Questions for Setting Up a New Shop

[Aaron Mills]

Hi,



I'm relatively young (21 years) and am considering setting up a shop in a two car garage. I know there are lots of threads regarding setting up a new shop, but because I do not have the fiscal constraints that arise from a family or other responsibilities and expect to use these tools for a long time, hopefully professionally.



Previously, I did 5 years of woodworking in high school and utilized its woodshop in the intervening years. Having moved recently that shop is no longer readily available. I will complete my university degree soon, but will pursue woodworking instead and attend a tradeschool in a year's time. Woodworking is something that I have sorely missed and I expect it to either become my profession or serious hobby to last me through the years.

My background in woodworking is almost based entirely on my high school shop experiences, and the General tools that it featured. I primarily built mortise & tenon furnture, but also did some carcass construction too. I expect to expand my horizons in due time (hopefully some raised panel cabinetry), but will likely continue to work with mortise & tenon projects. I've been reading up lots, visiting stores, and lurking on forums to glean as much information as possible, but was hoping for some direct input on some questions.

1. Should I put my money towards quality, professional grade products (ie. General 650, Delta DJ20, etc.)? If yes, how much should I invest initially?

2. How would you prioritize your purchases for:
- 10" cabinet saw
- 8" jointer
- 13" benchtop joiner (or better)
- 10/12" compound mitre saw (opt for slider, yes or no?)
- 17" drill press
- Mortiser (benchtop or floor model)
- 3+ HP router & table
- Dust collection
(please feel free to put in other tools that are more essential)

Thanks for your time,

Aaron

[Norman Hitt]

Hi,



I'm relatively young (21 years) and am considering setting up a shop in a two car garage. I do not have the fiscal constraints that arise from a family or other responsibilities and expect to use these tools for a long time, hopefully professionally.



Woodworking is something that I have sorely missed and I expect it to either become my profession or serious hobby to last me through the years.

I've been reading up lots, visiting stores, and lurking on forums to glean as much information as possible, but was hoping for some direct input on some questions.

1. Should I put my money towards quality, professional grade products (ie. General 650, Delta DJ20, etc.)? If yes, how much should I invest initially?

2. How would you prioritize your purchases for:
- 10" cabinet saw
- 8" jointer
- 13" benchtop joiner (or better)
- 10/12" compound mitre saw (opt for slider, yes or no?)
- 17" drill press
- Mortiser (benchtop or floor model)
- 3+ HP router & table
- Dust collection
(please feel free to put in other tools that are more essential)

Thanks for your time,

Aaron



Aaron, the answer to your first question is YES. My feeling is that since you have used power tools in the school shop for several years, you should have enough experience to know what to look for in selecting Good Quality Tools, and therefore should take your time and look for ONE major tool at a time. If you do this right, you will save a lot of money over the years by buying tools that will last you a lifetime, and you can keep ADDING different tools to your shop instead of having to spend money to replace one that didn't last or didn't work satisfactorily.

For instance;
1. The first thing on My list would be a good "Cabinet Saw". With your experience of tools, you could even hunt for a good Buy in a Used saw such as a Unisaw, PM-66, General, Bridgewood, etc, and even if it needed a little refurb, you would have a great saw that would have the power, accuracy and endurance to never need replacing, and not break your bank when you buy it.
2. Get a "GOOD" Dust Collector, (to save your health so you can enjoy this work/hobby for the rest of your "long life")
3. Router and make your own router table
4. Then a jointer, 8" Minimum width), again, new OR used.
5. Next, a Planer, (width can be determined at that time), now you can save money by using rough wood
5a. Bandsaw, (heck, it was late and I just skipped over it in my list)
6. Now comes the Drill Press
7. Next the mortiser, (this tool since not very expensive, could be purchased higher up in the list, if you have a real need for it.
8. And last on Your list comes the Mitre saw, because you can make ANY cut by using a sled, on the cabinet saw that you can make on the mitresaw.
9. If you start doing some projects that have curves in their design, you will probably want to get an Oscillating Spindle Sander at some point.
10. By this point you will probably want to start thinking about some brand of Dovetail jig.


Obviously, there would need to be some hand tools and some portable power tools purchased along the way in the list above, such as a hand Drill and Drill Driver, Drill Bits and Forstner bits, a circular saw, chisles, a hand plane or two or three......., scrapers, a dovetail saw, and of course, a couple of sanders, at least one being a random orbit sander.

