Advice on an antique lathe

[Jeff Spaulding]

I picked up this antique lathe from an auction recently, and I want to learn to turn on it. I'm aware this is probably not the recommended way to learn to turn. Please excuse me (and by all means, correct me) if I get any terminology wrong.

This is a Chicago Machinery Exchange #2 lathe. It looks an awful lot like the one in their 1919 catalog on vintagemachinery.org.

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It's currently in storage until I can make room for it in my shop (I'm ballparking it at ten feet long, and I'm in a narrow 1930s era 1-car garage), hence why it's disassembled in the pictures.

So, my questions:

It's got pink goop in the greasepots above the bushings. Anyone know what that stuff is? I'm assuming I fill the pots and then close the lid to squeeze the grease into the bushings, but I'm not a machinery guy and haven't worked with this stuff before. Any advice would be very welcome.

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I have no idea what taper (if any, but it looks tapered inside) the headstock has. The original was sold with two faceplates (which I have) and two drives (which I do not have). There's a bevel just inside the spindle. By crude measurement (using a rusty old pair of lathe calipers that came with it), the diameter just past that bevel is about 5/8". Any ideas? I don't know any lathe guys, and that headstock probably weighs 100lbs, so taking it to someone will be difficult. I was thinking, if the spindle is hollow all the way through (I see no light but it might just be clogged with sawdust), I might be able to put plaster in there and then take the plaster to a machine shop to compare with their tapers. This nagging voice in the back of my head is telling me that's a stupid idea, though.

I haven't checked the tailstock. It's a bit hard to get to where it is right now. If it's tapered as well, would it have been common practice at the time for the tapers on the headstock and tailstock to match? Also, this knob on top - locking knob, or something else? I can't reach under it to check if there's a lever on the other side.

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The 1919 catalog suggests the lathe be powered with 1-3HP. The motor on it is 3/4HP. This thing has a pretty decent swing - should I scrounge up a more powerful motor? The guy who used to own this apparently used it as is, but I have no idea what he used it for. Is 3/4HP sufficient? Would it be worth my time to upgrade? I'm not sure what I'll be turning on it yet.

Any significance to the wheel on the back of the headstock? It's got four holes in it. It's not crowned for a belt, and in any case the wooden stepped pulley is original to the lathe. The thing is huge. I'm wondering if was meant to double as a behind-the-head faceplate.

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The long toolrest has a broken leg on it. It's cast iron. I figure it's probably hopeless, but if anyone knows a way I could fix it, let me know. I don't know much about metal.

This lathe appears to have been in working condition when I bought it. I'd like to keep it that way. While I'm not planning on selling it, I'd like to keep it as original as I can, although I'm open to suggestions for useful modifications. Mostly I just want to be able to use it without doing something stupid and destroying a beautiful antique.

Any advice is more than welcome.

[Doug Ladendorf]

That s cool vintage wood-bed lathe you scored. Just know you have some restoration to do before turning. That's OK though and many of us do that. You might also check out the Old Woodworking Machines forum for experience there. Whomever put that pink goop in had no idea what they were doing. Those are oil cups for the bearings. Can you show close up photos of the headstock and tail stock taper? If you are lucky they are MT2 or MT3 for which you can get plenty of accessories. The other thing to measure is the size of the arbor thread under the faceplate.

Doug

Oh, and you could get it running on the motor while looking for something bigger. 2HP is probably fine.

[Dwight Rutherford]

Can't give specific help but I have a 100 year old metal lathe and it has grease cups like yours for the Babbitt bearings. Grease comes in different colors. They are not for oil!

[Ryan Mooney]

Technically the cup is a grease cup (screw cap) but its not what's supposed to be there, Doug is right that it should be an oiler setup not grease - google search for "babbitt lube" to get some useful data. Something like Green Velvet Medium http://www.steamenginelube.com/orders/GV-1-order.html probably wouldn't spray to horribly. I'd probably also pull the headstock apart if its not to frozen and clean it up and put some packing into the (likely) hole in the bottom of the babbitt as well.. but that starts to be a big project, simpler would be to just wash the grease out, replace the cup and add an oiler cup with a wick and call it a day. Sometimes when you pull stuff like this apart you find lots of things you didn't want to know... I would check the spindle for slop and runout though, and decide what to do once you've checked that out.. more complex re-mediation may be required.

I'd keep the motor you have for now, it'll be fine (unless its to fast) until you can find something else. Eventually a nice upgrade would be a 3 phase motor plus a VFD to get you variable speed. I wouldn't personally bother with anything less.

