Cutter Vision by JT Turning

[Scott Brandstetter]

Apologize if this has been posted. This is really crazy in my opinion. I didn't even get to the point of finding out how much it it. It will be fun to get different reactions to this tool......combining turning with electronics like this. Old school vs new technology.

What say you. Oh, and before someone says it, I agree, not sure it is really needed. Many HF have been turned just fine before this.

[Bill Bulloch]

Trent Bosch interduced this at the 2013 AAW Symposium in Tampa. His had a price tag of over $600. Since then several members in our club have made there own with a $30 camera and a old TV monitor. They are not as fancy as JT Tools, but they work and they like them.

[Dwight Rutherford]

Alan Zenreich posted a u-tube video on how to DIY one.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pidLwThKHSw
I just put one together for less than $70.00. Not yet convinced it is better than my laser set up. Need to play with it a bit more.

[Curtis Myers]

I have the Trent Bosch setup. Makes hollowing a little more tolerable. Also like hollowing off the end of the lathe.

All the Best
Curt

[Hal Taylor]

Scott, many hollow forms were turned before captured bar systems, articulating jigs, lasers, carbide hollowers, etc. That's progress and new technology.

[Alan Dick]

To me, the major advantage of any of the video viewing solutions over the laser, beside the "coolness" factor, is that it eliminates the necessity of changing the position of the laser as you move to different places along the profile of the inside of the hollow form. For example, if you have a round cutter, and you were using the laser, it would need to be set to different points around the cutter, depending on the direction of the cut and the shape of the hollow form at the point at which you are cutting. The same would be true with any fixed position cutter. With the video systems, you mark a uniform distance from the cutter around its entire profile, and as you cut, you can see what part of the cutter is making contact with the wood and use the appropriate point on your marking as a gauge of wall thickness. With the laser, you would have to reset the laser as you progressed down the profile of the hollow form.

If you are using an adjustable cutter, i.e., one on a swivel, rather than a fixed cutter, as you change the position of the cutter relative to the shaft of the boring bar, then the advantage of the video goes away, or is at least reduced greatly, as you would then need to your adjust your wall thickness guide every time you adjusted the cutter.

[Tom Wilson66]

This looks a really cool technique. Just wondering, if you were using a swiveling cutter, could the tracing on the monitor be rotated and retaped to match the cutter? Since the focal length would stay the same, the outline should still match the cutter.

[Don Bunce]

If you are using a dry erase marker,it is much easier to erase the tracing and redraw the outline of the cutter. The shaft of the tool will still be in it's original position.

[Steve Doerr]

Scott, I think this technology is the next logical step in the progress of modern turning. Yes, many HF have been turned without the use of lasers or video technology. But, I'm sure in not the too near future, this will become the accepted practice. It will be just one more tool used by woodturners to perfect their craft/art. If you stop to think about it, this was probably a similar discuss that was held went an electric motor was added to the lathe. That technology did not destroy the craft or art of woodturning. I see this as just another step in the progression of modern woodturning.

If you want, look at the medical profession and see how much technology is used everyday in surgery or even in your regular doctor's office visit.

[Thom Sturgill]

When Trent introduced his device it was mounted on a hand held hollower as a 'training device'. Tom Steyers mounts to his captured hollower and is intended as a permanent fixture. At some point the tech gets in the way of the art for some, but helps others. Personally I like Trent's approach since I hand hollow. I find it appeals to me much more than assisted does.

[Russ Denz]

For myself and other "short guys" (as in wheelchair-bound) this new technology is truly an enabler! Consider trying to watch the laser, and the cutter it represents, as it disappears over the horizon of your hollow form, or even a bowl, as you get nearer to the base of your project. The video would be akin to eyes in the sky - what a breakthrough...without actually breaking through. Gotta get/make one of these!

[Peter Blair]

Tom this is the technique I use. As a matter of fact I use it on most of my cutters. I find it generally much easier to turn my already drawn mylar to match the new cutter position and cause I am partly 'brain dead' I often find I have to go back and use a precious cutter which would at least to me make the whole process more like a tracing class than spinning wood.

