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Ron Sleeman
07-30-2015, 11:01 AM
Okay boys & girls, I'm about to pull the trigger on a Epilog fusion 40 75watt or a Trotec speedy 400 80 watt. I have read about each of them on the forum. I guess what I'm looking at is the pro & cons on both of them from your point of view...lol I fine that they are both great machines. I will be using them for glass & wood products ,plus we will be using the pull through doors alot. I have a 24 mini 40 watt.

Thanks Ron Sleeman

Tim Bateson
07-30-2015, 11:14 AM
I just did this in May/June and watched both machines put through their paces. Spent a lot of time talking to both companies too. My evaluation is they are soooo much alike (both machine & software), that in my case I went with what I already knew & that is Epilog (lower learning curve). A few pros and cons both ways. Neither is a bad choice. If you have the coin Trotec is very well built. However, Epilog Support has been fantastic and they have built on their solid Mini/Helix design with many improvements for the Fusion.

Some will disagree with my assessment & maybe I didn't help your decision, but if I had bought the Trotec, I wouldn't be any happier than I am with my new Epilog. Again, I don't think you can go wrong with either choice.

Fusion (M2) Improvements from Mini/Helix (off the top of my head):
Screw based table focus – very smooth.
No more focus plunger!
Fans moved to lower back – makes the machine very quiet.
Filter added to fans – although it could be made easier to replace (hint, hint Epilog).
Job Run Time computed BEFORE you hit Go.
Job Manager software very useful.
Multi safeguards to prevent head crashes - Note: Awaiting a firmware fix for one rare scenario we found that still causes a crash.
Not very useful to me, but you can now cut freehand using the machine's joy stick.

Mike Null
07-30-2015, 11:28 AM
It's no contest. Buy the Trotec. Fast, reliable, ready to work when you are. Built like a tank. Best software on the market. Excellent tech support.

Mine is 9 years old and I've had 5 days of downtime to rebuild a tube.

Epilog should be a lot cheaper--just read through the posts for the last couple of weeks.

Tim Bateson
07-30-2015, 11:40 AM
It's no contest. Buy the Trotec...Mine is 9 years old and I've had 5 days of downtime to rebuild a tube...

Epilog Mini - 8 years old with 16 hours (overnight) of down time - Troubleshoot & replace the MB. :D hey Mike Just poking at you. :cool:

Ron Sleeman
07-30-2015, 11:43 AM
Tim, I went to Vancouver last week to watch both machines. I liked them both. There was not much different in price.. Lol. I don't know if Epilog was high or Trotec was gave me a smoken deal...lol. I know, no one likes to talk about cost... Lol, or should I say what is the average price for each machine.

Tim Bateson
07-30-2015, 11:49 AM
Tim, I went to Vancouver last week to watch both machines. I liked them both. There was not much different in price.. Lol. I don't know if Epilog was high or Trotec was gave me a smoken deal...lol. I know, no one likes to talk about cost... Lol, or should I say what is the average price for each machine.

To some degree you are correct. However be sure to verify what "comes with" each. If you still see the same price, you are getting a massive bargain basement price on the Trotec. I paid far less for my M2 AND got a chuck rotory, and Vector table, and Camera system, and blower that wasn't included in the higher Trotec price.

Jeanette Brewer
07-30-2015, 12:16 PM
It's no contest.

I beg to differ. ;)

Bob A Miller
07-30-2015, 12:43 PM
Ron, you know my feelings on this after our chat..

Bottom line one is if they are that similar in price & by all accounts quality....I am going to say go with the better support in BC/Alberta... And that right now is Trotec.

Good luck, what ever way you go. Bob

Gary Hair
07-30-2015, 12:50 PM
This may surprise a few people here but I just bought a Trotec Speedy 400 80 watt machine - it should be here next week! I have been evaluating machines for a while, waiting for my 9 year old GCC to fail (it hasn't...). You really can't go wrong with any of the brand name machines and it all comes down to what features you see that you need the most. The Trotec has everything I need and more, and I got a SMOKING deal thanks to Neville! The large bed, 39" x 24" x 12", pass through, vacuum bed, included air assist, and a whole host of design features, made it a fairly easy decision, as easy as it can be to spend between $30K and $40K that is...

Mike Null
07-30-2015, 12:57 PM
Gary

I am not surprised, I am flabbergasted. Congratulations! I think you're going to love it.

Uma Duffy
07-30-2015, 1:01 PM
The machine should fit your needs. Give equal specs to both and than buy the cheaper one, you will be choosing a top quality machine for the best price. Our 35watt 8000 model epilog tube lasted 10 years with 20% of the working day at full power. On our 45 watt 8000 epilog model the tube lasted 8 years running at 100% power 45% of the working day. maybe luck maybe not? After reading and learning from all the post over the years unless i had a specific need, price would be the determining factor.