Hard to say on the taper without fitting one in place, if you = http://littlemachineshop com/reference/tapers.php (replace spaces with the appropriate as per site TOS).
I'd be tempted to get a spur center with an mt2 taper (like http://www amazon com/PSI-Woodworking-LCENTSS22-1-Inch-Center/dp/B000KICD52 ) and some layout fluid (like http://www amazon com/Dykem-80300-Steel-Layout-Brush-/dp/B0018ACR6G ) and see how well it mated in the taper. If you're lucky that's all there is to it, if not you're out $20 you can probably reclaim most of by reselling the taper to someone. I would bet both tapers are the same, I wouldn't bet on them being standard.. but you might be lucky.

The knob on top of the tailstock locks the spindle from moving in/out. Hopefully its not all frozen in place..

The wheel on the back of the headstock is mostly likely a user added hand wheel - useful for turning the workpiece with the lathe motor off to check it over or sand or .. etc..

You can get a new post brazed onto the toolrest, look for someone who does silicon bronze brazing like : https://www youtube com/watch?v=y6ccw7X8zeI
whether its worth it or not depends on your local market.. but its a pretty simple braze job so shouldn't be to bad.


Oh and - cool lathe!!

[Ryan Mooney]

Can't give specific help but I have a 100 year old metal lathe and it has grease cups like yours for the Babbitt bearings. Grease comes in different colors. They are not for oil!

My naive understanding was grease for ~200rpm and less and oilers for more (usually anyway). The question here is if the grease cup was original or if someone somewhere along the way got tired of it slinging oil and replaced the original oilers with a grease cup. My vote is that its a replacement.. but not actually positive...

[Jeff Spaulding]

Wow, great responses. I walk off to make dinner and come back to four replies.

I don't have any pictures of the headstock or tailstock taper. I might be going back out there tonight, though, and if so I'll take some.

This is the closest I've got:

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I know morse tapers existed for a while before this lathe was built. I'm hoping I get lucky too :).

Oh, and the thread is 1 1/8" outside the thread. Didn't have a ruler with me so I put a crescent wrench on it and measured it at home. I'll bring one with me tonight when I go back out there and find out the TPI.

The grease cups look like the headstock in the catalog. Here's the catalog: http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/174/2120.pdf. It's on page 27. I'm not sure what you mean by "slop" and "runout," but the spindle does move about 1/16" along its axis. I'd rather not take it apart until I get it in my workshop, though... I know me, I'd lose something vital. Nothing is locked up - I spun everything and turned everything before I bought it, I just don't remember what that knob on the back did. You're probably right about it being the lock, though.

VFD would be nice. I don't have the budget for it for the foreseeable future, though. I was thinking of getting an actual leather belt, turning a pulley to mount above the lathe, and running it old school. Eyeballing the size of the motor pulley and the stepped pulley, I'd guess max speed is about the motor speed (1750), and it goes slower from there. A matching stepped pulley mounted above might give me more speed options.

The wheel doesn't look like the one in the catalog, so I'm betting you're right about it being a replacement.

I had no idea you could braze cast iron. Actually, yes I did - I've got a couple planes that have been brazed... DUH! Thanks for the tip, I'll look into that.

[Don Bunce]

I have a lathe that looks virtually identical to yours, although it has no markings on it. It has a swing of 26", the spindle has a 2 1/4" x 4 1/2 thread, RH on the inboard side, LH on the outboard end. It has a No.3 Morse taper.

Mine has the same grease cups, I tried oil and it all ran out, so I filled them with grease. There is no slop in the bearings.

You will want to disassemble the headstock, and remove all the old grease and other crud. Keep track of any shims on the bearing covers, and reassemble them the same as they came off. Mine had many layers of paint, so I stripped it to bare metal, primed, and painted.

My 3 legged outboard tool rest looks identical to the one pictured in the catalog also.

I have a 1 HP motor on mine, which has worked fine, although I haven't roughed out any 3' logs on it. A 3 HP VFD would be the way to go.

The small tailstock is from a Rockwell/Delta 12" heavy duty wood lathe for size comparison.

[Bob Bergstrom]

I have a lathe that looks virtually identical to yours, although it has no markings on it. It has a swing of 26", the spindle has a 2 1/4" x 4 1/2 thread, RH on the inboard side, LH on the outboard end. It has a No.3 Morse taper.

Mine has the same grease cups, I tried oil and it all ran out, so I filled them with grease. There is no slop in the bearings.

You will want to disassemble the headstock, and remove all the old grease and other crud. Keep track of any shims on the bearing covers, and reassemble them the same as they came off. Mine had many layers of paint, so I stripped it to bare metal, primed, and painted.

My 3 legged outboard tool rest looks identical to the one pictured in the catalog also.