[Alan Zenreich]

Dwight,

The video I posted using a CCTV camera is an effective implementation of a simple camera setup.
It is one of three hollowing variations I show in a youtube clip I made about several ways to use live video in woodturning projects (the CCTV video is the first of the detailed configurations, and is the simplest)
Personally, I prefer a iPhone based solution, as it's the most flexible... and I already have the device in my pocket (I will make a detailed video about that soon)

For anyone interested, here's the overview video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kYF3fgwhBs

[Don Bunce]

Hollowing in reverse allows you to be in a more comfortable position because you don't have to reach over the bed. The disadvantage when using a laser is that the beam disappears on the far side, making it difficult to see. The video system solves this problem by allowing you to see the tool position easily on the screen.

I used a automobile back up system for mine. Camera and monitor together was $40 from Amazon. Runs on a 12 volt battery.

[Scott Hackler]

Back to the original post and question....

I have seen JT Tools' setup and played with it and Trent Bosch's version as well. I can see how it is an improvement in a wall thickness gauge, but JT Tools' unit is very expensive and so I deemed it out of the running for my collection of tools. I own their Gizmo articulated hollower and am a satisfied customer, but I won't be buying the camera rig from them. Or from Trent for that matter.

When it (and I mean when) gets to bothering me that I don't have such a rig..... I will be ordering the 7" screen and backup camera I have saved in my eBay account and rigging it up next to my laser. It is just not super important for me right now and honestly I find myself hand hollowing smaller items so I don't use any type of rig or laser.

[Glen Blanchard]

Video hollowing such as THE VISUALIZER or CUTTER VISION is the next logical step beyond the laser. Its primary advantage is not having to constantly relocate the laser position as one works down towards the bottom of the form. Like anything else, it's not for everybody. Neither is the laser for that matter. That being said, I bought Tom's CUTTER VISION at last year's SWAT meeting. Love it!

[lee apgar]

I am a newbie to turning. I picked up one of the Cuttervision systems and have thoroughly enjoyed learning how to hollow without blowing stuff up. I think the system is kinda like the shaped skis of hollowing.

[ron david]

I have the Trent Bosch setup. Makes hollowing a little more tolerable. Also like hollowing off the end of the lathe.

All the Best
Curt
I am curious of what you say that it makes hollow turning more tolerable. what I gather is that it removes some of the skill level. makes it easier to do. next year you''ll have robots doing it..
if one finds what they are doing as not tolerable; why do it in the first place.
can you omagine going to a conference and it is all done by robots.
ron

[Jon Nuckles]

I am curious of what you say that it makes hollow turning more tolerable. what I gather is that it removes some of the skill level. makes it easier to do. next year you''ll have robots doing it..
if one finds what they are doing as not tolerable; why do it in the first place.
can you omagine going to a conference and it is all done by robots.
ron

I'm not sure what Curtis meant, but I do see that he said "hollowing" and not "hollow turning" as you paraphrased. I like turning hollow forms, but I certainly don't enjoy hollowing, and not because it requires a high level of skill. Quite the opposite, it is boring and repetitive. Like sanding, it is one of the things I have to do to make a finished product after the fun parts are over with. Bring on the hollowing robots!

[ron david]

I'm not sure what Curtis meant, but I do see that he said "hollowing" and not "hollow turning" as you paraphrased. I like turning hollow forms, but I certainly don't enjoy hollowing, and not because it requires a high level of skill. Quite the opposite, it is boring and repetitive. Like sanding, it is one of the things I have to do to make a finished product after the fun parts are over with. Bring on the hollowing robots!
then why would you need all the gizmos as you have all the viability of the inside of the vessel. it is just a curved over open form. just turn it
ron

[Brice Rogers]

This is certainly a controversial topic with a lot of opinions posted.

In the last year I was fortunate to observe a presentation made by Mike Jackoffsky and by David Ellsworth. Both have done thousands of hollow forms. Neither uses lasers or camera systems. I watched as David was following an 8 inch HF to a wall thickness around 3/16 or 1/4 inch. He mentioned that he got a lot of clues of the wall thickness from feel, from the temperature (I thought that was interesting!) and, of course, from sound. When he started getting close to the final thickness then he took out his "C" shaped piece of stiff wire (50 cents worth) and checked the wall thickness.

