shaper insert head(s)?

[Jared Sankovich]

So I recently picked up a delta 43-375 3hp 3/4" spindle shaper. I already have a 1" spindle on its way. I have been looking at insert heads, "euro block" type profiling, rabbiting and raised panel.

I was specifically looking @ cmt and amana for the profiling and rabbiting heads, but am open to any brand. The only panel raising head I've found small enough diameter for the delta seems to be the freud rp2000.

Can anyone recommend a setup? these would just be for general home shop usage.

[Dave Cav]

If you are looking for generic 3/4" brazed carbide cutters, I have a bunch of Grizzly stuff that seems to work fine, price is good. Better selection and more money go with Freeborn, very nice stuff, and the will do custom tooling for you for a reasonable price. They made a pair of tennoning heads for me that work very well.

I also have an Amana eurostyle head; it works fine but I don't use it very much. It is marked for machine use, which means it's intended to be used with a power feeder, but I have had good success using manual feed and taking small cuts. I think the big euro-block style heads are really pushing the upper limit of what a Delta HD shaper can run.

[Peter Quinn]

I used the rp2000 when I had a delta hd, did a fine job, it's a fairly light head so easy to spin. I also used a large steel freeborn panel raiser equally effectively on a 3/4" spindle, but mostly in mdf and softer hardwoods. Primary limitation with the delta shaper is regardless of spindle size it's got the same small bearings and short yoke underneath, so there are limits to the depth of cut per pass it can handle, and probably limits to the diameter of cutters you should spin. My minimax has a chart in the manual that very specifically details what weight and diameter of tooling should be spun at what height on the spindle, and iir it also relates depth of cut too. Not the easiest chart to read, but the point is understand there is a relationship between cutter weight, spindle height, tooling diameter and depth of cut. Should be obvious but you should always use the lowest spindle height possible and the lowest position of cutter on the spindle, ie as few bushing below the cutter as possible.

I used an Amana profile pro set up very effectively, cabinet sets go very well, entry doors work but are pushing it a bit hard for a single pass, larger molding profiles should be staged in multiple passes. I would think a 4" aluminum rabbit head would be a good option, a 20mm steel head would probably spin ok, it's just a lot more weight to spin. The amana and cmt insert heads are all excellent products as far as cut quality. Larger steel insert heads, like 125mmx50mm, probably a bit much for that shaper. The delta was sort of the de facto standard for small shop shaper work for decades, it's a highly capable and productive machine when used within its capacities. Insert tooling is great, I would also consider some of the smaller diameter braised tooling options for that machine. They are very cost effective for personal use in small shop. Insert tooling has benefits of quick cutter change time and reduced sharpening cost, lower effective down time, etc, that you may never fully utilize as a single user at home, and some of the larger diameter insert heads may compromise that shapers internals.

[Jared Sankovich]

I used the rp2000 when I had a delta hd, did a fine job, it's a fairly light head so easy to spin. I also used a large steel freeborn panel raiser equally effectively on a 3/4" spindle, but mostly in mdf and softer hardwoods. Primary limitation with the delta shaper is regardless of spindle size it's got the same small bearings and short yoke underneath, so there are limits to the depth of cut per pass it can handle, and probably limits to the diameter of cutters you should spin. My minimax has a chart in the manual that very specifically details what weight and diameter of tooling should be spun at what height on the spindle, and iir it also relates depth of cut too. Not the easiest chart to read, but the point is understand there is a relationship between cutter weight, spindle height, tooling diameter and depth of cut. Should be obvious but you should always use the lowest spindle height possible and the lowest position of cutter on the spindle, ie as few bushing below the cutter as possible.

I used an Amana profile pro set up very effectively, cabinet sets go very well, entry doors work but are pushing it a bit hard for a single pass, larger molding profiles should be staged in multiple passes. I would think a 4" aluminum rabbit head would be a good option, a 20mm steel head would probably spin ok, it's just a lot more weight to spin. The amana and cmt insert heads are all excellent products as far as cut quality. Larger steel insert heads, like 125mmx50mm, probably a bit much for that shaper. The delta was sort of the de facto standard for small shop shaper work for decades, it's a highly capable and productive machine when used within its capacities. Insert tooling is great, I would also consider some of the smaller diameter braised tooling options for that machine. They are very cost effective for personal use in small shop. Insert tooling has benefits of quick cutter change time and reduced sharpening cost, lower effective down time, etc, that you may never fully utilize as a single user at home, and some of the larger diameter insert heads may compromise that shapers internals.

