Leveling legs on a six-legged table

[Chris Merriam]

How's that for a tongue twister?? Sooooo, before I do something I regret, can I get some advice? I've just wrapped up a six-legged table/desk for the wife. It's almost 80 inches long, and about 14in wide. Normal apron construction. I glued it up in two sections, leg pairs A and B were glued together to form one half of the table, then the next day I glued leg pair C to it. Since I don't have an 80in long workbench, nor an assembly table that long, that second glue up was.....difficult....and done on my shop floor. It didn't go well, some of the joints didn't want to go together smoothly. I got through it, but I think I ended up skewing the base assembly a bit.

Fast forward to today, I bring it in to the house for a test fit, and my suspicions are confirmed, the legs are out of whack. I realize my floor probably isn't flat either, but I tried it in three places, and in two of them it rocked way too much.

I've read tips on how to level a four legged table on the table saw or workbench, but nothing on six legs.

Will this work: can I just place the table in its final spot, then note the height of the shortest leg (that is hanging in the air right now, about 3/16ths), then draw a scribe line on each of the other five legs, starting from the floor, and extending up that same 3/16ths, then cut along that scribe line?

It feels ok, but I don't want to start chasing my tail and end up with a coffee table before I know it!!

As a final FYI, it's actually the middle two legs that are the tallest, so the desk actually rocks left and right like a seesaw.

[Chris Merriam]

Here's what it looks like:
317861

[Danny Hamsley]

That is a beautiful table! Too bad you are not close to me. I could put it upside down on my sawmill and cut the legs all at the same time to get them level. Do you know anyone close by with a horizontal band sawmill like a Woodmizer LT40?

[Kent A Bathurst]

I would consider this approach:

Get a pack of the cheap beveled softwood shims from the BORG.

Use them on the outer 4 legs as you monitor a level on the table top. Get it level and non-rocking.

Then - - I would get another set of hands, and snap a chalk line from top-of-shims to top-of-shims, against the center legs. Once for the front set of legs. Once for the back set of legs.

Then - handsaw or sander, stopping short of the chalk line.

Check it out again, and sneak up on it slowly. You need to take the time -- breath in long, slow, breaths. If you overshoot, you just multiplied your problem................

At the end - some hard plastic shims would not bother me - - I'd think McMaster Carr or others have them in increments of one thou or so...........If I was off by 2 thou on one leg and 1 thou on another, I would put the tools down, shim those, and claim victory.

[Chris Merriam]

Thanks guys, unfortunately I don't know anyone with a horizontal bandsaw.

Kent, I like your approach, and yes I'm trying to be very cautious so I don't do something I regret. This is meant to be used as desk, and I didn't leave much wiggle room for the drawers and comfortable thigh-space. I think I'm going to have to take off a fat 1/8th, so probably go the handsaw route.

I'm trying to visualize your chalk line. I clearly see how it will mark the middle set of legs, but what about the legs on the outside? Take an extreme example, say I jack up one side six inches, and the other side only one inch. I snap a chalkline, and it won't tell me to remove anything from the outer legs, only the inner set. Am I thinking of this right?

[Kent A Bathurst]

Chris -

I did not explain myself well.

The center legs are long, from what you say. OK - - then leave them on the floor, and shim the other 4 only as much as needed to keep the level on-line, and eliminate the rocking.

This simply isolates the center leg deviation from target. On the front legs - - a chalk line held tight to the intersection of the left leg and the top of the shim is stretched to the far right leg at that same intersection, and snapped against the center leg. That tells you how much needs to be removed. On the back 3 legs - rinse, repeat.

If there is a difference in shim height from the left front to the right front - - well, then, the problem is more complicated than you thought. But - these steps will not have been in vain - they are necessary either way. And, hopefully, some [nearly] invisible plastic shims can solve this remaining issue[s].


If the real situation is 6" on the left, and 1" in the right, and the center legs are touching, then get a hatchet, make firewood, start over........:p Mebbe take up fishing.

[Andrew Hughes]

If you don't want to build a flat referance surface in your shop to cut the long legs, a penny or dime or nickel are what I use under my hall tables in my house.
maybe someday you'll have a bigger assembly table to level the legs.Then it's just a simple as laying a flush trim saw on a piece of scrap and sawing around the long legs while its standing up.Its not hard to do at all.

[Wade Lippman]

I had to level an 8 legged bookcase; just shimmed with felt pads. Easy, looks fine.

