Veritas PM-V11 plane blades: Add a hollow grind?

[Allan Speers]

As per Derek Cohen's current overall sharpening method, I've recently begun to add a hollow grind to a lot of my plane blades and chisels, and am honing them freehand. There's no question that freehand honing is much easier on a hollow, and it's so fast & convenient for quick touch ups.


OK, so now I'm considering getting a few of the Veritas PM-V11 blades for some of my Bailey planes. These come with a flat edge. I can't decide if I should immediately add a hollow to these or not.

Does LV grind them flat for marketing reasons, or to keep the cost low?

Or maybe PM-V11 is somehow too brittle for a hollow grind?

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Does anyone know?

Any recommendations?

[Zuye Zheng]

Most plane blades, premium and others, seem to be flat ground. Probably since theres a good amount who don't use a hollow grind and much easier to go from flat to hollow than the reverse.

Have a couple PM-V11 blades and chisels, don't personally hollow grind but they don't seem any more brittle than other O1 blades.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Allan

To create a bevel on a blade in mass production, the blades are lined up alongside one another, and then a surfacer is simply run along the edge at angle. The blades are given a secondary micro bevel to start the sharpening process. You are expected to take it from there. Recall that LV (like LN) sell honing guides, so their preference is a secondary bevel on a flat grind. Some custom planemakers may offer a hollow grind blade (HNT Gordon is one that comes to mind) since their volumes are low and they can take the time to set up each plane individually. I automatically hollow grind any blade that arrives with a flat primary and a secondary bevel.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

Does LV grind them flat for marketing reasons, or to keep the cost low?

My guess is it is because of the equipment they use. LV sells a power sharpening system, that has had good reviews, designed on the flat bevel. The equipment they use to flatten the backs of their blades is also a flat bevel system.

For some the hollow grind is a fantastic advantage to free hand sharpening.

My set up is pretty much dedicated toward flat bevels for now.

jtk

[Allan Speers]

Hi Allan

To create a bevel on a blade in mass production, the blades are lined up alongside one another, and then a surfacer is simply run along the edge at angle. The blades are given a secondary micro bevel to start the sharpening process. You are expected to take it from there. Recall that LV (like LN) sell honing guides, so their preference is a secondary bevel on a flat grind. Some custom planemakers may offer a hollow grind blade (HNT Gordon is one that comes to mind) since their volumes are low and they can take the time to set up each plane individually. I automatically hollow grind any blade that arrives with a flat primary and a secondary bevel.

Regards from Perth

Derek

That's a good point.

But again, I'm also concerned about PM-V11 possibly being too brittle for a hollow. Have you used any of these?

Does anyone know?

[Reinis Kanders]

I have two PMV 2 3/8" stanley replacement blades that are my primary blades in very old Stanley No.6 and not that old Millers Falls 4 1/2 equivalent. I hollow grind them on CBN wheel at around 25 to 30 degrees and them hone them like Derek on spyderco or sometimes on washita because I like the feel of the oilstones better. Anyways hollow grind works well. I hand planed a lot of Ash with these blades this summer while building new workbench top and doing all surfaces by hand from rough. With cap iron set close No.6 could take full width .005 shavings against the grain for a long time (hours) with considerable, but manageable effort. I am happy to be done with all this planing though:)

[Allan Speers]

Thanks, Reinis ! That is (obviously) exactly what I wanted to know. Excellent news.


On the same subject - Does anyone have an option on whether it's worth also getting the LV matching chip-breakers?

[Stewie Simpson]

Hi Allan. I personally cant understand the need to hollow grind the primary bevel on bd plane irons. More suited to bu plane irons where the bevel angle needs to be closely managed.

Unless your dealing with paring chisel, applying a hollow grind to any impact chisels should be considered a no no. * I cant speak on Japanese chisels as I never used them.

Stewie;

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Allan. I personally cant understand the need to hollow grind the primary bevel on bd plane irons. More suited to bu plane irons where the bevel angle needs to be closely managed.

Unless your dealing with paring chisel, applying a hollow grind to any impact chisels should be considered a no no. * I cant speak on Japanese chisels as I never used them.

Stewie;


And why would this be the case with BD and BU planes, Stewie?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Ray Selinger]

If you buy a PM-VII blade you , you've spent a fair bit, the chip breaker isn't that much more. Others have said if you are a budget, just get the chip breaker/cap-iron.

I had to taper a bevel on 3/4' baltic birch plywood, a belt or disc sander were far too clumsy, so I used my jack plane. An ordinary blade would have meant a couple of sharpenings, but the PM-VII was still sharp afterwards!