Always remember what Jim Becker says, " the most expensive tool you ever buy, is one that has to be replaced soon, and or often". In other words DON"T BUY POOR QUALITY, even if it appears to be cheap at the time. It sure is less expensive to "Save" a little longer and buy a good quality tool the First time, DAMHIKT, :mad:

This list, is just my opinion, of course, :D but I hope you may find my reasoning helpful in your selection process, and I wish you Many, Many years of woodworking enjoyment.

PS: Welcome to the "Creek", but one other thing I forgot to mention is that the rules of this forum require "Real Names" by all member posters, so you need to PM a moderator and give them the information to correct your profile.

[Dale Rodabaugh]

Sounds like you have an excellent background for being so young.I wouldnt say what paticular brands,sizes,etc. to buy.However my advice would be to buy the very best tools you can,especially at your age.If you buy top of the line they will last you a life time.To me there is nothing worse than buying an off brand to save a few bucks,and six months later your kicking yourself in the a$$ for not getting the better one.

[larry merlau]

i think we are supposed to use our real names on here aaron not a nick name or alias. check out the rules and as for the tools i too agree that you should get the best you can afford, and maybe a alittle better. you wont be sorry you did there are many reviews on here to help you with your decisions. you should look at what you want to make, and where you are headed in your mind. then plan yur attack. p.s i didnt notice a bandsaw in your list and would place it around fth place. resawing and curve work also used alot for roughing oput turning pieces

[Aaron Mills]

Sorry about the alias, hopefully I'll have it adjusted soon.

I've done a lot of reading through archives on this forum as well as others and visited some shops to get a feel for many of the machines discussed. I should mention that living in Canada limits the majority of purchases to General (and General Int'l), Delta, and the Jet Canada line. There's a Woodcraft store about 3 hours away and across the border that stocks Powermatic, but I'm not sure if I can justify S&H costs coupled with duty costs.

Your responses coupled with the general sentiment that a cabinet saw is the workhorse, if not the centre of a shop makes this a high priority purchase. An 8" jointer is also likely to be among my initial purchases. Where I struggle with finding a tool that is in-line with the tools I've used previously is a thickness planer. I am familiar with an older 24" General planer that was in my high school shop and am uncertain about how a bench top model compares. Should I opt for a bench top model, or possibly forego purchasing a drill press, mortiser, and mitre saw to spend a $1000 plus on a full-size model?

Thanks for the help!

Aaron

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Aaron.....Welcome to the Creek! Neat place to exchange information! From beginners to pros ....they are all here willing to provide an opinion and advice.

My advice......you never have to apologize for doing a good job......you'll never be sorry for buyin quality...

BTW....send an email to Jackie Outten with you real name and she'll change it for you...

Again.....Welcome to the Creek! Wade right in....

[Tim Sproul]

I'd investigate an FMT for doing mortise and tenon joinery. I have one and it is quite the thing for that joint. Not perfect......but then again, perfection is imperfection, right?

Clamps and other 'odds and ends' - including finishes and finishing equipment - can add up significantly in $$$'s. Budget accordingly because without some of these, woodworking is less enjoyable, unprofitable, and/or downright difficult. For square work, band clamps are an inexpensive and effective clamp.

Also, get a stationary thickness planer rather than a benchtop. The work you plan on calls for using solid stock.....and the thicknesser is generally used more than the power jointer.

And yes, I'd say get 'quality' tools that are made to last more than a few years. You don't expect to keel over in 5 years, do you?

How are you going to go about surface prep? Abrasives and/or hand planes? Those too add up quickly in cost. Abrasives - Festool. Jeeezzzzzz...they're sanders are so good I sometimes catch myself looking forward to sanding :eek: ! I think my hand planes have become very very very angry with me since getting into Festool.

[Aaron Mills]

I'd investigate an FMT for doing mortise and tenon joinery. I have one and it is quite the thing for that joint. Not perfect......but then again, perfection is imperfection, right?

What FMT set ups are available other than the Leigh option? The Leigh model would set me back $849 CDN + taxes.


Clamps and other 'odds and ends' - including finishes and finishing equipment - can add up significantly in $$$'s. Budget accordingly because without some of these, woodworking is less enjoyable, unprofitable, and/or downright difficult. For square work, band clamps are an inexpensive and effective clamp.

I've left another $1000 CDN for saw blades, router bits, and clamps. I have hand planes and chisels that were gifted to me by my shop teacher. Hopefully, it won't put too great a strain on my budget since this is the area where I am most uncertain about what I will be purchasing.