Ron Sleeman
07-30-2015, 1:16 PM
Bob, it was great talking to you about Trotec. Plus the other members on here. That is way,when people talk about this site. It is always positive. But dam, what a discussion I have today.. Lol

Kim Vellore
07-30-2015, 1:27 PM
If the prices are close then I would definitely go with Tortec. When I was buying, the Trotec was almost 50% more for a similar machine from Epilog and I still wanted to get a Trotec but went with Epilog to save some $$

Gary Hair
07-30-2015, 1:42 PM
Gary

I am not surprised, I am flabbergasted. Congratulations! I think you're going to love it.

You are the one I figured would be the most surprised, didn't expect flabbergasted! I can't wait until it gets here, more excited than a kid at Christmas!!!

Scott Shepherd
07-30-2015, 2:43 PM
You are the one I figured would be the most surprised, didn't expect flabbergasted! I can't wait until it gets here, more excited than a kid at Christmas!!!

Congratulations Gary, put me on the list with Mike. The last machine I ever thought you'd buy was a Trotec. Enjoy it when you get it.

Keith Outten
07-30-2015, 3:08 PM
It might be of interest to consider that the Trotec 80 watt machine has a ceramic tube which is the most advanced technology available today. Granted the ceramic tubes have not been around long enough to prove themselves but the technology may reduce the cost of ownership over the life of the machine dramatically. It would be prudent to check out the technology and if you believe it has value factor that into any decision to purchase. It is rare for people to discuss this technology here but it is worth the time to investigate the details, this is a very important component that can easily steer the decision to purchase in one direction or the other.

My Trotec Speedy 300 80 watt machine was one of the first that shipped with the new ceramic tube. Its over three years old and functions the same today as it did the day I received the machine. I hope that I can report the same performance level in ten years as the cost to replace an 80 watt tube is not chump change these days. I also recommend that anyone who is considering a new laser engraver inquire about the cost of tube replacement, this is not the kind of information that you want to find out later on when you need a new tube.

Ross Moshinsky
07-30-2015, 3:43 PM
I wouldn't expect Trotec tubes to last any longer than any other tube. The Trotec unit I demo'd was only a few years old and had a leaky tube. Being completely objective, around the same time I demo'd a Universal unit and it also had a leaky tube.

Michael Kowalczyk
07-30-2015, 4:46 PM
it's also about the throughput. how many products you can produce per hour. Cutting not too much of a difference so I hear but engraving nothing comes close to the Trotec .period.
welcome to the Trotec laser family.

thanks,
michael

Kristian Matz
07-30-2015, 6:03 PM
If the prices are close then I would definitely go with Tortec. When I was buying, the Trotec was almost 50% more for a similar machine from Epilog and I still wanted to get a Trotec but went with Epilog to save some $$


I bought my Trotec 400 80w at a trade show last fall. I had previously been researching the fusion 40 75w and the trotec 400 80w for about a year before the trade show. I had been quoted previously for both and the quotes were within a few hundred dollars of each other for as close to the same equipment as I could get. At the show I asked both companies about a show special. Epilog told me there were no show specials on the Fusion models. Trotec cut about $6000 of my quote and added in a few extras. Needless to say, I went with the trotec.

Ron Sleeman
07-30-2015, 7:45 PM
Well.. it's done, I'm a new owner of a Speedy 400 80 watt.. Lol. Epilog was great to deal with in Vancouver, but James from Trotec was to. So I guess, I will see down the road. So James & the Trotec family,do not let me down... Lol

Gary Hair
07-30-2015, 8:19 PM
Congratulations Gary, put me on the list with Mike. The last machine I ever thought you'd buy was a Trotec. Enjoy it when you get it.

It's amazing what a difference a rep can make. I'll elaborate on that a bit later...

Keith Winter
07-30-2015, 10:14 PM
This may surprise a few people here but I just bought a Trotec Speedy 400 80 watt machine - it should be here next week! I have been evaluating machines for a while, waiting for my 9 year old GCC to fail (it hasn't...). You really can't go wrong with any of the brand name machines and it all comes down to what features you see that you need the most. The Trotec has everything I need and more, and I got a SMOKING deal thanks to Neville! The large bed, 39" x 24" x 12", pass through, vacuum bed, included air assist, and a whole host of design features, made it a fairly easy decision, as easy as it can be to spend between $30K and $40K that is...

That's fantastic Gary! Congrats on the new Trotec 400, you'll love it!

Keith Winter
07-30-2015, 10:39 PM
Well.. it's done, I'm a new owner of a Speedy 400 80 watt.. Lol. Epilog was great to deal with in Vancouver, but James from Trotec was to. So I guess, I will see down the road. So James & the Trotec family,do not let me down... Lol

Congrats Ron!

Bob A Miller
07-30-2015, 11:42 PM
Congradulations Ron, you will not be unhappy with it trust me. Usual offer of help etc still applies. Let me know when you get it.

Bob

Ron Sleeman
07-30-2015, 11:49 PM
Thanks Bob...I have your phone # on speed dial....lol

Keith Outten
07-31-2015, 11:12 AM
I wouldn't expect Trotec tubes to last any longer than any other tube. The Trotec unit I demo'd was only a few years old and had a leaky tube. Being completely objective, around the same time I demo'd a Universal unit and it also had a leaky tube.