Thanks for the information. I was really surprised at how small the spindle cartridge and bearings actually are when I got the shaper. The indexable multi profile heads seemed like a better value than brazed carbide. The cmt 40mm profiles seemed relatively inexpensive when I was looking at them.

[Peter Quinn]

Thanks for the information. I was really surprised at how small the spindle cartridge and bearings actually are when I got the shaper. The indexable multi profile heads seemed like a better value than brazed carbide. The cmt 40mm profiles seemed relatively inexpensive when I was looking at them.

I'd suggest the value depends on how many lineal feet of material you will,be running. The indexed heads have relatively inexpensive knives, lots of useful profiles, average profile runs around $22? The heads come in aluminum or steel, work great on a delta had shaper. But you are looking at maybe 5000 lf on a set of knives. That may be more than you need, could be less. A braised carbide head should give between 30k-50k lf per sharpening at the right feed speed, most can be sharpened multiple times, so long run the carbide is usually cheaper. Carbide insert heads cost even more up front, but knife changes are cheaper and quicker than braised, and the quality of cut from insert carbide approaches or exceeds sharp HSS in most cases. Again, the value perspective depends on your needs. I have a couple of amana profile pro heads and really like them for their stock profiles, much cheaper than brazed dedicated cutters for short runs, lots of options for the initial $100 or so investment in the head.

[John Lankers]

I am doing exactly what Peter is suggesting, the knives are cheap, the selection of profiles is almost endless and the cutterheads are cheap on eBay. For short runs and home use it's a good setup IMO, but be aware the steel heads can be heavy.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Jared, I would select a set with chip limiters for hand fed use.

They'll be marked MAN for manual feeding.

I like the Euro block heads, the knives are inexpensive, good for a thousand or so metres of material (solid wood only).

A rebate head would also be useful, perhaps a 125mm X 50mm carbide type............Regards, Rod.

[Peter Quinn]

Something like these (http://www.amanatool.com/61465-insert-carbide-aluminum-rabbet-125mm-dia-x-50mm-x-1-1-4-bore.html) in aluminum is an excellent choice. I went with a 4zX 125mmX 50mm steel head from garniga because I got it for a steal on end of year tax right off blow out, I figured get the big head and it handles pretty much anything including pattern work. But it's probably way too much weight in steel to spin that size head on a delta HD shaper, and realistically I almost never come close to using the whole 50mm cutting height, often it's more liability than asset. A 40mm aluminum head might be easier to spin and more cost effective? some day I plan to get a second smaller height head myself....someday.

I second Rods suggestion to use the chip limiter heads if you are hand feeding, but I don't know where you can actually buy them in the U.S. In 1.25" bore? Or where to source the knives? Felder sells the heads and knives in 30mm, maybe others, anybody got a domestic source to point to? I've yet to find one but haven't looked particular hard. A power feeder might be easier to acquire.

[Rod Sheridan]

Felder have this head on sale in the USA now.

http://us.feldershop.com/en-US/en-US/en-US/en-US/Moulding/Moulding-tooling/Universal-Profile-Cutter-Heads/Universal-Safety-Cutterhead.html

This kit is also available from them.

http://us.feldershop.com/en-US/en-US/en-US/en-US/Moulding/Moulding-tooling/Universal-Profile-Cutter-Heads/SET-Offer-Universal-Safety-Cutter-Head-oxid.html

Laguna tools also have a kit with 20 pairs of knives and limiters

http://www.lagunatools.com/accessories/shaper-cutter/Shaper-Start-Up-Set_2

Regards, Rod.

[Dave Cav]

Does anyone know if 40mm knives are available in cope and stick sets for cabinet doors? I have looked through the Amana catalog and don't think I have seen any.

[Jeff Duncan]

Does anyone know if 40mm knives are available in cope and stick sets for cabinet doors? I have looked through the Amana catalog and don't think I have seen any.

If you can't find them you can also buy the blanks and have them ground into any profile you like;)

FWIW I prefer the 6 piece sets like Freeborn sells as they offer a LOT more flexibility. They're more expensive for sure, but with a set I can do 2 different profiles as well as glass doors and can even run a "blank" profile for those wine cooler panel doors everyone is buying.

good luck,
JeffD

Oh….one more thing! As far as the Euro heads go brand is pretty much a moot point in my opinion. I've run Amana, Freud, Stehle, and one other I think may have been CMT? Anyway there was no real difference in the performance of the heads as far as I'm concerned. I'd take whichever one shows up conveniently for the best price;)

[Jared Sankovich]

Thanks everyone for all the input.