[Richard Wolf]

Aaron, I know I asked Frank Pellows about this once, and don't know if I understood his answer. Do you mean to tell us that you can not import Mini Max machinery or other brands into Canada? Are you really limited to a small selection? Are you allowed to carry it across the border yourself? Just curious.

Richard

[Aaron Mills]

Aaron, I know I asked Frank Pellows about this once, and don't know if I understood his answer. Do you mean to tell us that you can not import Mini Max machinery or other brands into Canada? Are you really limited to a small selection? Are you allowed to carry it across the border yourself? Just curious.

It's an intricate subject that I'm not fully briefed on, but tool selection is more limited than in America, especially in comparison to the eastern & central regions. Some companies simply will not import or are not available in Canada (Grizzly being the former, and Powermatic the latter). Those companies that are willing to ship into Canada charge higher S&H fees than for S&H in the lower 48 states. On top of S&H charges, there are either brokerage fees (if shipped via courier) or duty charges (USPS/Canada Post) which is generally 10% of the shipment's value. Not particularly cost effective now is it?

Bringing the items back across the border is allowed, but there are limitations on the value of goods being brought back in. When those limits are exceeded, duty charges are applied. This is a scenario I am contemplating, but it also raises an issue of the validity of warranties, since the tools may not originally have been designed for export.

Incidentally, there are alternatives to the big boys, analogous with Woodbridge or Yorkcraft, but definitely subpar in comparison to the quality. Though I know many of these choices would likely get the job done and stand up to general shop abuse, they lack the following on forums/boards of many imported American alternatives. Thus, I'm not sure they would be a wise investment of my money.

[Richard Wolf]

Bummer!

Richard

[Dan Forman]

How do you feel about hand work? Some assume that dovetails require an expensive jig, whereas others say that they can be cut with a dovetail saw and chopped out with a chisel. Mortises can also be chopped out, saving the money on a dedicated mortiser. It all depends on what you enjoy doing. Don't forget a good workbench in your calculations. Even if you make your own, if you use a hardwood it will be expensive.

Unless you want to get into a european sliding table saw (how do you say "expensive" in Canadian?), I would look no farther than a Canadian made General.

I can see where it would be frustrating shopping under such governmental restrictions. Good luck, and hope you have fun in spite of them.

Dan

[Aaron Mills]

Not being able to readily access cheaper, quality-made off shore products is frustrating, but the challenge of putting together a quality shop that doens't break the bank is intriguing. I know I'll have to scour classified ads, flea markets, and woodworking forums to find some good, used tools that will do a better job than these modern machines, but I'm up for it!

I love handwork, especially since it was the basis for my woodshop training. Knowing how to use hand tools is so integral to being a strong woodworker I'm surprised it doesn't play a bigger role in shop class. Too many teachers direct students toward the machine that will get the job done quickest that many students never understand the difficulty of a joint or the attention to detail to create certain features. In any event, a trip to the flea market to seek out some used hand planes & chisels is in the works.

Thanks for all the help so far,

Aaron

[egon reske]

Wish you well on your endeavor Aaron.

I'm slowly getting set up to start building a few things but for retirment and home use only.

My only comment is to try and get power tools with the largest longest tables possible, buy very good quality cutting edges, and lots of clamps.

Make your own router table with a dedicated router.

I would consider the sliding compound miter saw high on the list as it works quickly for cutting off long pieces.

Use a dedicated drill press with mortice attachments and have plenty of support table. You may consider a radial arm press for this purpose.

Band saw would be high on the list for me also.

Just for interest sake I have been cutting logs to dimensional lumber using a chainsaw, jointer, band saw and bench top planer. Presently the wood is drying. Perhaps next winter I may make something. Most of my work must be done outside as the working area is too small.

Egon

[J.R. Rutter]

You might check into a used combo machine like a Robland. I've seen a couple of them listed on the WoodWeb Machinery Exchange recently.

I will also stress the importance of proper dust collection and return air filtering. The more time you spend in the shop, the more important this becomes.

You can't go wrong with the General line. I got a 350 table saw and old 280 12" jointer from Canada when I was starting out a couple of years ago. You can probably find good used machinery up there. Get to know the basics of bearings and you can refurb stuff pretty easily if you've got the time.

[J.R. Rutter]

Here's one now:

http://www.woodweb.com/exchanges/machinery/posts/403563.html

[Robert Tarr]

Aaron,

Good luck with this! Putting together a shop takes a bit of time and can get downright frustrating at times.

