Shaper - thin tongues

[Mike Berrevoets]

First time shaper user. I'm making some rail and stile doors with a set of infinity shaker cutters. I'm using a coping sled with some toggle clamps to hold down the stock.

When I run the groves the grove is 0.254 inches. When I run the cope the tongue is only 0.245 inches. Result is a loose fitting tongue. I glued up a sample door and it seems OK but the fit sure seems too sloppy to me.

The cutter set is 3 individual pieces for each set of cutters. The cope is two cutter heads with a bushing/spacer. I'm thinking I could find some shims and shim up the top cutter to create a thicker tongue.

But, am I missing something else? I'm thinking infinity's manufacturing tolerances are pretty tight so I have a hard time believing I'm not the one doing something wrong or there is an issue with my methods.

Any ideas? Or is shimming just part of the shaper process?

the upside, I like the shaper compared to the router. Nice clean cuts. No high pitched whine. And when I switch between the cope cutter and the grove cutter I just take out the two 3/8 spacers on the spindle and I don't need to touch the height adjustment. (Cope is on a 3/4 inch thick sled)

[Martin Wasner]

If your shaper is in a mobile base, take it off.
Are you using a power feed?
What rpm are you running? On my Powermatic colored Grizzly, the cut quality running 7k rpm was far more accurate than 10k rpm.

[Mike Cutler]

What Martin said, and also, yes, sometimes you have to shim. Infinity sells sets of shims on Page 43 of their current catalog. Problem is that they are .015" thick, and you're off by .009". Some folks also just use she a sheet(s) of paper with a 3/4" hole in the center.

That seems like a lot to me. You may want to call Infinity and see what they say about it.

[Mike Berrevoets]

If your shaper is in a mobile base, take it off.
Are you using a power feed?
What rpm are you running? On my Powermatic colored Grizzly, the cut quality running 7k rpm was far more accurate than 10k rpm.

no mobile base and no power feed. It's an old Delta HD shaper. Running the grooves I have feather boards holding the work piece down and a push sled with a hook on the end so the piece rides flat on the table but I can hold it against the fence without my fingers being near the work piece or cutter.

to be honest, I don't know the rpm. The cuts are consistent. I.e. I'm not getting tight in one location and loose in another.

[rudy de haas]

If your cutters came with the machine ? .. you may be the victim of poor re-sharpening.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Mike, sounds like the cutters need shimming.

I would talk to Infinity about it..............Regards, Rod.

[Mike Berrevoets]

If your cutters came with the machine ? .. you may be the victim of poor re-sharpening.

Cutters are brand new.

[Mark Wooden]

Check your spindle for runout. It could just be you need to remove, clean the tapers and re-install it but it may be slightly bent.

[Kevin Jenness]

You can get a set of shims in multiples from .002" to .030" from any reputable tool distributor such as Connecticut Saw or Charles G.G.Schmidt.

[Peter Quinn]

Chances are your spindle is not perpendicular to your table. I've owned a delta HD, this is pretty common, you can shim it out but it's no joy. This makes the grooves bigger and the tongues smaller, may result in a slightly poor fitting cope/sticking which often you won't notice or gets clamped out anyway. It makes sense that your grooves are over by almost the same amount that your tongues are under, if you look at the cutters you realize it adds to the groves and subtracts from the tongues. Try chucking a straight edge between two bushings with your shaper unplugged and spin it slowly as you turn the spindle by hand, directions are on the freeborn website. If the straight edge doesn't touch the table equally at all points of the spindles rotation it's not perpendicular. Easiest solution is to shim the cope cutters.

I used to spin an infinity cabinet set on my old delta HD and always had to shim it even after shimming the spindle as close to perpendicular as I could. Same set on my minimax.....perfect with no shims.

[Dave Cav]

Sounds like you might need some shims. I just bought a bag of 10 3/4" .002 brass shim washers from McMaster-Carr for six bucks plus shipping.

[Peter Quinn]

if you go to the freeborn tool site and click on catalogue request yiu can down load a PDF of their catalogue, page 7 discusses how to check spindle alignment, good visual and written description of two methods to verify your shaper, that's the best place to start.

[Martin Wasner]

I agree with Peter, your spindle either has a bunch of run out, or is misaligned with the table. Being the way your parts are coming out, it's likely misalignment.

[Mike Berrevoets]

Just so I'm clear. Runout is the spindle "wobbling" and misalignment would be that it isn't perpendicular to the surface in all directions?

can either be solved by shimming the cutters? Not solving the problem but at least getting acceptable fitting cope and stick joints?

[Martin Wasner]

Correct.

You're not really fixing it, more like masking it by shimming the cutters. But, if that gives you an acceptable result, then run with it.