I realized how light the shaper really is tonight while measuring spindle runout/tram I could grab the table and with some very minor force deflect the spindle .001-.002"

[Clint Baxter]

Does anyone know if 40mm knives are available in cope and stick sets for cabinet doors? I have looked through the Amana catalog and don't think I have seen any.

Take at look at F096 and F097 on this page, http://www.toolstoday.com/p-5434-40mm-steel-knives-for-profile-pro-insert-shaper-cutters-pair.aspx

Is this what you're after?

Clint

[Mike Schuch]

For my home shop I have had excellent results with Grizzly carbide shaper cutters! I have never worn one out! If I were a production shop I am sure I would buy a Freeborn or other expensive cutter that will last longer but for a home shop (at least my home shop) the Grizzly cutters do an excellent job. I MUCH prefer my solid carbide cutters to my insert head cutter. Most insert head cutters are quite big and heavy requiring a big shaper with huge bearings to get good results. I think you would be much happier with individual carbide cutters. It would take a lot of profiles to break even with an insert head cutter vs solid cutters.

[Peter Quinn]

Felder have this head on sale in the USA now.

http://us.feldershop.com/en-US/en-US/en-US/en-US/Moulding/Moulding-tooling/Universal-Profile-Cutter-Heads/Universal-Safety-Cutterhead.html

This kit is also available from them.

http://us.feldershop.com/en-US/en-US/en-US/en-US/Moulding/Moulding-tooling/Universal-Profile-Cutter-Heads/SET-Offer-Universal-Safety-Cutter-Head-oxid.html

Laguna tools also have a kit with 20 pairs of knives and limiters

http://www.lagunatools.com/accessories/shaper-cutter/Shaper-Start-Up-Set_2

Regards, Rod.

I see Felder now sells the 40mm limiting head in 1.25" bore.....but I can't find a link to the individual knives and limiters, which I know they used to sell and list independently. And they have the kit, which may or may not be the knives you want. There are over 100 profiles in the standard 40mm euro block set. Laguna offers the "kit" with a selection of knives and limiters, but when you follow the links for additional knives...its knives only no limiters. Not sure why nobody has the knives and limiters program down here a la cart in the states....but I haven't found anybody that does yet. Conversation always goes..."we can get anything you need...." Which equals additional time and cost.....which is very much contrary to the beauty of the euro block system, and is part of the reason I've never switched to limiting heads.

[Mike Delyster]

Dimar Canada has a multi-profile head in 1-1/4" bore that accepts either 40 or 50 millimeter knives with limiters. They have lots of 40mm profiles with limiters and a few 50mm knives with limiters.

http://dimar-canada.com/products.php?m=56&idp=44

[Peter Quinn]

Dimar Canada has a multi-profile head in 1-1/4" bore that accepts either 40 or 50 millimeter knives with limiters. They have lots of 40mm profiles with limiters and a few 50mm knives with limiters.

http://dimar-canada.com/products.php?m=56&idp=44

I have dimar's site book marked because they have the best line drawings of the euro block system I've seen,with distance from center to minor radius noted so you can buy bearings to match I can't even get this info from my US dealer....I asked for it, was told quote" that's a great idea to list all that....but we don''t have any of that info,can you email us a link to that?" Dimar sells in Canada, don't think they have a presence in the U.S. Follow their site to the " find a dealer" links, all Canadian. I can order the euro block knives from GB sources too, but I'm not interested in paying VAT and international shipping on a cheap set of cutters. I think the whole system is made by a Swiss company that sells to many resellers, and who sells them depends on your market. We don't get access to limiters here because they are not required, and because they are not required people don't order them, and because people don't order them they are not stocked, and because they are not stocked people don't use them, and.....this feels like catch 22 squared. I can buy corrugated back heads with limiters from Leitz, but they aren't usually used here either for reasons mentioned above.

[Jared Sankovich]

Well I finally got the insert head, and a bigger shaper to run them. The head came in today so I spent a few minutes playing around with a couple profiles.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v695/jar944/rps20151202_193417_634_zpswf98g7o6.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v695/jar944/rps20151202_202737_818_zps9hrechum.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v695/jar944/rps20151202_200817_851_zpsdelaivdb.jpg

[Martin Wasner]

I'm extremely impressed with my Dimensions In Tooling insert heads. They aren't cheap though. You'll have better than $600 into each head with backers and an extra set of knives. I've never seen profiles come out as clean as what these heads are capable of. Far superior to the Freeborn or LRH heads I ran before.