Ross,

If the Trotec machine you demo'd was older than about three years it probably did not have the new ceramic tube. Take the time to investigate the new Trotec tubes, you might be surprised at the difference. There is a video on Trotec's web site about the new ceramic tubes but I couldn't find the link this morning.


100% ceramic CO2 laser source
Electrodes on the outside of the tube
No welded joints – reduced outgassing
Fired at 800oC, eliminating impurities inside of tube
Longer lifespan than other laser source at > 6 years

Tony Lenkic
07-31-2015, 12:15 PM
Keith,

Here is a link to Youtube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wt35m4pxdfA

Gary Hair
07-31-2015, 12:44 PM
Take the time to investigate the new Trotec tubes, you might be surprised at the difference.

That was one of the bigger decision points for me. I think I am very lucky that my 9 year old GCC is still plugging along with no change in power (no change in settings anyway), and I hoped to get similar results from anything new. The ceramic source has many benefits that should help ensure a very long lifespan. I don't want to think about the cost to replace it, but, hopefully, when that time comes it will be "old technology" and a lot less expensive than it is right now.

Ross Moshinsky
07-31-2015, 1:18 PM
That was one of the bigger decision points for me. I think I am very lucky that my 9 year old GCC is still plugging along with no change in power (no change in settings anyway), and I hoped to get similar results from anything new. The ceramic source has many benefits that should help ensure a very long lifespan. I don't want to think about the cost to replace it, but, hopefully, when that time comes it will be "old technology" and a lot less expensive than it is right now.

The price to "replace" a Trotec tube isn't bad. I believe it was about $12-1500 for the 80W. It was inline with Universal. It's a swap program.

There may be many benefits to the ceramic tube but I wouldn't bet on longer life. The machine I demo'd was only a few years old with the ceramic tube and it didn't have that many hours on it according to the operator. It was a 100-120w unit that wasn't heavily used. The machine appeared to put out the suggested power rating but when doing "metal" plastic, it showed leaking. Regardless of manufacturer, 50w+ tubes don't seem to last as long as the 25-40W units. I'd expect the typical 3-5 years out of the 50w+ units and 5-10 years out of a 25-40w unit.

I have no doubts that the ceramic tube helps allow the Trotec run faster but I just wouldn't bet on longer life. If you do get longer life, I'd be more inclined to contribute it to the design of the machine (fan location, cleaner environment, better electronics, ect).

Scott Shepherd
07-31-2015, 1:27 PM
The machine appeared to put out the suggested power rating but when doing "metal" plastic, it showed leaking. Regardless of manufacturer, 50w+ tubes don't seem to last as long as the 25-40W units. I'd expect the typical 3-5 years out of the 50w+ units and 5-10 years out of a 25-40w unit.

I have no doubts that the ceramic tube helps allow the Trotec run faster but I just wouldn't bet on longer life. If you do get longer life, I'd be more inclined to contribute it to the design of the machine (fan location, cleaner environment, better electronics, ect).

Care to enlighten us on what indicates a "leaking tube" as shown on "metal" plastic?

Ross Moshinsky
07-31-2015, 2:49 PM
Care to enlighten us on what indicates a "leaking tube" as shown on "metal" plastic?

Vertical lines roughly .5" before and after a line of engraving. By metal plastic I mean gold/silver Rowmark/IPI plastic. Flexibrass or the equivalent is the best material to test on. When it just starts leaking, it won't show on other materials. When it gets bad, you'll start seeing it show up on all materials. Overall tube power will appear normal.

318703

Scott Shepherd
07-31-2015, 3:21 PM
Ross, that's a simple tickle adjustment, not a problem with the tube. I've had that on brass before, adjusted the tickle setting, it's gone. At least on the Trotec, it was. That wasn't a leak, that was an incorrect tickle setting. Some materials are really sensitive to it, as you know, brass being one of them.

I could solve that problem in about 30 seconds without replacing the tube. I've talked a number of people through it on the phone over the years.

Mike Null
07-31-2015, 5:07 PM
Ross

A "few years old" and ceramic tube don't go together. The ceramic tube is newer than that. Neither does $1500 for an exchange on a Trotec.

My current machine does not have a tickle setting but my ULS did and I agree with Scott. I had the same thing with Epilog years ago.

Steve Clarkson
07-31-2015, 5:49 PM
What's a "tickle setting" on an Epilog? I've never heard that term before.

Mark Sipes
07-31-2015, 5:55 PM
Here is a thread that discusses/addresses the Epilog settings.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?61090-Epilog-Laser-Trickle/page2

.

Jerome Stanek
07-31-2015, 5:56 PM
I bought my Trotec 400 80w at a trade show last fall. I had previously been researching the fusion 40 75w and the trotec 400 80w for about a year before the trade show. I had been quoted previously for both and the quotes were within a few hundred dollars of each other for as close to the same equipment as I could get. At the show I asked both companies about a show special. Epilog told me there were no show specials on the Fusion models. Trotec cut about $6000 of my quote and added in a few extras. Needless to say, I went with the trotec.

