeable people here. I often advise the newbies who come to my shop that I only offer one way of accomplishing a task; no woodturner can provide the way because (as the wise man from India once said) "There are many ways to tickle an elephant."

I've used lacquer -- quite successfully, I think -- for decades but still I've taken a couple of tips from this discussion, some reaffirmations of what I knew but also some new methods. The higher nitrocellulose varieties, which is suspect is what Deft's Sanding Sealer is, really makes a difference. I also messed with Rudd's satin and gloss lacquers and believe that the finish is superior to anything else I've tried. I can't wait to try wiping on a brush-quality material, per Betty's technique. For several years now, I've used auto polish to remove the slight orangepeel, but from what I've learned through this thread I'll probably go back to a fast, light buff with the Beall system again.

Like all finishes, lacquer has strengths and weaknesses. It's a quick, glossy finish that dries quickly and comes in opaque colors. It can be buffed out to become as smooth as an automotive paint job. Those two qualities taken together make is suitable for my shop where I don't have a dust-free finishing area, so any dust that might collect in the ten minute tack time can always be rubbed out. BUT it also reacts to high humidity and apparently isn't incredibly UV stable. I use it for my decorative pieces but not for the practical salad bowls to things that will be abused by the purchaser. Since this thread began I experimented with warming the product and it does, indeed, become remarkably smoother at higher temperature.