[John Huds0n]

Betterly Una-Gauge

Over the years I have collected a bunch of "precision' measuring devices to use with my woodworking tools. Align-it for my table saw, different height gauges for my router table and shaper, etc etc

I wish I would have known about the Una-Gauge from the start. Had the same problem - brand new set of Freeborn cope and stick cutters on a 1 year old MiniMax combination machine. I didn't want to think the problem was with the MiniMax and even sent the cutters in to Freeborn to have them checked - and they were right on the money and Freeborn even included a test sample when they sent them back to prove it.

Ended up getting the Una-Gauge and solved my problem. As others have mentioned, you could just shim the cutter or buy an adjustable one, but I think you would be better off in the long run by actually fixing it.

My spindle run-out was good - the problem was the spindle was not perpendicular to the table which required some brass shims. It took some time to get it right but now I am happy with it. If you don't want to buy the UnaGauge - look up in the Freeborn Catalog to see how they check the spindle to see if it is perpendicular with a steel rule and feeler gauges

youtube video on the Una-Gauge
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kYP5q6X7eA

[Peter Quinn]

The uni gauge looks awesome. I made something similar for my shaper using stuff I had around and a dial indicator from a magnetic indicator base. Makes identifying the problem easier, didn't make solving it any more fun, bu at least you can see where the error is and exactly what it is. The delta has three points of contact on the yoke/cartridge assembly, and getting it perpendicular if it is not takes some patience, a good dial indicator set up sure helps versus feeler gauges. Shimming the cope is probably easier, you will have some minor mis alignment of parts on the molded part of the sticking, but this can usually be clamped out.

[Mike Berrevoets]

Update: I bought a dial indicator and magnetic stand from harbor freight to check the runout. I'm not 100% confident the setup was solid but after turning it by hand multiple times I was coming up with at most 0.002 inches difference. I have no idea of that is bad or good....

i checked the spindle perpendicularity (is that a word?) to the table using the method in the Freeborn catalog with the straight edge clamped on the spindle and turning the spindle by hand and checking with feeler gauges on the quadrants. Spindle was tilted to the back being off about 0.021 inches about 6 inches from the spindle. I loosened the bolts holding the carriage to the table and shimmed up one side with some folded over metal duct sealing tap. (All I had that was thin and relatively non-compressible) tightened every thing up again and checked for perpendicularity again. Pretty close, about 0.003 inches off front to back 6 inches from the spindle.

the real test was in cutting the cope and stick. It is much tighter but not quite to the point of sticking together. The tongues measured about 0.248 inches and the groves was about 0.252 inches. I glued up the cope and stick into a "T" and I'll break it tomorrow to see how it breaks.

Im not sure fiddling around with the shaper setup will get it much closer and I'm afraid I might make it worse. Probably time for a shim on the cope cutter.

thanks all for the help in trying to figure this out. I was going to take the easy way out and just shim the cutter but measuring and messing with the spindle alignment was a worthwhile task just so I know what it is doing and how it works.

[Rod Sheridan]

Mike, with only 0.004" difference I wouldn't go any tighter as you need room for glue.............Regards, Rod.

[J.R. Rutter]

The wood will swell as the glue soaks in and it should all lock up nicely after a minute. Good job on the tune up.

[lowell holmes]

I think you have a common problem. I have a set of Amana cutters that do the same thing.

It has two cutters and a flat spacer that allows the tounge to be left when shaping.

If you will shim with heavy paper between the middle spacer and either the bottom or top cutter, the tounge will be thicker. You can make the tounge thickness any thing you need.

[Mike Schuch]

Chances are your spindle is not perpendicular to your table. I've owned a delta HD, this is pretty common, you can shim it out but it's no joy. This makes the grooves bigger and the tongues smaller, may result in a slightly poor fitting cope/sticking which often you won't notice or gets clamped out anyway. It makes sense that your grooves are over by almost the same amount that your tongues are under, if you look at the cutters you realize it adds to the groves and subtracts from the tongues. Try chucking a straight edge between two bushings with your shaper unplugged and spin it slowly as you turn the spindle by hand, directions are on the freeborn website. If the straight edge doesn't touch the table equally at all points of the spindles rotation it's not perpendicular. Easiest solution is to shim the cope cutters.

I used to spin an infinity cabinet set on my old delta HD and always had to shim it even after shimming the spindle as close to perpendicular as I could. Same set on my minimax.....perfect with no shims.


BINGO!!! This is the exact problem I had on my ancient Walker Turner shaper! I spent an entire day shimming the top to get the spindle perfectly perpendicular to the table... then WHAM!... perfect lock miter joints EVERY time with no fuss! I also found that the spindle shifts just a smidgen when the height adjustment is locked or unlocked. This made me make sure I lock the height every time... which should ALWAYS be done anyways!... lesson being check for perpendicular with the height adjustment locked!

