gell stains drying too quickly

[jim mills]

Trying some General finishes gel stain over shellac sealcoat and am having problems with the stain drying way to quickly. I'm inside with the A/C on. I'm having to use a MS soaked rag to get the dried stain off. Any suggestions?? Thanks!

[John TenEyck]

That shouldn't happen if you put a thick coat of the gel stain on a small area and wipe it off before it starts to look dull. I try to break up a piece into sections - a door panel, then the door frame, etc. I apply the gel stain with a foam brush, heavily and quickly, then wipe it off after a couple of minutes. I wipe it off with one rag, then go over it a second time with a clean rag to make sure it's all off and uniform.

The other way to apply it is to rub only a small amount into the wood, leaving it all in/on the wood. You'll use a lot less stain but it's not always as easy to get nice, uniform results.

John

[Robert LaPlaca]

I usually use General Gel stain as a glaze over Sealcoat, to make the gel a little less grabby I usually add 10% boiled linseed oil or so to extend the dry time..

[jim mills]

OK, I'm finding that if I do small sections, then immediately wipe, I get a good result and no signs of overlap. Put it on thick, and I get a huge mess & use a TON of rags. Definitely a learning curve. Robert, I'm using General Gel stain, and will try a little BLO & see if that helps. Thanks!

[Robert LaPlaca]

Jim, gel stains generally dry pretty quick, so as previously posted, its best to attack smaller areas with logical breaks.. If the product does dry too fast, one can just apply more gel stain to losen up the grip they have on the surface, rather than resorting to MS.. I do find that adding boiled linseed oil to the gel stain product makes the removal process a little less frantic

[jim mills]

OK, so I think I have a pretty good technique down, but I've let things dry, steel wooled everything, and started doing a second coat. I can't see any difference after the second coat. Almost no change in color. :confused:

[John TenEyck]

You won't get much color change with additional coats of gel stain unless you wipe less vigorously. The first coat filled the pores and sealed the wood. Now you have to use it like a glaze. Try just wiping some on, without wiping it off. Practice; you'll get the hang of it.

John

[jim mills]

According to the instructions, additionsl coats will dsrken. Im thinking about sealing, and going to s toner

[John TenEyck]

According to the instructions, additionsl coats will darken. Im thinking about sealing, and going to s toner

It will, but only if you don't wipe too hard. Sealing and toning is good, too, but another whole kettle of fish. That process works best if you have spray equipment. It can be done by hand, but it's a lot harder. You can make toners by putting Transtint in dewaxed shellac, or you can add dye to your topcoat.

John

[jim mills]

OK, so gel stains have quickly become my least favorite finish. Since I used a shellac blotch control, I'm not sure what I gained using a gell over a penetrating stain. Yes, I have spray equipment. I am experimenting with toning & getting some impressive results on test pieces. Stuff sure is concentrated though. I used a 2oz bottle of TT dye in a gallon of DNA, then added a pint of sealcoat as a binder, and that seems way too concentrated. Almost impossible to get consistent results at that concentration. I diluted my mixture 50/50 again, and it is still a bit strong, unless I am doing something wrong.:confused:

[John TenEyck]

Your concentration was about 1.4%. That's in the same range I often use. But I start by taking 25 ml of DNA or shellac and adding Transtint drop wise, usually starting with 5 drops. I put a little on a test board, and add more if needed. 9 drops of dye in 25 ml would be about 1.4%.

The key with toners is to use a light concentration so that you can apply at least 2 coats. That allows you to build the color and to get uniform color over the whole piece. Three coats is even easier.

I'm still baffled why you had so much trouble with the gel stain. What wood are you putting it on? Many people use a penetrating stain or dye followed by a gel stain to build depth.

John

[jim mills]

not so much "trouble" with the gel stain, just messy, and I was disappointed that I couldn't get the color darker with additional coats, as suggested in the instructions. The wood is cherry, which I applied two coats of 1# shellac as blotch control. I'm getting things darker, but with the diluted mix of about .7%, progress is slow. I'm guessing it's gonna take 6 or more coats to get where I want to be.

[Robert LaPlaca]

I'm still baffled why you had so much trouble with the gel stain. What wood are you putting it on? Many people use a penetrating stain or dye followed by a gel stain to build depth.

John

Not to pile on the OP, but I use a gel stain all the time on top water based dye sealed with a couple of coats of 1# shellac to build depth. Find it much easier to sneak up on the finial color, rather than the Big Bang approach..

[Robert LaPlaca]

not so much "trouble" with the gel stain, just messy

Ok, have to agree, the stuff is messy..

[jim mills]

So Am I doing this backwards? I sealed, gel stained, then dyed to darken. I was afraid the dye would blotch if put on first.

[Mike Ontko]

Jim,

I noticed in your original post that you used SealCoat for the first layer and then applied the dye. Based on my recent ventures with GF water based stain, I believe they recommend applying their conditioner first (to ensure uniform absorbtion, and prevent blotch effects). The SealCoat can be used as a secondary layer, on top of the stain/dye, to lock in the color and prevent lifting when applying a top coat.

Based on what I've learned (so far...I'm just a first-timer), the approach seems to be:
1) pre-raise the grain with a conditioner or damp rag,
2) sand down the raised grain (do not use steel wool with water based products),
3) apply dye/stain (multiple coats for the desired effect),
4) (optionally) apply SealCoat to lock in the color and prevent run during top coat application,
5) apply the top coats, sanding lightly between successive coats,
6) allow adequate time for curing before use

[jim mills]

Hi mike. According to many on many forums, the most recommended approach was to seal the cherry with shellac, then use a gel stain, applying multiple coats until the desired color was achieved. Additional coats of gel stain weren't giving me any darkening, so I decided to switch to a toner. I'm getting positive results with the toner, but I'm using a pretty dilute mixture, and progress is slow. Three coats and I'm still not quite there.