Graco Sprayer is out, Now what? HVLP, turbine....Lost

[Scott Brandstetter]

Thanks to those that responded to my thread about the Graco Sprayer. I am convinced of two things
1. A paint sprayer with a compressor is the way to go
2. I have no idea what paint sprayer to get and I don't know how big of compressor to get
Other than the above, I am ready to start spraying furniture.

So I have two compressors, a small pancake and an Ingersoll Rand single stage twin stack that puts out 4.4 cfm at 90 psi. I have a cheap harbor freight spray gun that I haven't tried to use, and that's it. I guess my biggest problem, and why I feel paralyzed, is that I don't know how the two things, gun and compressor relate to each other.

For those that are nice enough to respond, I am simply looking for a setup that will spray both latex paint and various stains, and is not a fortune to get into. I would love to not have to buy a compressor but if you tell me I need to, I will, just let me know what the minimum specs should be.

I'm sorry for the long thread but I really need help from the more experienced folks on here. Thanks so much in advance.

[Mike Cutler]

Scott

I am no expert by any stretch, but have you considered an Earlex sprayer. The 5500 is completely self contained, and ready to go out of the box. Fill it up, select the correct nozzle, plug it in an go.

By the time you get done buying what is needed to parallel your compressors, adding a downstream moisture trap and dryer, buy a quality gun and hose setup, you might not be as far away from buying a self contained unit as you think. HVLP guns take a bit of air.

Harbor frieght also has some LVLP gun setups, but the guys I know that use them ,consider them one or two time throw aways. Still and option though.

[Scott Brandstetter]

Mike
Thanks for the response. I have considered the earlex and read many reviews. From what I can tell, other than the loud noise, it seems to get high reviews. Do you have one? It can handle both latex and stains fairly easily?

[Mike Cutler]

Scott

I do not have one. I was loaned a 3500, and a 5500, a few years back to spray a wipe on varnish finish over a large area.IIRC. We thinned the wipe on finish about 5% for flow control. I've meant to get one, bit I keep going back and forth on the issue,a nd so far haven't had a ned for anything than finishing by hand. That's going to change here soon, and I am looking at the 5500, the Apollo's and the Turbinaire units.

I have not sprayed paint with one, but I don't see why they won't work. It's actually supposed to be their "cuppa" so to speak.You may need a latex thinner. If Jason Roehl is about, He'd be one of the best resources, as he paints for a living.

[John Schweikert]

I've used a Fuji turbine for years with great success. I've tried on most anything to know what it's right for and what's it's not. Success has been with spraying a shed exterior, painting furniture, painting steel, painting ceilings, mudroom cabinetry and other smaller projects. My father has an Earlex and is quite happy. I would not paint the exterior of a house, that is reserved for airless. but doing trim work is fine outside.

I would say go with a turbine system over a compressor and gun. A turbine is more transportable, no issues with water or oil in lines. Cleaning the guns is simple depending on the solvent needed or water based. Next few months I'll spray my boat inside and out with the same Fuji. I have several guns, siphon and gravity. I use the 3M PPS cups for easy refills and cleanup.

I've done the compressor route; but for hobby, home and small professional projects which can be in any location, a turbine has been straight forward.

Apollo, Fuji, Earlex and others all make comparable turbine systems. Having multiple spray tip sizes and cup sizes allows any project.

[John Huds0n]

I had a Fuji 3 stage HVLP and it really struggled trying to spray latex, even when diluted. Also, it felt like I had a garden hose attached to it, even though I was using the smaller 'whip'

Graco TrueCoat - is fine for larger items, but it felt like I was spraying paint with a garden hose

Considered purchasing a high end Appollo HVLP but after doing a lot of research I settled on a compressor driven HVLP gun. For me it made sense because I already owned a good compressor and I had no need for 'portability'

What I really like about my system - is a purchased a 2 quart pressure pot that has a wide opening. I can literally place a 'container' of paint - pint jars, quart cans, etc inside and when I am done, I pull the container out, put the lid on and put it away for another day. I have 6' hoses, so it only takes a couple ounces of material - which will drain back down into the pot when done. The best part - I can increase the pressure on the pot to FORCE the heavier latex paints to the tip of the gun - no need to thin, even with the heavy water based primers. The gun will spray at any angle and is a lot less cumbersome.