So, my opinion is that the high tech devices help us wood turners who lack a little on some skills and the "zen" of wood turning. Also, many of us enjoy some of the new toys. The experts don't need those devices and can rely on their experience and skills.

[ron david]

This is certainly a controversial topic with a lot of opinions posted.

In the last year I was fortunate to observe a presentation made by Mike Jackoffsky and by David Ellsworth. Both have done thousands of hollow forms. Neither uses lasers or camera systems. I watched as David was following an 8 inch HF to a wall thickness around 3/16 or 1/4 inch. He mentioned that he got a lot of clues of the wall thickness from feel, from the temperature (I thought that was interesting!) and, of course, from sound. When he started getting close to the final thickness then he took out his "C" shaped piece of stiff wire (50 cents worth) and checked the wall thickness.

So, my opinion is that the high tech devices help us wood turners who lack a little on some skills and the "zen" of wood turning. Also, many of us enjoy some of the new toys. The experts don't need those devices and can rely on their experience and skills.
from what David says of temperature is how fast it starts to move, sounds tells you a lot and a light bulb can also tell you a lot. brazing rod is also good for c shapes and it holds better than wire. but that is how to build your confidence. you might blow a few getting the process down but that is the part of learning.
ron

[Jon Nuckles]

then why would you need all the gizmos as you have all the viability of the inside of the vessel. it is just a curved over open form. just turn it
ron
Sorry Ron, but I don't understand your response. What do you mean by "all the viability of the inside of the open vessel"? Maybe you misunderstood me. I am talking about hollowing out the inside of a hollow form. It is a tedious process and I don't like the frequent stops to blow out the shavings with compressed air.

[ron david]

Sorry Ron, but I don't understand your response. What do you mean by "all the viability of the inside of the open vessel"? Maybe you misunderstood me. I am talking about hollowing out the inside of a hollow form. It is a tedious process and I don't like the frequent stops to blow out the shavings with compressed air.
sorry ; but I have seem to have dropped an s there. it should have been visibility . I felt that you fellows were talking about hollow turned vessels, but the term that you are using hollow form and now I gather that the hollow form has a larger opening. some jobs are as you
Some operations are tedious to some but there is a process to doing a lot off things in this world and sometimes it just takes a while to get there. it is like the Indy 500 or a F1 race. most of the excitement in those events is the start and the finish. why have the rest of the race as it would be classified as being tedious. some people are patient while others are not. some jobs require patience. it is a part of how to get to the end here is a link to some of my work and some of which one could call open forms and some which you could say are hollow turned or as Mel Lindquist would have referred to as blind boring.Some of them are up to 2' tall
http://s908.photobucket.com/user/padresag/library/turned%20works?sort=3&page=1
here are some smaller hollow turned stuff and one that is completely hollow and is 1/8" wall thickness and no jigs or whatever used on any of them
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1600x1200q90/923/XCmjqc.jpg

ron

[Dwight Rutherford]

So these were done on a pole lathe or ?

[ron david]

So these were done on a pole lathe or ?
all any lathe does is make the wood go around. It is what gets done when it is going around that counts. and I have worked on a pole lathe and it was propelled by my foot not some computerized gizmo.
but both of my lathes would be classified by you guys as next to a pole lathe. 1 is circa 1947 and the other I purchased in 82 and every hollowing tool I have made so I guess that puts me back to cave man does it?
ron

[Wes Ramsey]

then why would you need all the gizmos as you have all the viability of the inside of the vessel. it is just a curved over open form. just turn it
ron

I think you're giving the camera a little too much credit. It doesn't show you anything inside the vessel, just a live picture of the outside of it. You trace your hollowing tool on a sheet of acetate and tape it to the screen so you can see where the tool is in relation to the outside of the vessel. Similar in function to a laser, just different.