Boy if they can knock off $6000 and think nothing of it no wonder they don't want to post prices.

Kev Williams
07-31-2015, 6:28 PM
According to my Gravograph manual, tickle causes the laser to fire randomly when at rest, to keep the tube "warm and ready". To adjust, you run a test, and you'll get those 'leaks' like in Ross's pic. Several lines run during the test, each line is numbered, you pick the first line that no 'leaks' occured, and enter that into the driver...

I never saw the need for it. Especially since it would only tickle when the door is shut, and my door is hardly ever shut. I only had my LS900 a short time before I yanked the front door off so I could put large items in it. And along with the door went the safety interlock, and ever since then, my door being closed isn't necessary to fire the laser. And I REALLY don't want it firing while my fingers are under the lens doing a manual focus, so, for pretty much since I've owned it the tickle has been turned off.

And I'll assume being off doesn't hurt anything, this machine will be 11 years old in 3 months, and the laser hasn't lost a step...

Keith Winter
07-31-2015, 7:07 PM
Ross,

If the Trotec machine you demo'd was older than about three years it probably did not have the new ceramic tube. Take the time to investigate the new Trotec tubes, you might be surprised at the difference. There is a video on Trotec's web site about the new ceramic tubes but I couldn't find the link this morning.


100% ceramic CO2 laser source
Electrodes on the outside of the tube
No welded joints – reduced outgassing
Fired at 800oC, eliminating impurities inside of tube
Longer lifespan than other laser source at > 6 years



Keith I love Trotec but I'm not 100% in agreeance with your statement about the tubes. The jury is still out if ceramic tubes they are equal or better, less or more reliable. I had one bad ceramic tube about 9 months into the machine's life. Trotec handled it beautifully and quickly, but it is what it is, a relatively new technology in co2 lasers. The ceramic tubes simply have not been out long enough to verify this statement. That is the only part of your statement I disagree with, I think they make a fantastic machine and would recommend them to anyone. The Trotec build quality is second to none, the engrave speed is faster than the competition, and the software is light years beyond the competition.

Keith Winter
07-31-2015, 7:16 PM
Actually the Trotec does have something similar to the Epilog tickle setting if you are running the newer version of the software. It's under the Service > Service Settings on job control
Tickle delay (only CO2 laser systems): Should be increased if the stamp appearsblurred.
Tickle Power (only CO2 laser systems): Power required to excite the laser tubeand put it into standby mode


Ross

A "few years old" and ceramic tube don't go together. The ceramic tube is newer than that. Neither does $1500 for an exchange on a Trotec.

My current machine does not have a tickle setting but my ULS did and I agree with Scott. I had the same thing with Epilog years ago.

Tim Bateson
07-31-2015, 7:31 PM
I bought my Trotec 400 80w at a trade show last fall. I had previously been researching the fusion 40 75w and the trotec 400 80w for about a year before the trade show. I had been quoted previously for both and the quotes were within a few hundred dollars of each other for as close to the same equipment as I could get. At the show I asked both companies about a show special. Epilog told me there were no show specials on the Fusion models. Trotec cut about $6000 of my quote and added in a few extras. Needless to say, I went with the trotec.

Epilog salesman have all of the leverage to mark down machines to their cost. If this salesman wouldn't give you a ANY deal he/she was an idiot. I would have made the same choice you did. However my salesmen worked hard to keep my business and earned the sale of my Epilog M2. After a month of use I can easily say the old standard that Trotec is the best built machine, is no longer true. The Fusion M2 is every bit as good and likely better than Trotec offerings.

Keith Winter
07-31-2015, 7:45 PM
It's been my experience shows are always the best price, and ULS tends to have the best pricing of all if you press them. They made it mighty tempting on a 120 watt to switch last time, almost got me, but in the end I bought a Trotec 400. ;)


Epilog salesman have all of the leverage to mark down machines to their cost. If this salesman wouldn't give you a ANY deal he/she was an idiot. I would have made the same choice you did. However my salesmen worked hard to keep my business and earned the sale of my Epilog M2. After a month of use I can easily say the old standard that Trotec is the best built machine, is no longer true. The Fusion M2 is every bit as good and likely better than Trotec offerings.

Scott Shepherd
07-31-2015, 8:08 PM
After a month of use I can easily say the old standard that Trotec is the best built machine, is no longer true. The Fusion M2 is every bit as good and likely better than Trotec offerings.

That's just an uninformed comment. If you knew the issues that they are having with Fusions, you wouldn't make that comment. The software is also a hot mess. It's like 3 pieces of software that should work together but don't. Epilog loves to release things long before they are ready.