For me, any power tool MUST equal quality dust collection. For me that is Oneida, but several other vendors play in this space, including Canadian companies.

I would move a high quality bandsaw way up on the list. Between it and a TS and some chisels, planes etc. not a whole lot can't be done. I am a little different than some of the folks around here. I think the BS is more critical than a TS, but then again, I do lots of work with hand tools. Either way, this rates a solid 2nd or 3rd place on your list.

Lastly, one "tool" I don't see on your list, is a Kreg jig. I don't know of anyone who is sorry for having purchased it. It will help you build your shop cabinets, drawers and such with almost no clamps. You will also find if very useful for many other projects. One of those things that you will wonder how you lived without and works better than advertised.

Let us know what you decide.

Robert

[tim langford]

Aaron,

You probably have as much experience as lots of people here - hope I didn't hurt anyone's feelings.

If I lived in Canada, I'd buy General. I've seen them in production shops here and I know people who pay extra to get them here in the USA. I bought Delta here to save shipping from up there.

Tablesaw 1st, Jointer and Planer 2nd (Get a big Planer) and build a nice work bench 3rd.

Good luck.

[Aaron Mills]

A lot of people mentioned a large, quality bandsaw, but I'm curious as to why it is such an important tool. Even when I had access to my high school shop, it seemed that I only used the bandsaw to resaw on 1 or 2 occassions. For cutting out curves, it's definitely easier on a larger bandsaw but there would seem to be cheaper (but not necessarily as efficient) alternatives to completing these type of cuts. Also, isn't it more challenging to get an accurate, straight cut using a band saw than on the tablesaw?

I raise these points because I have a small 9" benchtop bandsaw and a 10" benchtop table saw, the latter of which never leaves me feeling particularly comfortable, especially when working with hardwoods. I can make due with the bandsaw, hence why it wasn't on the list of tools that I was trying to prioritize. If I were to only have to choose one tool to upgrade right now, wouldn't a tablesaw make more sense?

NOTE: I'm still kicking myself for not acting quickly enough a few months back on a 20" General 390 bandsaw for $1700 CDN. It retails for $6000 CDN plus taxes. Should've jumped on that one even though I wasn't certain that I was going to start up a shop any time soon! I'd rather wait for a great used opportunity like this for some of the less essential tools rather than bringing it into the fold at a higher cost right now.


Lastly, one "tool" I don't see on your list, is a Kreg jig. I don't know of anyone who is sorry for having purchased it. It will help you build your shop cabinets, drawers and such with almost no clamps. You will also find if very useful for many other projects. One of those things that you will wonder how you lived without and works better than advertised.

I'm familiar with pocket screws and Kreg jigs, but at the risk of offending some I will explain why it isn't a priority purchase for me. Pocket screw setups fall into the same category as a biscuit joiner, quick and easy to use, but takes a lot of the craftsmanship out of woodworking. While it has very practical applications, I think I'm more inclined to try my hand at and refine my other joinery techniques over the initial years of my shop setup.

Thanks for the input,

Aaron

[J.R. Rutter]

The Kreg jig is for when you need some business, but have cheap customers... But not having a family does free you from some of these constraints :-) Gets the job done quickly, and is definitely useful for making and attaching face frames...

[Aaron Mills]

I've slowly amassed several machines (cabinet saw, planer, jointer, drill press) and am planning to work on electrical wiring & dust collection over the winter months (although I have costed those out already). I may be adding a bandsaw into the mix in the next few weeks, but I feel comfortable enough with the machines that I now have to move forward.

The question I have now relates to some of the smaller considerations for setting up a shop. I'm not concerned with finishing sanders, power drills, or the like, but more basic items. Are there any accessories (like a pocket hole jig, sharpening stones, etc.) or hand tools that should be a priority? I already have a good set of chisels and several hand planes, but what are some of the smaller items around your shop that you find raise the quality of finish or simply your work?

Thanks,

Aaron

[Bill Fields]

AAron:

Good cabinet saw first--lots of clamps--precision accessories for TS like Incra Miter 1000SE and their new slide system.

Don't ignore presicion squares, dial indicators.

Bar clamps from quality houses like Rockler--10 or 12 is a good start. 20-30 or more varied galvanized threaded pipe lengths from the borg-- 12" 30" 48" lengths should get you started--don't forget the 3/4" couplings.

From this you should be able to design and build a workbench, a dedicated MS bench, and storage shelves.

Try not to make financial comprimise on the equiptment. Nothing worse than haveng bought something meansngful--and expensive--and realizing that you did not choose well.