I have a 1 HP motor on mine, which has worked fine, although I haven't roughed out any 3' logs on it. A 3 HP VFD would be the way to go.

The small tailstock is from a Rockwell/Delta 12" heavy duty wood lathe for size comparison.

Don is that your backup if your 3520 can't cut it? Great job cleaning her up!

[Jeff Spaulding]

It does look very similar. The tailstock's a bit different, but my tailstock is where "Chicago Machine Exchange" is cast. Strangely, your tailstock has the lever shown in the catalog, where mine has a knob. Of course, the knob may not be original.

I wish I had the lathe here, it would make things so much easier. Have to rub down the finish on my cabinet and get it out of my shop first.

I just measured the threads - 1 1/8", 10TPI. Went on Nova's site, thinking since they're so popular, they'd have an insert for my spindle thread if anyone did. Nope. Have to get a blank and get it machined...

How do you like working on the old lathe? I've never used a lathe at all, so I'm interested in hearing an experienced turner's impression.

Edit: forgot to mention, the spindle isn't hollow. It goes back about four inches. Not sure if that means anything, taper-wise.

[Doug Ladendorf]

Interesting information about the cups. I have always seen oil used for babbitt, but it does need a wick to regulate release.

There is a company that makes adapters for odd sizes like these old machines. I will try to find a link. You could get an adapter for 1 1/8" x 10 tpi - 1 1/4"x 8 tpi for common tooling. Also Vicmark makes a vacuum chuck adapter that does not require a shaft through the spindle. May be handy in the future.

Edit: I believe this is it. Try giving them a call.
http://bestwoodtools.stores.yahoo.net/prstspadwith.html

[Brian Myers]

It does look very similar. The tailstock's a bit different, but my tailstock is where "Chicago Machine Exchange" is cast. Strangely, your tailstock has the lever shown in the catalog, where mine has a knob. Of course, the knob may not be original.

I wish I had the lathe here, it would make things so much easier. Have to rub down the finish on my cabinet and get it out of my shop first.

I just measured the threads - 1 1/8", 10TPI. Went on Nova's site, thinking since they're so popular, they'd have an insert for my spindle thread if anyone did. Nope. Have to get a blank and get it machined...

How do you like working on the old lathe? I've never used a lathe at all, so I'm interested in hearing an experienced turner's impression.

Edit: forgot to mention, the spindle isn't hollow. It goes back about four inches. Not sure if that means anything, taper-wise.



That spindle is an odd one neither Vicmarc nor Oneway list an insert in that size and they both do a good number of inserts for their chucks. The 1-1/8" size seems to be 7,8 or 12 tpi for chuck inserts.

[Jeff Spaulding]

Thanks for the link - I was planning on just ordering a blank from Nova and having a local machine shop cut it to my threads, but your option might be better - especially if I don't have a standard taper. Either way, it'd make it easier to put different chucks on.

The only thing I'm worried there is the threads - if they're nonstandard threads, I might end up buying an expensive paperweight.

I figure what I'll do is pull the tailstock out from where it's at and get the center out of it, then test it against the headstock. If it matches, I'll take the center and a faceplate to a machine shop and see if anyone can identify the thread and taper. Maybe they could also tell me what the pink goop in the greasepots is - proper lubrication is my biggest worry at this point.

I might jump over to the vintage tools forum and ask about the lubrication options... the guy who owned this before was a dentist, not a machinist, and he had a delta lathe in addition to this old one. He might not be the best authority on lubrication. I can't ask him because he's no longer with us. It's a pity - I saw some examples of his work at the estate sale, and he did some great stuff.

Anything special about wicks I need to know about? Materials to use, etc.? Do they even use anything like this anymore?

[Doug Ladendorf]

Did the pink stuff smell like bubble gum? Maybe it was some of that tooth polish they use...

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Thanks for the link - I was planning on just ordering a blank from Nova and having a local machine shop cut it to my threads, but your option might be better - especially if I don't have a standard taper. Either way, it'd make it easier to put different chucks on.

The only thing I'm worried there is the threads - if they're nonstandard threads, I might end up buying an expensive paperweight.

I figure what I'll do is pull the tailstock out from where it's at and get the center out of it, then test it against the headstock. If it matches, I'll take the center and a faceplate to a machine shop and see if anyone can identify the thread and taper. Maybe they could also tell me what the pink goop in the greasepots is - proper lubrication is my biggest worry at this point.

I might jump over to the vintage tools forum and ask about the lubrication options... the guy who owned this before was a dentist, not a machinist, and he had a delta lathe in addition to this old one. He might not be the best authority on lubrication. I can't ask him because he's no longer with us. It's a pity - I saw some examples of his work at the estate sale, and he did some great stuff.