I'll put the Trotec camera up against the Epilog camera system any day, and I'll bet my machine against yours which one will win. One absolutely critical part of using a camera is allowing for print distortion. When just about anything is printing any any roll media, you have distortion from the material being stretched on the rolls, the weight of the roll of material, the heaters drying the material, and then laminating it. The Trotec camera system will measure the registration mark and adjust the cut file for the distortion. Any of the CNC routers, like ZUND, or MultiCam or anyone using the camera systems allow for that, since it's an issue widely known.

I asked Epilog "how does it adjust for print distortion" and I was told "What? What's that?". When I described it, I was told "Oh, you'd have to modify your file in Corel for that to be accounted for".

That's not "likely better than Trotec's offerings" by any stretch of the imagination.

Trotec's also not telling Speedy 300 and 400 owners to slow their machines down to 80% speed on rastering to keep from breaking belts.

Ask Epilog how many X Axis rails that they've replaced under warranty on the Fusions. Ask them how many motherboards they've replaced, or how many motors. Hint, the answer is more than a few.

Keith Winter
07-31-2015, 8:25 PM
And Steve drops the mic....and walks away :p


That's just an uninformed comment. If you knew the issues that they are having with Fusions, you wouldn't make that comment. The software is also a hot mess. It's like 3 pieces of software that should work together but don't. Epilog loves to release things long before they are ready.

I'll put the Trotec camera up against the Epilog camera system any day, and I'll bet my machine against yours which one will win. One absolutely critical part of using a camera is allowing for print distortion. When just about anything is printing any any roll media, you have distortion from the material being stretched on the rolls, the weight of the roll of material, the heaters drying the material, and then laminating it. The Trotec camera system will measure the registration mark and adjust the cut file for the distortion. Any of the CNC routers, like ZUND, or MultiCam or anyone using the camera systems allow for that, since it's an issue widely known.

I asked Epilog "how does it adjust for print distortion" and I was told "What? What's that?". When I described it, I was told "Oh, you'd have to modify your file in Corel for that to be accounted for".

That's not "likely better than Trotec's offerings" by any stretch of the imagination.

Trotec's also not telling Speedy 300 and 400 owners to slow their machines down to 80% speed on rastering to keep from breaking belts.

Ask Epilog how many X Axis rails that they've replaced under warranty on the Fusions. Ask them how many motherboards they've replaced, or how many motors. Hint, the answer is more than a few.

Jacob John
07-31-2015, 10:27 PM
Okay boys & girls, I'm about to pull the trigger on a Epilog fusion 40 75watt or a Trotec speedy 400 80 watt. I have read about each of them on the forum. I guess what I'm looking at is the pro & cons on both of them from your point of view...lol I fine that they are both great machines. I will be using them for glass & wood products ,plus we will be using the pull through doors alot. I have a 24 mini 40 watt.

Thanks Ron Sleeman

I cannot speak about Trotec's customer service, but Epilog's is really great. I purchased a pre-owned laser, and I thought that I might get some less than stellar customer service because I didn't go with a brand new machine. Nope, they were great and very accommodating as we had some initial issues finding the original registered owner's information so that we could transfer it into my name. So far, so good with Epilog.

Keith Outten
07-31-2015, 11:02 PM
It might be of interest to consider that the Trotec 80 watt machine has a ceramic tube which is the most advanced technology available today. Granted the ceramic tubes have not been around long enough to prove themselves but the technology may reduce the cost of ownership over the life of the machine dramatically. It would be prudent to check out the technology and if you believe it has value factor that into any decision to purchase. It is rare for people to discuss this technology here but it is worth the time to investigate the details, this is a very important component that can easily steer the decision to purchase in one direction or the other.

My Trotec Speedy 300 80 watt machine was one of the first that shipped with the new ceramic tube. Its over three years old and functions the same today as it did the day I received the machine. I hope that I can report the same performance level in ten years as the cost to replace an 80 watt tube is not chump change these days. I also recommend that anyone who is considering a new laser engraver inquire about the cost of tube replacement, this is not the kind of information that you want to find out later on when you need a new tube.

Keith W,

I did mention that the ceramic tubes are new and not a proven technology.
Of course my statement is based on sales to customers and I don't know how long these tubes have been tested in the lab.

Keith Outten
07-31-2015, 11:06 PM
Tony L,

Thanks for the link to the Trotec ceramic tube video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wt35m4pxdfA

Mike Null
08-01-2015, 8:26 AM
Keith W.

My Trotec has a Coherent 45w tube--no tickle setting. Other models do have the tickle setting.

Keith Winter
08-01-2015, 10:10 AM
My mistake Mike, I thought you were talking about the ceramic. Apologies for the confusion.

Tim Bateson
08-01-2015, 10:40 AM
I cannot speak about Trotec's customer service, but Epilog's is really great. I purchased a pre-owned laser, and I thought that I might get some less than stellar customer service because I didn't go with a brand new machine. Nope, they were great and very accommodating as we had some initial issues finding the original registered owner's information so that we could transfer it into my name. So far, so good with Epilog.

I 2nd this. Epilog could now be the best built machines on the market with 2nd to non Customer Support.

Scott Shepherd
08-01-2015, 11:02 AM
I 2nd this. Epilog could now be the best built machines on the market with 2nd to non Customer Support.