Good luck and welcome!

BILL FIELDS

[Alan Turner]

Aaron,
Took me more than a few years to realize it, but I would not skimp on measuring and marking tools as the layout of a piece, or a joint, is perhaps the most critical aspect of woodworking. Starrett acquisitions will last a lifetime and to me are well worth the investment. Having discovered this, I find that probalby the most used tool in my shop is the 4" double square.

[Aaron Mills]

Thanks for the info so far.

Bill,

Got some clamps and a dial indicator already. Put the dial indicator to good use testing out the table saw. Clamps I picked up at auction and some from the Lee Valley sale, although it seems that popular advice is you can never have enough clamps.

Regarding aftermarket mitre gauges like the Incra Miter 1000SE, how have you found them to affect the level of your work on the table saw? It was a problem I ran into regularly working in the high school wood shop with stock mitre gauges. None of my angled mortises for my Morris chair went together smoothly, and I spent a lot of time fiddling with the mitre gauge. What features help to make a good mitre gauge?

Alan,

I'm familiar with marking tools such as marking/mortising gauges, but I'm curious if there are any other marking tools that you use regularly. Also, I only used framing and try squares in high school so I don't really know what a 4" double square is used for. Could you give me some insight into how it would be used in a wood shop?

As always, I appreciate everyone's help,

Aaron

[Alan Turner]

I use the 4" double square where ever I do not need the length of a 12" combination square, which is usually.

Other measuring and marking tools (just looking at my bench): Saddle square from LV, for taking a line around a square corner. Hinged saddle square, by Bridge City, a definite splurge. LV taper guage, in fractional inches (a matter of taste), for set-ups, including the rip fence on a TS or BS. Marking knifes (self made), like the Chester Toolworks ones by Dave Anderson, but a bit less costlyand far less pretty. 12" hook rule, by LV. 24" steel rule, by Starrett. 39" steel rule, by Rabone (part of an estatge purchase). An Altoids tin of white chald dust, for highlighting lines that are knifed (old and poor vision here), esp. on darker woods. Other tins will do also. A bottle of dust is a lifetime supply. The tin lives in my tool well on the bench.

[Joe Unni]

Aaron,

Welcome!

I'll second the 4" double square. It even gets a spot in my apron - when I wear it! It's just easier to handle with my small hands.

You asked about after market miter gauges and how it improves (or not) the work. Well, I bought the Wood Haven Deluxe gauge and cutoff sled a while ago and I can tell you it has improved my work 10-fold! The speed, accuracy, and repeatability is truly remarkable. It has actually helped me to grow my business and take on larger and more complex projects.

I'll also agree with getting the best tools you can afford. Not doing this has bitten me on more than a few occasions. Making due can be fun (i.e. working through the challenge), but when you have a very nice project at hand the goofs that sometimes happen while 'making due' can get very expensive and leads to much frustration.

Anyways, good luck on your quest.

-joe

[Frank Pellow]

I've slowly amassed several machines (cabinet saw, planer, jointer, drill press) and am planning to work on electrical wiring & dust collection over the winter months (although I have costed those out already). I may be adding a bandsaw into the mix in the next few weeks, but I feel comfortable enough with the machines that I now have to move forward.

The question I have now relates to some of the smaller considerations for setting up a shop. I'm not concerned with finishing sanders, power drills, or the like, but more basic items. Are there any accessories (like a pocket hole jig, sharpening stones, etc.) or hand tools that should be a priority? I already have a good set of chisels and several hand planes, but what are some of the smaller items around your shop that you find raise the quality of finish or simply your work?

Thanks,

Aaron
Aaron, I know that you have the CD re my shop construction and equipping, so you have seen photos of some of the other tools that I rely on.

The items, other than power tools and tools that you already haveand , that I consider most important are:

1) Clamps. You still have one day to take advantage of the great sale on Bessey K-body clamps at Lee Valley.

2) Measuring and marking tools. Again, Lee Valley is a great source of these.

3) A good workbench with vices, bench dogs, etc. Right now, I am making good use of a Festool MFT (multifunction table) but, in the fullness of time, I will probably also build/buy a Veritas bench a some of their vises. The Veritas Tucker Vice is amazing. I have used one owned by a friend of mine and it is definitely high on my wish list.

4) I don't yet have a jig for dovetails and other joints but will probably get one next year. I am trying to decide among one from Leigh, the Festool VS 600 jointing system, and the Woodrat.