I clamped a 12" heavy metal ruler from a machinists square on the spindle then mounted a gauge to the ruler about 6" away from the spindle and swung the gauge 360 by hand to get my spindle as perfectly perpendicular as I could. It made a huge difference in cutting joints that demand close tolerances!

Shimming the cutter is just putting a bandaid on the problem!

[Peter Quinn]

Update: I bought a dial indicator and magnetic stand from harbor freight to check the runout. I'm not 100% confident the setup was solid but after turning it by hand multiple times I was coming up with at most 0.002 inches difference. I have no idea of that is bad or good....

i checked the spindle perpendicularity (is that a word?) to the table using the method in the Freeborn catalog with the straight edge clamped on the spindle and turning the spindle by hand and checking with feeler gauges on the quadrants. Spindle was tilted to the back being off about 0.021 inches about 6 inches from the spindle. I loosened the bolts holding the carriage to the table and shimmed up one side with some folded over metal duct sealing tap. (All I had that was thin and relatively non-compressible) tightened every thing up again and checked for perpendicularity again. Pretty close, about 0.003 inches off front to back 6 inches from the spindle.

the real test was in cutting the cope and stick. It is much tighter but not quite to the point of sticking together. The tongues measured about 0.248 inches and the groves was about 0.252 inches. I glued up the cope and stick into a "T" and I'll break it tomorrow to see how it breaks.

Im not sure fiddling around with the shaper setup will get it much closer and I'm afraid I might make it worse. Probably time for a shim on the cope cutter.

thanks all for the help in trying to figure this out. I was going to take the easy way out and just shim the cutter but measuring and messing with the spindle alignment was a worthwhile task just so I know what it is doing and how it works.

Sounds like you found and fixed the problem. I don't think most sets are designed to make the tongue and groove exactly the same, the tongue should be a little under.

[J.R. Rutter]

Interestingly, when I retooled cope and stick patterns with custom insert heads a few years ago, all of the tongues fit too tight on the test inserts. The supplier said that they build them that way as a default because most people run them on equipment that has spindle runout or is out of square. They had to revise and remake the cope inserts to get the proper fit. Point being: Misalignment is apparently a common problem.

[Peter Quinn]

Interestingly, when I retooled cope and stick patterns with custom insert heads a few years ago, all of the tongues fit too tight on the test inserts. The supplier said that they build them that way as a default because most people run them on equipment that has spindle runout or is out of square. They had to revise and remake the cope inserts to get the proper fit. Point being: Misalignment is apparently a common problem.

I've always wondered.....how does a spindle cartridge get misaligned on a shaper? I get the runout issue, but the alignment is not really a wear part, especially on Italian style machines. Come to think of it I haven't had much issue with run out or alignment on the Italian machines I've used, but nearly every powermatic or delta I've encountered has need some help.

[Rod Sheridan]

Peter, it's all in how well machined the pieces are.

Accuracy costs money..........Rod.

[J.R. Rutter]

I've always wondered.....how does a spindle cartridge get misaligned on a shaper? I get the runout issue, but the alignment is not really a wear part, especially on Italian style machines. Come to think of it I haven't had much issue with run out or alignment on the Italian machines I've used, but nearly every powermatic or delta I've encountered has need some help.

I don't know - there must be lots of light duty machines in use by medium sized shops. I've never had an issue even with severely abused heavy duty shapers either.

[Rod Sheridan]

I don't know - there must be lots of light duty machines in use by medium sized shops. I've never had an issue even with severely abused heavy duty shapers either.

Money J.R., Money.

Buy a cheap piece of machinery, what do you expect?

Precision and quality control checks cost money.............Regards, Rod.

[Phil Thien]

This is yet a another fascinating thread.

[Steve Welch]

I purchased a General International 1 1/4" shaper with a 1hp. powerfeed a year ago and used it for the first time over Christmas. I purchased Royce//Ayr cutters. I coped all of the rails then retooled and cut all of the groves in rails and stiles, did a test fit and it was perfect. I then stacked the back cutter and RP cutter and did a test cut on a piece of scrap. The tenon on the edge of the test piece was really loose when I placed it in the groove of the stiles. I took my feeler gauge and found the cut was 45 Thou. to thin. I have ordered a bunch of shims to spread the cutters apart and hopefully get a nice tight fit. I was very lucky to find a good supplier of metal shims, they have them in all different thicknesses from .002 to .020 This was the first rails and stiles I have ever made and found a little difficulty coping the rails by trying to hold them tight to a mitre slide, the cope cutter just wanted to push the stock away from the tool, not giving a perfectly square cut. I then scoured the net and found Infinity tools COP-101 sled and ordered it right away. I am sure that now I will be able to get a true cut. All I have to do now is figure out how to use my powerfeed.

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