Anything special about wicks I need to know about? Materials to use, etc.? Do they even use anything like this anymore?

Oneway does special thread adaptors for their chucks, link here

http://oneway.ca/index.php?route=product/search&search=special%20thread

Morse taper or other standard types of tapers are available, but the Morse taper is the most common one used in lathe spindles, a link for sizes here

http://littlemachineshop.com/reference/tapers.php

As for your grease pots, I’ve worked with them, the cap is filled with grease (general automotive chassis grease is fine), and the cap is screed down till grease shows in the gaps on the outside of the bearings, then every few hours you hive the cap a twist to add some new grease into the bearings, in the old days they didn’t have or use special grease in these machines I would not be to worried about that, the machines are tough as that’s how they were build.

It seems the thought is there are babit bearings in there, but some used bronze bearings and even just cast iron was used as a bearing material, there is nothing bad going to happen opening the bearing caps here, there might be shims between the two bearing halves, make sure you keep them together for each side, so you have the same ones going back in the same place when you reassemble it again.

Wicks are only used with oil, and I am quite sure there are no wicks in there.

Take it apart, clean it out (though the grease is probably still just fine) and make some pictures to show what you really have, as now it is all guessing.

[Jeff Spaulding]

Thanks, Leo. It's good to have advice on the grease from someone who has worked with this kind of machine. Keeping it in working condition is my #1 priority. When I get it moved, I'll do like you say and open it up and clean it out and see what's in there. When I start using it, I'll have to remember to make greasing the bearings part of my routine.

I dug out the stuff in front of the tailstock and pulled it out. The good news is that the headstock and tailstock seem to have the same taper. The bad news is the live center that was in the tailstock doesn't fit. It sticks about halfway out.

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(Please excuse the flash - it was after dark and there's no electricity out there.)

Going by what I measured (5/8"), I'm going to guess it's a Jarno #5 taper. That's just a guess, though. It seems to fit the time period, and there's a lot of dead centers for those on ebay that had to come from somewhere.

I'll probably go with my original plan of putting something in the taper to measure it. Not plaster though - both tapers bottom out, so plaster would be hard to remove intact. Besides, the tailstock weighs a ton and I'm not comfortable trying to get it to stand on the wheel on a concrete floor - it'd be just my luck to drop it and crack it in half.

While I do like the fact that it's an antique machine, I'm awfully tempted to have both sides reamed to 2MT. It'd really simplify things for me.

Here's some better pictures of the tailstock, now that I've dug it out:

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The knob is indeed the locking knob. It works fine. One thing I noticed - if I back the tailstock in all the way, the wheel keeps going but the tailstock starts turning. When that happens, you can't make it come back out without tightening the top knob. I found this out accidentally - I've seen videos where people eject their centers by retracting the tailstock all the way. That didn't work for me (must be a feature on newer lathes - the tailstock only retracts so that it's flush with the casing), but a couple light taps with that clamp sitting next to it popped it out fine.

[Jeff Spaulding]

Did the pink stuff smell like bubble gum? Maybe it was some of that tooth polish they use...

Heh, that'd be funny. But no, it doesn't smell strongly of anything. I'm a smoker so my sense of smell is practically dead, though.

Heads up: the rest of this post is rather off-topic - nothing to do with this lathe specifically, but more about the guy that used to own it.

The dentist was an interesting guy, judging by what I saw of his home and shop. He had a shop that Marc Spagnolo would drool over. He also did stone carving in addition to woodworking. If only I had brought more money with me, I'd have been able to pick up some really nice stuff - I walked out of there with an air compressor (hole in the tank, but it was $20, and the motor and compressor work), a bunch of wood, this lathe, a couple rabbit planes, and some non-tool-related stuff for pretty cheap. There were some ebay resellers there, though, and it's hard to justify the cost to outbid them when you're planning on using rather than reselling. I was bidding on a box of slicks and chisels that would have resold for at least $2000, but lost to a reseller. The same guy also won the Delta lathe, which was what I was originally there for.

This wasn't the only vintage machine. He had a lot of antique dentist equipment (we're talking Painless Parker era stuff) and a gigantic cast iron bandsaw from (I'm guessing) the 30s. It was so big that it only sold for $50 - no one wanted to move it.

It doesn't look like he did metalwork, but I'm guessing he knew enough about machinery to use proper lubrication. I'm still going to follow Leo's advice and clean it all out and use automotive grease, though.

Wish I could have talked to him before he died. I'm betting he took a lot of hard-earned wisdom with him.

