Glue for Harp

[phil harold]

My daughter wants to build some harps
first a lap harp then something bigger
best glue for laminations?

Resorcinol?
epoxy?
west system?
good ole tite bond?
thanks

[george wilson]

Wurlitzer used Knox unflavored gelatin on their harps to make hide glue that was just about invisible on light woods.

[Scott DelPorte]

I like hot hide glue for guitar building, but for someone's first foray into instrument building, I might just recommend "good ole tite bond" for ease of use.

[Jamie Buxton]

Laminations? Might these be bent laminations? I'm find with Titebond for flat lamination, but the knock on it for bent lamination is that it cold-creeps. I use epoxy (West System) for bent lamination.

[george wilson]

I just don't trust epoxy. Over time it will keep on getting harder and harder till it suddenly fails. I had guitar bridges suddenly and violently pop off when I experimentally tried epoxy years ago. And,when it does fail,you have surfaces full of epoxy to try cleaning off before you can re glue with a better glue.

For surfaces under strain,hide glue is best. It is still holding on many a 200 year old piano or harpsichord. Also often still holding on Egyptian artifacts. No modern adhesives have ben so tested.

[phil harold]

Thanks for the info!

[Jamie Buxton]

.. No modern adhesives have ben so tested..

While it is true that no new adhesive has been used for hundreds of years, many new adhesives have been tested extensively, under high-stress conditions. New airplanes are "composite" -- that is, glued together. Most high-performance cars now use carbon fiber components, and even entire chassis. Carbon fiber material is actually carbon fibers glued together with resins like epoxy.

[george wilson]

Yes,and the top blew right off of an airliner taking off from Hawaii,sucking a stewardess out into space. Don't forget the tail breaking off another large airliner,crashing it into New York(Brooklyn,IIRC). Epoxys are not fool proof,nor are they reversible.They are a very bad choice for use on musical instruments.

[Jamie Buxton]

Yes,and the top blew right off of an airliner taking off from Hawaii,sucking a stewardess out into space. Don't forget the tail breaking off another large airliner,crashing it into New York(Brooklyn,IIRC)...

Do you know that those were epoxy failures?

[george wilson]

What else were they? Super glue? If you want to use epoxy,which is non reversible,potentially hardening till it cracks,and is a mess to work with,feel free. My lifetime of instrument making,with plenty of failed experiments tells me to use tried and true hide glue,which was and is used by the greatest instrument makers who ever lived. It is tonally transparent,reversible,and used by Lyon and Healey and Wurlitzer on their harps. I am sure they have also tried alternatives.

[Nelson Howe]

Fwiw, the pop top planes were Boeing 737s and the cause was metal fatigue centered around some of the rivets. There is no composite in the construction of these airplanes. The tail was an Airbus, and it was a failure of a composite part. Excessive rudder input in response to low level wake turbulence caused the failure. I am not aware whether the failure was due to a failure in the epoxy or shearing of fibers or both or neither.

Nelson

[george wilson]

The tail of theAirbus was carbon graphite. I remember seeing the pictures.

As far as metal failing,it,like anything else can fail if not engineered correctly,like the square windows in the first English jet air liners. However,I mixed my epoxy carefully according to instructions,and it still failed after some months.

Anyway,my personal experience with epoxy was enough to teach me a lesson. I really see no reason to use a glue that is going to be a problem if it fails,when the very best harp makers use hide glue on multi thousand dollar instruments. I refinished a Wurlitzer pedal harp a while back,and can attest to the super fine joints in natural maple they get with hide glue made from Knox unflavored gelatin.

[roger wiegand]

I'm with George on this. I started using hide glue in player piano rebuilds and use it more and more as time goes on. It's reversible, often doesn't require clamping, grabs quickly, doesn't creep, and cleans up nicely, not causing issues with finishes.

[John K Jordan]

started using hide glue in player piano rebuilds

Same here. My player piano restoration mentor convinced me to have pity on the next guy who might want to rebuild it 50 years later. If they had used glues like we have today you couldn't get things apart to rebuild.

I was reminded just yesterday that hide glue is the glue of choice for spinning wheel repair too.

JKJ

[phil harold]

Okay, Hide glue is the answer
where do I get a good inexpensive glue pot?

[george wilson]

You can get a crock pot pretty cheap. Best to not let your glue get over 130 degrees F. If you do,the protein in the glue will get cooked and the glue will be ruined. Use a thermometer to check your heat.

I put my glue inside a small bottle that sits in the water bath of the pot. That way,I don't have to clean out my glue pot. And,I can put the left over glue in the fridge for several days before it starts to stink.

[John K Jordan]

I used a small jar in a water bath in a small metal sauce pan on an old hot plate turned down low.