Back up your comments Tim. Tell me where, in any part of it, the Epilog is better built. Back it up with facts. It's perfectly acceptable to have your preferences, but preferences aren't facts. Tell me one thing in the build quality that is superior to the Trotec build. I think Epilog makes a good laser and I think they are a decent company. However, that doesn't change the facts. So tell us some facts on what's better and back it up.

Kev Williams
08-01-2015, 11:38 AM
C'mon Steve, he DID say "could be"... ;)

And I'll stop now before I hijack this thread with the red-headed stepchild of laser engravers...

http://www.engraver1.com/erase2/g.jpg

(oops) :)

Scott Shepherd
08-01-2015, 12:20 PM
C'mon Steve, he DID say "could be"... ;)

And I'll stop now before I hijack this thread with the red-headed stepchild of laser engravers...

http://www.engraver1.com/erase2/g.jpg

(oops) :)

:) No worries, if they are producing superior quality machines to anyone on the market, then enlighten us what is better so we can all consider then when we purchase our next laser(s). I'm familiar with the Fusion. I've worked on one briefly, trying to solve some issues, seen them apart a number of times now, looked closely at them at several trade shows now. I have yet to see one single thing that is superior in the build quality. Now, it might be superior in the build quality compared to a Helix, Mini, or Legend, but it's by no means better built than the Trotec. I'm also aware of their motor, motherboard, and X-Axis rail problems. If you're replacing entire X-Axis rail systems, you have an issue. If you're telling people to slow their machines down to 80% speed to keep from breaking them, there's an issue.

If their machine is fully tested and ready to go, then they wouldn't have to send two techs out to make the camera work, and then crash your machine while doing it. If that's what "Superior Customer Service" looks like, I think I'll take a pass on it.

Tim Bateson
08-01-2015, 2:33 PM
Didn't mean to get folks fired up...

After studying both of these newer machines (Fusion M2/Trotec Flexx) for a couple months, and getting heavy sales pressure, and detailed demos from both... Both machines did meet my expectations. Because for years now it has been assumed that Trotec was better built and HAD the Flexx been priced better I would likely have bought it The ONLY thing the Flexx had over Epilog was a slightly larger bed, however for $9k more and none of the extras I got with the M2, it was an easy decision. Unless someone uses both side my side on a daily bases, for an extended period of time, we may never know.


...Now, it might be superior in the build quality compared to a Helix, Mini, or Legend.....

I agree 100% with that statement. Now considering your statement and what my Mini has been through (most here have heard the horror story of it's delivery) and the fact that it's been a production beast - only failing when I failed it - The new Fusion M2 has got to be one of the best machines on the market - my opinion, but will soon be backed up as others use it. This version of the Fusion has only been on the market since March, so too early to say for sure, but looking good.

vic casware
08-02-2015, 7:26 PM
I'm pretty happy with my Fusion 40. It's only been a month but it's brilliant, no issues no glitches
yeah the softwares a bit funny but very good and i do still love my Helix too
even though i did have a couple of tube issues, but yes Epilog sorted those out smartly even from
half way round the world.

Raphael Weil
10-03-2015, 10:56 AM
I actually decided to go Trotec almost entirely because of this thread (and 2 others). I can't even get the rep to reply to my emails. Starting to look a lot like it's going to be Epilog for me.

Ross Moshinsky
10-03-2015, 11:04 AM
I actually decided to go Trotec almost entirely because of this thread (and 2 others). I can't even get the rep to reply to my emails. Starting to look a lot like it's going to be Epilog for me.

Emails for sales reps are often not the best way to communicate. They are on the road a lot and can't exactly respond while driving. If you want to talk to a sales rep, you're best off calling them. If they don't respond, call up the main office and tell them you've tried to call and can't get anywhere. Tell them you want to speak directly with someone in the office or have the sales rep call you ASAP. Trotec doesn't want to hear they are losing out on sales because of a lazy rep. They will step in and try to fix the problem.

Sometimes you have to be pushy to get what you want. More often than not you don't talk to your sales rep much after buying your machine. If you have a tech question you call the 1800 number. Their job is only to sell the machines. A good sales rep will offer more, but they are few and far between in this industry. Even guys with years of experience are often not that knowledgeable on the technical side of things.

Scott Shepherd
10-03-2015, 11:15 AM
Sometimes you have to be pushy to get what you want. More often than not you don't talk to your sales rep much after buying your machine. If you have a tech question you call the 1800 number. Their job is only to sell the machines. A good sales rep will offer more, but they are few and far between in this industry. Even guys with years of experience are often not that knowledgeable on the technical side of things.