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Thanks, Leo. It's good to have advice on the grease from someone who has worked with this kind of machine. Keeping it in working condition is my #1 priority. When I get it moved, I'll do like you say and open it up and clean it out and see what's in there. When I start using it, I'll have to remember to make greasing the bearings part of my routine.

I dug out the stuff in front of the tailstock and pulled it out. The good news is that the headstock and tailstock seem to have the same taper. The bad news is the live center that was in the tailstock doesn't fit. It sticks about halfway out.

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(Please excuse the flash - it was after dark and there's no electricity out there.)

Going by what I measured (5/8"), I'm going to guess it's a Jarno #5 taper. That's just a guess, though. It seems to fit the time period, and there's a lot of dead centers for those on ebay that had to come from somewhere.

I'll probably go with my original plan of putting something in the taper to measure it. Not plaster though - both tapers bottom out, so plaster would be hard to remove intact. Besides, the tailstock weighs a ton and I'm not comfortable trying to get it to stand on the wheel on a concrete floor - it'd be just my luck to drop it and crack it in half.

While I do like the fact that it's an antique machine, I'm awfully tempted to have both sides reamed to 2MT. It'd really simplify things for me.

Here's some better pictures of the tailstock, now that I've dug it out:

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The knob is indeed the locking knob. It works fine. One thing I noticed - if I back the tailstock in all the way, the wheel keeps going but the tailstock starts turning. When that happens, you can't make it come back out without tightening the top knob. I found this out accidentally - I've seen videos where people eject their centers by retracting the tailstock all the way. That didn't work for me (must be a feature on newer lathes - the tailstock only retracts so that it's flush with the casing), but a couple light taps with that clamp sitting next to it popped it out fine.

If you have the tapers machined, I’d have the spindles drilled through, small extra job that will make live much simpler using the lathe, on the headstock spindle you could use a vacuum chuck and also use a drawbar to hold a drill chuck in the spindle.

In the tailstock it will make removal of the drill chuck or centers easy with a knockout bar, although a short piece of pipe placed on the shaft before you install the center can be used to remove the center when retracting it, as it will jamb between the housing and the center forcing the center out.

You will have to find out what kind of taper the live center is first, before doing any changes, does the fit of the taper feel right for the part that does go into the spindle ??

The tailstock shaft should have a groove in it to prevent it from turning around, I think the knob has to go into the groove, maybe remove the shaft and the knob to find if that is indeed the right piece and fitting into a groove as I suspect there is.
Good luck with your endeavor 318601

[Jeff Spaulding]

That's the first I've heard of a drawbar. I had to look it up. I guess it just shows how much I have to learn.

It certainly looks useful. I'll try to find a machine shop in the next couple days and talk to them about it.

One thing though: there's a hole on the other side of the spindle that's clogged with sawdust. It's not very large - maybe a quarter of an inch? It doesn't go through and I don't know if it's threaded or not. My machine isn't horribly decorative, so it has to be there for a reason (even if it was a result of the manufacturing process). Does anyone here know what it could be for? I don't want to drill it out and then find out it was actually used for something important.

The live center feels tight in the spindle. Doing some napkin math tells me that an MT2 taper would have a little over 1 1/2" between the gauge line and the 5/8" mark. Add another 1/4" past the gauge mark (according to wikipedia) and that seems to match what I remember. I don't know that it actually is tight behind the taper, though - it felt snug, but I didn't wiggle it a whole lot, either. Morse tapers aren't all the same, apparently, but a MT2 is really close to the same taper as a Jarno (20 thou per foot more taper for the morse), except it starts a bit larger. Of course, the idea that the existing taper is a Jarno is just conjecture at this point.

Considering how heavy the lathe is (I had to lift the tongue of my trailer so the back was on the ground while two people lifted the lathe the couple inches to get it onto the trailer bed - and that's with the tailstock already removed), I might as well go ahead and remove the headstock next time I'm out there - it'll make things easier on everybody, and allow me to take both to a machine shop. I'll post what they say after I talk to them - hopefully in the next couple days.

[Ryan Mooney]

One thing though: there's a hole on the other side of the spindle that's clogged with sawdust. It's not very large - maybe a quarter of an inch? It doesn't go through and I don't know if it's threaded or not. My machine isn't horribly decorative, so it has to be there for a reason (even if it was a result of the manufacturing process). Does anyone here know what it could be for? I don't want to drill it out and then find out it was actually used for something important.

Straight up guessing here but its possible that its part of a spindle lock (assuming its on the headstock spindle)? I'd pick out the sawdust with a dental pick and see what's inside :D

[Jeff Spaulding]

Well, took the headstock and tailstock apart yesterday.