[Chris Merriam]

Thanks all, that makes good sense.

I think I'll be fine using any of your methods on the front three legs, they are just marginally off. It's one leg in the back that is messed up due to my wacky glue up. It's about 2-3 times the error as the others, and is noticeably hanging in the air. So I think at a minimum I need to do something with that back row. Won't be doing anything until tomorrow after work so I'll take plenty of time to think it through.

I think my original thought is pretty close to what Andrew is saying about using a flush trim saw on a piece of scrap. I'm thinking that I shim both side of the table to get it level, then measure the gap on the gimpy leg. Say it's 3/16ths. I'll build up a piece of scrap so that when I lay my flush saw on it, it will cut right at 3/16ths above the floor. The two center legs will get the full 3/16ths chopped off. The other three outer legs, which are shimmed, will get a lesser amount cut off. I think this will put me back to where I should have been in the first place, then I can go with the felt pads for final finessing.

[Mike Henderson]

If the legs are big enough, I'd get some screw feet. Put one on each leg and adjust as needed. It will also allow you to move the table to another place where the floor might not be level.

If you don't want to do that, Kent's idea is good. Just go slow so you don't overshoot. And remember to level front to back as well as side to side.

Mike

[Kent A Bathurst]

Chris -- do whatever makes sense to you, and you are comfortable with. BUT - before you start cutting into the OEM legs' length, step back, take deep breaths and think about it a few times.

When you are digging a hole for yourself, the most important task is to throw the shovel away.

It is especially good that you have isolated the symptom, and have diagnosed the disease - that give you a better understanding of how to move forward.

If you do not get back to us with updates on what you did, and how it worked, then you are an unrepentant sissy. :p

[Mike Henderson]

Another approach is to make a shim from the same wood and attach it to the short leg with a dowel. People will not notice a tight glue line on a back leg.

Mike

[Pat Barry]

Before you do any cutting, can you verify the leg length by carefully measuring from the underside of the table top to the end of each leg. You could use a story stick and mark each leg. Assuming they are all OK then what you are saying is the top is not planar but warped a bit. You could trim the center legs as outlined by Kent above, but if the legs are all the same I would be tempted to use the felt pads and let it be for a while. If they are not the same length, then trim the long ones to even it all up

[Chris Merriam]

Thanks all, after a night spent dreaming of complicated angles and slopes and triangles (really!) I think I'm going to go with Kent's method and just cut the two center legs. My hope is that will put me close enough to then finish with the "leveling with felt pads" technique.

[Marion Smith]

My think outside the box plan on this one would be go buy an assortment of felt feet in various thicknesses, put two thin ones on the center legs, then stack the L & R ones until it stands stable. Kill 2 birds with one stone.. Level the table, and protect the hardwood floor as well.

[Chris Merriam]

Yep Marion, that would work, except that one back leg is just a little too short, it would drive me crazy to walk past and see that big gap. So I'll knock it down fairly close, then go with the felt pads as you say.

[Steve Peterson]

Since you already appear to have the exact location picked for the table, I would cut the legs to fit. Shim the outer legs so it is level and doesn't rock. Lay a pencil flat on the floor and use it to mark all 6 legs. That should get it within about 1/32" of being a perfect fit. Felt pads on the bottom would make it better.

btw: that is a really nice looking table.

Steve

[Pat Barry]

Yep Marion, that would work, except that one back leg is just a little too short, it would drive me crazy to walk past and see that big gap. So I'll knock it down fairly close, then go with the felt pads as you say.


How big is / are the gaps anyway? Any idea why they are so big?

[Mike Ontko]

I don't have any credible advice to offer...at least not any more helpful than what's already been presented. But especially because I'm the type that would end up with a coffee table and then explain it as an original design intent.

But I did want to drop in to repeat the compliment -- wow, nice table! And the dutchman is a nice add--not something I've seen on a surface with finished edges.

[Chris Merriam]

yep, the bad leg is about 3/16ths too short. The legs were all cut the same length, on my crosscut sled. The problem happened during glue up. First, I only had one pipe clamp that would reach a full 80 inches, so I had to daisy chain two clamps together on one side. Next, I was working in a narrow area of my shop that I was hoping was the best, flattest area. I didn't have full 360 degree access to all sides of the table.