[Derek Cohen]

...On the same subject - Does anyone have an option on whether it's worth also getting the LV matching chip-breakers?

Hi Allan

Some like the Stanley chip breakers, however I find them very flexible and when tightened they have a tendency to stretch over the edge of the blade if set close. The chipbreaker I prefer is the LV. It has a good amount of metal support underneath and will easily accept a high secondary bevel if you plan to prepare it for closing up on the blade. The LN has a small amount of support underneath and, although the LN and LV look similar, the LV is easier to set up. Further, the LV has a large knurled chipbreaker screw, which is easiest of all to tighten with fingers. That is also helpful when setting a chipbreaker close to the edge of the blade.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Reinis Kanders]

I bought veritas cap iron as well because my No.6 actually had a weird combo of old 2 3/16" blade with 2 5/16, chipbreaker like in old 5 1/2, but with even smaller blade. So I replaced them both. Veritas cap iron is nice because it mates well with the iron, I also bevel it like Derek mentions on his website, around 50 degrees and 1 to 1.5 mm wide.

If you have an existing original good iron and cap iron then there is really no need to replace them. Old irons do sharpen up fast and work well.


Thanks, Reinis ! That is (obviously) exactly what I wanted to know. Excellent news.


On the same subject - Does anyone have an option on whether it's worth also getting the LV matching chip-breakers?

[bill tindall]

The steel LV calls PMV11 is tougher than any steel you have likely ever used. This steel will not suffer hollow grinding.

Personally I think unless one is hollow grinding on a 4" wheel there is nothing to worry about with any steel. I have never had a problem using my 7" wheel.

[Brian Holcombe]

Can you use the veritas chip breakers on LN planes?

[bill tindall]

Not in my shop. I hollow grind everything. Makes sharpening quicker and easier. A hollow sucks flat on a cast iron plate charged with diamond. Makes bevel registration secure.

[Derek Cohen]

I have been using PM-V11 from preproduction times as I was one of the testers for Lee Valley. I hollow grind all my blades, and this included the first blades, and all subsequent PM-V11 blades. I have used a 10" Tormek, 8" white Norton wheels, and 8" CBN wheels. They all produced a trouble-free hollow on this steels, whether in chisel or plane blade form. The steel has been excellent in achieving and holding a fine edge.

All BU blades are hollow ground at 25 degree, and a micro secondary is added. Essentially it comes down to two angles, 25 degrees for end/cross grain and 25 degrees+50 degree secondary for a smoother. For BD planes, I hollow at 30 degrees and freehand hone on top of that. The only disappointment I have had with PM-V11 is when I tested a 25 degree hollow on the LN #51 shooting plane (i.e. 45 degree bed). It was very ordinary, no different from a LN A2 blade. Previously I had superior results from shooting a 25 degree BU blade, and I expected the same. BD blades really benefit from a 30 degree primary, regardless of steel type (Note: my primary is the same as the final angle since I hone on a hollow).

With regard chipbreakers, I know that I cannot swap a LV chipbreaker to my LN #3. From memory, either the screw is slightly too high on the LN or the cut out is different.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks Derek!

[Allan Speers]

I have been using PM-V11 from preproduction times as I was one of the testers for Lee Valley. I hollow grind all my blades, and this included the first blades, and all subsequent PM-V11 blades. I have used a 10" Tormek, 8" white Norton wheels, and 8" CBN wheels. They all produced a trouble-free hollow on this steels, whether in chisel or plane blade form. The steel has been excellent in achieving and holding a fine edge.

All BU blades are hollow ground at 25 degree, and a micro secondary is added. Essentially it comes down to two angles, 25 degrees for end/cross grain and 25 degrees+50 degree secondary for a smoother. For BD planes, I hollow at 30 degrees and freehand hone on top of that. The only disappointment I have had with PM-V11 is when I tested a 25 degree hollow on the shooting plane. It was very ordinary, no different from a LN A2 blade. Previously I had superior results from shooting a 25 degree BU blade, and I expected the same. BD blades really benefit from a 30 degree primary, regardless of steel type.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Great info. Thanks, Derek.

[Kees Heiden]

I have also hollow ground my LV blade made from "the steel LV calls PMV-11". No problems in a BD plane. I hollow grind at something like 25 degrees, but add a small secundairy bevel at a higher angle. All freehand, so I have no idea what angle precisely, but the edge doesn't crumble.

It is not so much the primary angle that matters in a BD plane. It is the final angle at the edge after all sharpening, honing and stropping is done. The acid test is if the edge holds up for the type of work you do on the type of wood you use. I often find antique wooden planes where the primary angle is very shallow, like 15 degrees. After adding a secundairy bevel, those blades hold up perfectly well.