Leo was right - there's no bearings in there, or even bronze bushings. It just spins in the cast iron.

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And here's the groove in the tailstock he predicted.

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I took it to a couple machine shops yesterday. No one in town has a morse taper reamer. I am having one of them braze the broken tool rest, though.

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I'll see if any of the machine shops in the neighboring towns have any. I'm not holding my breath, though. I might end up having to take it to Oklahoma City.

[David DeCristoforo]

Not spinning in the cast iron. That's babbitt. Search the web for "pouring babbitt". There's lots of tutorials and videos on the subject.

[Jason Edwards]

It has babbit bearings. Babbit is a lead-tin alloy that is just about the same color as the cast iron. It is melted and poured in and then machined to size You can see the babbit on a few of the pictures. Used to be very common but now only done by specialists. Lasts forever if properly lubricated. Don't run it at modern speeds though, keep it under 1800 RPM or so. You'll want oil at those speeds, not grease.

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Do you have two banjos Jeff ??, the long toolrest needs to be used with two banjos, if it was used with just one banjo, that would possibly have caused the break you have there, good weld will make it usable again, but find a way to steady it, preferably with a second banjo, if you ever want to use it.

Does the knob on the tailstock have a short un-threaded part that fits the groove in the spindle ??, it should have that, or else it might not be the original part for it, if it has thread all the way to the end, that could be damaged, and in return damage the thread in the tailstock.

The shaft and bearing blocks look good, they have been looked after well, were there any shims ??, just wondering about that :)

If the bearing blocks have babbit in it, you can easily find out, as it quite soft material, and with a sharp point you can scratch the babbit.

I done only a couple of babbit pours, we used a piece of shaft that was the same diameter as the shaft that did runs in it, set that in the bearings and placed two thin pieces of sheet metal between the two halve bearing blocks up against the piece of shaft and poured the babbit, (blocks set on their side) after that the grease opening was drilled and the channel scraped into the babbit, like is showing in your bearing, or in a X way, for distributing the grease, shims would added if needed for free running of the shaft, anyway you don’t have to worry for any of that for a while, if you keep it lubricated properly 318702

[Jeff Spaulding]

I've got two banjos, so no problem there. I always just assumed the guy dropped it on the concrete floor. It was broken when I bought it, so there's no way of telling.

I'll check the screw on the knob tomorrow. It doesn't look like there's any damage to the slot, though.

Babbits, eh? I assumed those were... well, more bearing like, from the context. I'll look those up and see what I can find out about them.

There were no shims. I assume that's a good sign, since the spindle doesn't have any back-and-forth play.

So... talked to some machine shops again today.

Turns out one of the machine shops here specializes in spindle repair. A machinist in a neighboring town turned me on to them. I took the spindle and tailstock over there and talked to one of the guys.

He said he could figure out a way to do it, but it'd cost a lot of money (they do industrial stuff and are priced accordingly). He did say, if it came to it, he'd order me the necessary reamers for cost plus shipping - about $130 for both. He recommended another place, but while they'll do the tailstock for $60 or $70, they can't do the headstock. They're just not set up for it.

I might just have to live with the taper as is, at least in the headstock.

[Brian Myers]

It has babbit bearings. Babbit is a lead-tin alloy that is just about the same color as the cast iron. It is melted and poured in and then machined to size You can see the babbit on a few of the pictures. Used to be very common but now only done by specialists. Lasts forever if properly lubricated. Don't run it at modern speeds though, keep it under 1800 RPM or so. You'll want oil at those speeds, not grease.


You can do more than 1800 rpms with babbit , 3000 rpms should not be a problem with proper lubrication for spindle turning.

[Jeff Spaulding]

I'm not an expert on such things, so all this should be taken with a grain of salt. I didn't know what a babbitt bearing was before today.

From what I'm seeing (and the reading I've done on babbitts), I don't think this thing was ever set up for oil. There's no well at the bottom of the bearings. It may have been covered up if the bearings were ever repoured, I suppose. There are also no grooves in the bearing to distribute oil - only the wide slit at the top.

I'll check tomorrow when I go out there, but I don't think there is any opening in the cast iron on the bottom for oil. The only opening I'm seeing is in the top, where the grease cups are.

I'm running under the assumption that this lathe was meant to run using grease instead of oil. There's also Leo's testimony that he worked on similar lathes using grease for lubricant.

Right now, I'm estimating the maximum speed of the lathe to be about equal to the motor speed of 1750 RPM (the pulley on the motor is about the same diameter as the smallest pulley on the spindle). The bearings appear to be in good shape, but of course I don't know if it was ever run at top speed - the motor isn't original (as the lathe was supplied from CME without a motor - this was made in the days of overhead shafts and wide belts) and the previous owner passed away.