That's my view as well. We've talked about it many times. I pick the machine that's best for our needs. I couldn't care less who's between me and that machine. My job is to put the machine on our floor. I wouldn't take a #2 or #3 choice in my selection because a sales rep didn't call me back. That could mean a lot of lost revenue over the life of the machine. Why would I let a sales rep screw up my bottom line? (hint: I wouldn't)

We're in the market for a piece of equipment now. We've narrowed it down to 2 manufacturers, both global companies. I called the USA number to ask a couple of questions I had before going to a demo so I'd be more informed when I saw the demo. The person was very nice, told me she'd contact the area rep and get him to call me back. I explained I needed him to call me back that day or the next day because I was comparing machines the following day. She said she'd make sure he got that message. That was 3 weeks ago. Still haven't heard from him or anyone in his company. Did it change my opinion of the machine to buy? Nope.

Jerome Stanek
10-03-2015, 11:30 AM
Emails for sales reps are often not the best way to communicate. They are on the road a lot and can't exactly respond while driving. If you want to talk to a sales rep, you're best off calling them. If they don't respond, call up the main office and tell them you've tried to call and can't get anywhere. Tell them you want to speak directly with someone in the office or have the sales rep call you ASAP. Trotec doesn't want to hear they are losing out on sales because of a lazy rep. They will step in and try to fix the problem.

Sometimes you have to be pushy to get what you want. More often than not you don't talk to your sales rep much after buying your machine. If you have a tech question you call the 1800 number. Their job is only to sell the machines. A good sales rep will offer more, but they are few and far between in this industry. Even guys with years of experience are often not that knowledgeable on the technical side of things.

no excuse for not getting back and putting you in touch with someone that can help just poor business policies

Mike Null
10-03-2015, 11:44 AM
Old sales rep talk--"a bird in hand is worth two in the bush". If the rep, who is certainly traveling, is closing a deal or making a demo in anticipation of closing the deal then communication becomes a simple matter of pecking order. I agree that a phone call carries more urgency than an email.

The reps are busy for a reason--Trotec is the hot machine on the market!

Don't give up on the Trotec machine it'll be worth your while.

Matt McCoy
10-03-2015, 11:56 AM
That's my view as well. We've talked about it many times. I pick the machine that's best for our needs. I couldn't care less who's between me and that machine. My job is to put the machine on our floor. I wouldn't take a #2 or #3 choice in my selection because a sales rep didn't call me back. That could mean a lot of lost revenue over the life of the machine. Why would I let a sales rep screw up my bottom line? (hint: I wouldn't)

We're in the market for a piece of equipment now. We've narrowed it down to 2 manufacturers, both global companies. I called the USA number to ask a couple of questions I had before going to a demo so I'd be more informed when I saw the demo. The person was very nice, told me she'd contact the area rep and get him to call me back. I explained I needed him to call me back that day or the next day because I was comparing machines the following day. She said she'd make sure he got that message. That was 3 weeks ago. Still haven't heard from him or anyone in his company. Did it change my opinion of the machine to buy? Nope.

Great advice.

Ross Moshinsky
10-03-2015, 12:03 PM
no excuse for not getting back and putting you in touch with someone that can help just poor business policies

Bad business practices is putting your sales reps in a position where they can't manage doing demos/sales calls and returning calls/emails. Bad business is sending out sales reps that can't give you a proper demo.

It's part of the life of a sales rep to sometimes miss an email or phone call. Some may even go as far to say it's filtering out people that aren't serious buyers.

Raphael Weil
10-03-2015, 12:31 PM
Not sure why I'd ever want to work with a company where the guy in charge of the whole territory can't reply over weeks (and several emails from me). I'm not even asking for a quick reply, just a reply. Leaves a pretty bad taste in your mouth. Still I'll pick up a phone and see what they're saying.

Gary Hair
10-03-2015, 12:54 PM
I was in your boat not too long ago. I was very excited to find out more about Trotec and had an impossible time getting a rep to contact me. I won't go into details as it might get someone in trouble, but I found a fantastic rep and ended up getting an amazing deal on my machine. I can tell you this - you will be happy with the machine! Some say the rep isn't as important as the company/machine, but I have interacted with mine a few times and can tell you that he knows his product! Contact the company directly and tell them you are buying a machine and want it to be theirs but the area rep isn't making that happen and if they can't then you'll buy another brand. I'm pretty sure they will find someone who will talk with you.


I actually decided to go Trotec almost entirely because of this thread (and 2 others). I can't even get the rep to reply to my emails. Starting to look a lot like it's going to be Epilog for me.

Scott Shepherd
10-03-2015, 1:44 PM
Not sure why I'd ever want to work with a company where the guy in charge of the whole territory can't reply over weeks (and several emails from me). I'm not even asking for a quick reply, just a reply. Leaves a pretty bad taste in your mouth. Still I'll pick up a phone and see what they're saying.

Because the machine fits your needs and will make you the most money?

If machine A is capable of producing 100 sq. ft. per hour at $10 per sq. ft. retail price and machine B is capable of producing 60 sq. ft. per hour at $10 per sq. ft retail price. Why would you buy machine B to put in your business just because someone didn't return your call? I've had numerous times where a sales rep wouldn't return my call. That didn't stop me from buying the machine I wanted. It just stopped me from buying it from that sales rep. If I followed the other logic path, I'd be giving up a LOT of money and productivity, all because some commission based sales rep didn't call me back?