So I get it all clamped up and one of the horizontal rails on the front of the table wouldn't close all the way (domino connected rail to leg, and it wouldn't seat). So I started cranking up the pressure and began hearing ominous creaking noises so I got scared and backed off. I moved the clamps around trying different things, and eventually got it to close. What I didn't realize, because I couldn't see the whole base assembly, is that now a gap opened up on the rear apron, at the center set of legs. The rear apron is 4.5in tall, and with the gap at the bottom of it, I think that makes the center legs "taller". The gap was maybe 1/8, perhaps a little bit less. I doctored up a shim and epoxied it in to the gap, thinking I was lucky it was on the back. What I didn't think about at the time is that I shifted my problem from one spot to another.

Moral of the story is I should have built an assembly table large enough to work and clamp in comfort, so I could clearly see what I was doing. And, I should have bought another +80in run of pipe so I could have 2 long pipe clamps.

Second moral of the story: Why wouldn't the assembly go together right in the first place? I suspect because I tapered the legs, and this was my first time tapering. It's actually much much harder than I thought to get the taper to start exactly where you want it to on the tablesaw. Some parts of my rails and aprons are not registering at exactly 90 degrees to the legs because a little bit of taper snuck up too high on the legs. I gave myself 1/2 inch of room between the flat leg surface and the start of the taper, and I needed more than that.

Think about setting up a taper against a saw blade. Which part of the blade do you start measuring at: the very front of the blade? Ok, but it's too low, you won't be able to achieve a taper on a 1.5in tall leg until you've pushed it further in to the blade. Ok, so start the taper later, closer to the middle part of the blade where it's nice and tall. I tried that, but it seems a little bit of scraping happened beforehand anyways.

[Chris Merriam]

I don't have any credible advice to offer...at least not any more helpful than what's already been presented. But especially because I'm the type that would end up with a coffee table and then explain it as an original design intent.

But I did want to drop in to repeat the compliment -- wow, nice table! And the dutchman is a nice add--not something I've seen on a surface with finished edges.

Thanks Mike! Yep, the butterfly was a new thing for me too. It was actually out of necessity. The boards I got for the top were about 80 inches long, and my base is like 77 3/4 or so. Then allow a little bit of overhang and I basically had no room left to chop off the crack at the end of one of the boards. I thought of epoxying it, but then I decided on the butterfly just to try something new, and I thought making it out of purpleheart would add a little splash of color to the white table top.

[lowell holmes]

On the issue of tapering on a table saw, I might suggest building a jig. I made a pencil post bed for a daughter that had four tapered legs. I made a jig that matched the tapers and was able to make good tapers. I'm sure you can find taper jig plans on line, if you can't and want one, I will be glad to make a sketch showing one. It just takes a piece of plywood and a good rip blade.

[Doug Garson]

You could try these first and only resort to trimming the legs if they don't stabilize the table.
http://www.leevalley.com/en/Hardware/page.aspx?p=50308&cat=3,40993,41285&ap=1

[Mike Ontko]

On the side topic of table saw tapering jigs, I made this one: http://www.finewoodworking.com/how-to/video/tablesaw-tapering-jig-is-safer-and-faster.aspx for a coffee table project and would recommend it.

Another thing occurred to me, similar to Danny's suggestion, would be to use your table saw to trim all of the legs to the same height. Lay the table on its side with the table surface against the rip fence, run it through on one side and then flip it over for the other. You could build a sled/jig to ensure a more accurate alignment and hold the table a little steadier through the cuts.

[Chris Merriam]

Well I did the deed last night. I ended up shimming the two outer back legs. Tried to shim the front legs but shim wouldn't fit underneath, so they were close enough already. My chalk line was loaded up with permanent chalk, so I just measured the height of one shim (1/16th) and the other shim (2/16ths). I decided to start small and take 1/16th out of the center leg. I got out some playing cards and stacked them up til they measured 1/16th with my caliper, then used a flush cut saw to cut the leg in place. It took a while to saw through the inch thick bottom leg, but eventually I got there. Next, I flipped the desk over and quickly hit the cut surface with 80 grit on the random orbit sander to smooth it out. Since the front center leg was a tad too high too, I gave it the same sander treatment, just to knock it down a hair and get some of the weight to transfer more to the outer legs. The sanding of course was not perfectly level but it got the job done. It's "close enough" now, and to the point it should have been in the first place had I not messed up the glue up. Now I just need to pick up some felt pads and install tonight and I'll be all done with it. Now I just need the wife to agree on some drawer pulls and I'll be all done with it. Thanks all for your help and suggestions!