At this point, I think what I'll end up doing is running it as is (after cleaning it up and putting automotive grease in it) and keeping an eye on how hot the bearings get. Anyone have an idea how hot is too hot for these?

Also, found this when I zoomed in on a picture of one of the lower bearings (it's on the casting, not the bearing itself):

318769

Someone's idea of a gasket, maybe?

[Jason Edwards]

That's a shim for lubrication clearance between the babbit and the shaft. Paper makes a great shim in oily applications. Lasts just about forever. Most paper is about .003", which is just about the clearance you'd want in that application.

[Jeff Spaulding]

Oh, that's what people have been meaning by "shim." I was assuming thin pieces of metal for some reason.

That makes more sense now.

[Don Bunce]

Jeff,
I've been using grease on my lathe for over 20 yrs now, no problems. The bearings will warm up a bit, but not hot.

I don't remember ever seeing a lathe like this that didn't have a right hand thread on the inboard side, and a left hand thread on the outboard side. This allows you to turn larger pieces on the outboard end of the lathe. Your hand wheel or whatever should be able to be unscrewed. If this is the case, you might want to have two adaptors made, one RH, and one LH. Or you could have it double threaded, so it will fit on either end. Delta made their faceplates this way.

Another idea is to put a No.2 MT in the adaptor, so any centers, etc, could be used. To remove it, you would unscrew the adaptor, and knock out the center.

One disadvantage of a wood bed lathe is that aligning the tailstock to the headstock is difficult because of the lack of precision. Not a problem for turning spindles, but could be a problem for drilling holes for pepper mills, etc.

[Jeff Spaulding]

The lathe head is listed as "double ended" in the catalog, so I figured it'd be threaded as well. There's a faceplate on the back of the headstock in one of the pictures in there. I tried using a pipe wrench (not in the area on the bearings!) and trying to unscrew the wheel (left-hand first, then right), but it didn't budge.

Of course, my headstock doesn't exactly match either of the headstocks in the catalog. It's close, but not quite the same.

The wheel feels too light to have been original. Nothing on this lathe is light, besides that wheel. It also only has three holes in it (a four-hole pattern with one hole missing), so I don't think it was meant to be a faceplate. It does make a nice handwheel, though - fits nicely in the hand and gives you good leverage.

If I really need to turn something off the bed, I can always turn the headstock around. It'd run backwards, of course. I doubt I'll ever do it though - moving the headstock around might increase the inaccuracy you were talking about.

This lathe was offered with an optional iron bed (minimum size 6' long). I'm rather glad it didn't have one, really - I'd never be able to move it. For shorter pieces, I can use my drill press. For longer ones, I can shim the headstock or tailstock as needed. I honestly don't see myself making many kits, though - it's not really my style.

I'm waiting on a reply back from bestwoodtools about an adapter with a morse taper. It'll be Monday at the earliest before I hear from them.

Regarding the grease, I'm probably going to run it at low speeds for now until I talk to the guys over at OWWM. No offense to the guys here, but I'm getting conflicting opinions on the grease vs. oil thing, and I really don't want to do any damage to the lathe. A second opinion from there might clench it for me. I'll keep an eye on the bearing heat. If I find evidence the lathe was originally supposed to be oiled, I'll probably have this converted back. Those sure look like greasepots in the catalog, though.

I'm staring to wonder if I should have just built a spring-pole lathe - so much simpler. :)

[roger oldre]

Buy the reamer on Ebay and chuck it up in the tail stock, Ream it yourself. Same with drilling through. the Babbitt bearings should be fine in load radially but this set up is not good for thrust loads. easy on tightening the tailstock or shoving hard on a large diameter drill bit with the tailstock. spindles not so good but bowls and faceplate work all day long!

[Jeff Spaulding]

I thought about that.

What's holding me back is the fact that I'm completely inexperienced with any kind of turning, much less metal turning. If I mess it up, I have to have a new spindle made, get the bearings repoured, etc. The wooden bed doesn't help - if I'm even slightly off center, it'll ruin the spindle.

I'm just not willing to take that chance. If it wasn't an irreplaceable antique, I'd give it a try.

[roger oldre]

If you want to maintain its antique value then leave it be and buy a different machine lol. the reamer will self pilot on the existing hole. there is a "close enough" and a "not close enough" range. Take your time and try it. you don't have to run the reamer to full depth all at once. If it doesn't procede as planned there will still be plenty of room for the shop to bring it into shape. the shop that you take it to can use the reamer to finish the hole saving you a tooling charge.