Trent markets his system as one that a beginner can pick up and use without much training, and that using the tool will help the rookie learn technique. Personally I think it is admirable for such an accomplished turner to have such a passion for helping folks improve their skills. New technologies aren't for everyone, but even a pole lathe was a new concept at some point in history.

[Jon Nuckles]

Thanks for the clarification, Ron. I would call the items you posted above hollow forms (I haven't looked at the ones to which you linked). I won't argue that hollowing is not part of the process, just that it is not a 'fun' part for me. (I might argue about your auto racing analogy, as I find all of that boring, but that opinion might get me banned here!)

As for patience, I figure it takes patience to do the hollowing when you don't enjoy it; if you like that part of the job, you don't need patience. Sort of like bravery: if you aren't afraid of something, you don't need to be brave to do it. ;)

I don't have the camera-based system myself. I use the Monster articulated system with a laser. The last few passes are interesting, at least if you are going for a thin wall. It is the long process of getting there that gets tiresome. If you can turn a thin wall with no laser, camera or other gizmos, I admire your skills. I imagine you have to go through a few walls before you acquire those skills. Losing a piece that I have patiently hollowed is too big a price for me to pay to acquire the skills, so I am happy to have a laser to guide me.

[ron david]

I think you're giving the camera a little too much credit. It doesn't show you anything inside the vessel, just a live picture of the outside of it. You trace your hollowing tool on a sheet of acetate and tape it to the screen so you can see where the tool is in relation to the outside of the vessel. Similar in function to a laser, just different.

Trent markets his system as one that a beginner can pick up and use without much training, and that using the tool will help the rookie learn technique. Personally I think it is admirable for such an accomplished turner to have such a passion for helping folks improve their skills. New technologies aren't for everyone, but even a pole lathe was a new concept at some point in history.
something like putting training wheels on a bicycle and kids want to get rid of them as soon as possible
ron

[Curtis Myers]

something like putting training wheels on a bicycle and kids want to get rid of them as soon as possible
ron

Its not always about skill as you keep suggesting. To me, the hollowing out a form process is as enjoyable as the sanding process. If their was a reasonable cost robot that could do my sanding. I would get two or three of them.

I recently spoke with Trent Bosch about his Hollowing Stablizer. He developed it to help his students learn hollowing (keeps tool on center, correct tool angle, etc..). After using it for a while Trent came to like for himself and uses it every time he hollows now. Trent has BIG skills but elects to use a nice tool to make the job less taxing.
I watched David Elsworth do a hollowing demo once and his process is physically taxing. Needs really long handles for leverage. The point is that using a Stablizer, Laser, Camera or any other tool are just tools. Some actually help take the mundane out of the process.

All the Best
curt

[Hilel Salomon]

One man's fruit is another man's poison. I have friends who are master craftsmen/artists who would never use a jointer or a planer and yet achieve fantastic results. I admire them and use my jointer, planer and sander. I use a chainsaw and bandsaw regularly as well. As for turning, I hate everything about turning except the turning, and would welcome with enthusiasm any machine, robot or friend who would do all my sharpening, sanding and cleanup for me. I have good roughing tools, but would be more than happy to work with perfectly rounded blanks ready to be used with a screw chuck or faceplate. What I love is to see the shavings fly off the lathe, which-if I'm not mistaken-is a machine with a motor. Now I need to get in touch with some friends, but the smokestack isn't quite ready.

[John Sincerbeaux]

I got into woodturning about two years ago because I wanted to turn large hollow forms. I was taught to hollow by hand. But I just felt there was a better way. My hollowing tools have been evolving ever since. I have a "Stabilizer" and a "Visualizer" as well as a bunch of custom tooling modeled after other vendors. The Visualizer is the most valuable tool for my hollowing efficiency. My limited experience using a laser was less than impressive. In fact, the only vessel I have ever failed was while using a laser.

[robert baccus]

If you want to get away from boring, long, and mundane deep hollowing get away from scraping cutters that tend to cut at right angles to the side of a vase. No lasers or cameras needed here here. Look for technology in cutters and not electronics and gizzmoes.