Jerome Stanek
10-03-2015, 2:42 PM
Bad business practices is putting your sales reps in a position where they can't manage doing demos/sales calls and returning calls/emails. Bad business is sending out sales reps that can't give you a proper demo.

It's part of the life of a sales rep to sometimes miss an email or phone call. Some may even go as far to say it's filtering out people that aren't serious buyers.


My emails don't just disappear you can always reply when you get a chance not just ignore them. That is what I am calling bad business. If he is giving that many demos where he can't answer then he should pass it along.

Jeanette Brewer
10-03-2015, 2:42 PM
FWIW, there are extremely busy sales reps who still answer emails and/or phone calls in a very timely manner and, frankly, you should expect it. There are sales reps/distributors who actually will be there for you throughout the lifespan of your laser & beyond and their customer service should figure into your decision.

[Totally biased comment from a busy sales rep/distributor office.]

Jerome Stanek
10-03-2015, 2:44 PM
Because the machine fits your needs and will make you the most money?

If machine A is capable of producing 100 sq. ft. per hour at $10 per sq. ft. retail price and machine B is capable of producing 60 sq. ft. per hour at $10 per sq. ft retail price. Why would you buy machine B to put in your business just because someone didn't return your call? I've had numerous times where a sales rep wouldn't return my call. That didn't stop me from buying the machine I wanted. It just stopped me from buying it from that sales rep. If I followed the other logic path, I'd be giving up a LOT of money and productivity, all because some commission based sales rep didn't call me back?

It will only work for you if you can buy it

Scott Shepherd
10-03-2015, 3:28 PM
It will only work for you if you can buy it

You can buy it, but I wouldn't discount a machine because some slacker sales rep who's riding his time until his next sales jig presents itself to him and he/she leaves for another entire industry. I see most of them for what they are, in a position that turns over fairly often. We've bought 4 lasers now and only 1 of the 4 sales people are still there.

I have zero issues bypassing a sales rep and going to the manufacturer and working down the chain, rather than trying to work up the chain from some slacker who's in Bass Pro Shop during the day when he's supposed to be trying to help customers. We don't buy on the sales rep, we buy on the equipment and our needs. It's really not that difficult. However, if I sat by the phone waiting for it to ring with a call back, we'd be in an empty building.

Ron Sleeman
10-03-2015, 4:52 PM
The rep for Trotec, from Vancouver, called me up & said he will be in my area. Which is 6 hour from my house & brought with him a demo machine to show me. He set it up in my shop & went over everything with me, I do have a Epilog so I new what to look for. Now that was service. Then 2 weeks later I went to the office in Langley & Travis there tec, went through with me some other part off the machine with me. That is what sold me on them, plus the way the speedy 400 ran..whow. I beleave service & machine go in hand & hand. So if your rep does not work for you, your going to have a hard time with service. Plus the price was great.

Remember, this only my views......lol

Kev Williams
10-03-2015, 8:07 PM
Because the machine fits your needs and will make you the most money?

If machine A is capable of producing 100 sq. ft. per hour at $10 per sq. ft. retail price and machine B is capable of producing 60 sq. ft. per hour at $10 per sq. ft retail price. Why would you buy machine B to put in your business just because someone didn't return your call? I've had numerous times where a sales rep wouldn't return my call. That didn't stop me from buying the machine I wanted.

I could say something about another machine brand here, but.... ;)

(all in good fun)

Scott Shepherd
10-03-2015, 8:44 PM
I could say something about another machine brand here, but.... ;)

(all in good fun)

Yeah, but that's a mythical machine Kev, you know no one's ever seen one in person ;) LOL

I did say the one that fits your business, that one doesn't fit our business :D

Keith Outten
10-03-2015, 11:00 PM
You guys have to know that we have a Trotec Representative (Meredith Newman) from the corporate office right here at The Creek, in fact she's the national sales manager. It couldn't be easier to contact Trotec and get a very quick response, you can send her an email or a Private Message. If you send me a PM and ask I can provide her phone number AND remind you to ask her about the SawMIll Creek Discount.

Use the force Luke :)
.

Keith Winter
10-04-2015, 12:29 AM
I'm with Steve on this. Don't let an overly busy sales rep dissuade you from Trotec. I'm told it's been a very busy year over there but they are expanding the sales force every week, even adding techs in house for some regions beyond the main us office, giving you two ways to get support after the sale. Another idea is to visit a show near you, plenty of sales reps at those shows. The head of sales and president of the company were even at the last one I attended. A great way to meet multiple people from the company, and see all the machines in person.

Rich Kruyer
10-04-2015, 10:23 AM
I just went through the same process Epilog/Trotec. Ended up going with Trotec Speedy 360 80 watt. Have not received my machine as of yet.

Jack Clague
10-04-2015, 5:41 PM
I have a thread on my experience, I was going to go Epilog but also ended up with a Speedy 300 80 Watt, and tell you what, I am still pleased in my decision