[Jeff Spaulding]

Oh, don't get me wrong - I'm not a collector. I definitely want to use the machine.

To me, there's two kinds of antiques; working machines and museum pieces. The working machines of today, if properly kept, are the museum pieces of tomorrow.

This may sound kinda corny, but this machine is history - it's a working example of a piece of machinery used in factories a century ago. I feel it's my responsibility to preserve it for the future.

So while I'm perfectly willing to have a professional ream out a morse taper, I really don't want to attempt something that could destroy the spindle. If I had machining training and experience, I might feel different.

Think about your job; ever worked with someone who had no idea what they were doing and screwed stuff up? Would you let them work on your lathe? In this situation, I'm that guy, and I'm not letting myself work on my lathe :)

Also, no one I've talked to (including a company that specializes in spindle repair) will work on my spindle - it's 22" long, and their machines can't handle that. If I could find someone to do it for me, It'd be in the shop right now. So if I screw it up, I'd probably have to drive 100 miles or so to find someone who will.

Right now I think I've found some options that will allow me to keep the Jarno taper in the headstock with minimal loss of functionality. I'll post an update when I'm sure - I'm waiting on an email from a company.

[Jeff Spaulding]

Update, in case anyone on here cares what I do with my lathe :)

The first machine shop I went to - the one that brazed my toolrest - actually is capable of reaming out morse tapers. Turns out the guy I talked to was just some shop guy and turned me down because he didn't really understand what I wanted.

The spindle and tailstock are now in their care and should be ready sometime this week.

The owner seemed concerned that I wouldn't be able to remove the centers. He doesn't seem to know much about lathes from a woodworking perspective though (even though he apparently owns six of them). I asked him if he could bore through the spindle for a drawbar or knockout bar, but he couldn't. He referred me to a place that does work for Ditch Witch and has the necessary machines. They gave me an over-the-phone estimate of $200-$300 to put a 1/4" hole through the center of the spindle.

I've ordered a Supernova 2 chuck, a blank insert (they don't offer 10TPI 1 1/8" threaded inserts), and one of those 1" multi-point drive centers. The guy at the machine shop offered to sell me a three jaw chuck for $100. I told him I'd consider it, but after a bit of research, I'm going to turn him down. I know that's a good price (the thing is new in the box - he ordered it by accident several years ago), but I'm on a budget, and what would I do with a metalworking chuck, anyway?

After talking to some guys over at OWWM, I've decided my best option is to run the lathe on the existing grease cups and just keep an eye on the heat. If it gets too hot, I'll look into converting it to oil - otherwise, I'll keep it as is. It would take a while to actually damage the bearings, and the heat will tell me something's wrong long before any damage occurs.

I just cut up a dogwood tree that fell down in a storm. Some is going to be used on the lathe, some will be made into gluts, I'll try to cut some crotch wood for veneer (if the grain is interesting), and the rest is going into the smoker. I'm looking forward to actually being able to turn something.

[Ryan Mooney]

Sounds like good progress anyway :D Will certainly be interested to hear how it all works out. Especially if the grease ends up being sufficient.

[Don Bunce]

Instead of having the spindle drilled through for a knockout bar, have the spindle adaptor bored for a MT2 taper.

When you want to remove the drive center, unscrew the adaptor and knock it out.

[Doug Ladendorf]

You could also use a slide hammer to get the centers out. Glad to hear you are getting things sorted. Looking forward to pix.

Doug

[Dave Cullen]

The owner seemed concerned that I wouldn't be able to remove the centers. He doesn't seem to know much about lathes from a woodworking perspective though (even though he apparently owns six of them). I asked him if he could bore through the spindle for a drawbar or knockout bar, but he couldn't. He referred me to a place that does work for Ditch Witch and has the necessary machines. They gave me an over-the-phone estimate of $200-$300 to put a 1/4" hole through the center of the spindle.


The thru hole for a knockout bar doesn't need to be precision machined. You could drill the headstock spindle yourself once it's mounted in the bearings. As for the tailstock, I have needed to tap a center from behind with a mallet on occasion.

[Brian Myers]

Wonder if you could use a set of wedges like those used to remove drill press chucks to remove the drive center ? http://www.jacobschuck.com/accessories/jacobs-13268-3-wedge-set-used-on-3jt.html They come in different sizes and have no idea what size if any would work for mt2 but maybe your machine shop guy could help. I have an old babbitt bearing headstock which also has a taper in the inboard side of the spindle but is not drilled through for a knock out bar. I have no idea who made the head stock I have as it only has some casting numbers on it and have not seen another like it. If companies were doing this then there had to be a way of removing drive centers.