To clean - let the paint drain back into the container in the pot and put that away. Fill the pot with hot soapy water and spray that through, and then take the gun apart and finish up with the threads etc

http://homesteadfinishingproducts.com/products-we-offer/hvlp-spray-equipment/ca-technologies-guntank-setups/

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[Jeff Monson]

I dont think you are going to find a sprayer that does both well. I have sprayed with several different types of guns, but IMO a sprayer made for lacquers and stains does not spray latex well. A compressor driven HVLP will get you going on the cheap, they dont require a ton of pressure so a smaller compressor will work. I have turned out some really nice cabinet and furniture sprayed with a $80 HVLP and my 20 gallon compressor. I upgraded to a Graco finish pro 9.0, it does a wonderful job of spraying lacquers, stains, sealers....but it takes alot of thinning and a big tip to get a decent latex paint through it. Thats my .02, get that harbor freight gun out and start some trial and error with it, you will learn alot just messing around with that.

[John TenEyck]

Compressor driven HVLP guns have a wider range of capability than a turbine unit. If you want one gun that can do it all you need one where you can change the needles and air caps. A pressure assisted gun offers even more capability. My advise is to call Jeff Jewitt at Homestead Finishing and discuss your needs with him and see what he recommends. You'll save a lot of time and frustration, and probably money because you'll get the right equipment the first time.

John

[Peter Quinn]

Compressor driven HVLP guns have a wider range of capability than a turbine unit. If you want one gun that can do it all you need one where you can change the needles and air caps. A pressure assisted gun offers even more capability. My advise is to call Jeff Jewitt at Homestead Finishing and discuss your needs with him and see what he recommends. You'll save a lot of time and frustration, and probably money because you'll get the right equipment the first time.

John

Yes, this, call Jeff. I bought my present hvlp conversion setup based on a conversation with Jeff at a show, I actually bought a competitors gun but his advice on set ups was invaluable. He sells excellent equipment. We have an air assisted airless at work that will spray it all, runs about $5k! You still have to change tips. Latex is thick like mud, stain is closer to water, lacquer falls in between, so that's a variety of tip sets to deal with, no one point and shoot will do it all without adjusting the hole it comes out of. I still suggest moving away from latex paints for finishing other than walls, trim and siding, there are better coatings for your furniture and cabinets.

I'm using an Asturo WB Gravity feed conversion gun, conversion guns turn hi pressure air into hi volume low pressure spray at the gun, they list the SCFM requirements required for the gun, so you match your compressor to that. Gun first, compressor to suit. Turbines are matched and self sufficient.

[Bradley Gray]

I have a graco turbine/ gun set that I've used for about 10 years. It came with 3 needle/nozzle sets. It does Ok at spraying latex and really shines spraying WB poly.

I agree with Peter about avoiding latex paint. I would start with finding the right finish and then talk to some one who sells spray equipment to find the right match. If you have the pockets for it, one of the airless assist systems would save you time and money in the long run.

I would be extremely cautious picking a non toxic finish for children's furniture - pick up just about any woodworking trade magazine and there will be an article about some company being sued over dangerous children's furniture.

[Curt Harms]

An Earlex will spray thinned 'latex' though I'm pretty sure tinted water based lacquer would be a better choice. 'Latex' is probably not a good choice for cabinetry and furniture anyway, it can stay 'blocky' (sticky) long term. A friend needed some cheap white utility cabinetry so I used some latex wall paint thinned with floetrol and distilled water then topcoated with water based poly. That seems to have worked but is not a 'high-end' solution. It sprayed okay though. I did spray some outdoor trellises with an 'acrylic enamel' that produced a much better surface and is proving durable. I suspect part of the reason the Earlex does as well as it does with thicker finishes and low air pressure (2 stage blower) is due to the cup being pressurized rather than suction. It will certainly never replace an airless (or probably 4 wheel turbines)for thicker finishes.

[Matthew Hills]

Scott,
Why are you interested in spraying latex?

In your earlier post about the graco, you said that you were interested in applying paint to children's furniture.

When I refinished my son's desk, I used General Finishes milk paint sprayed with an earlex and their wider tip. Worked well. This isn't a true milk paint, but an acrylic that looks like milk paint. I also applied a wb varnish as a top coat, but don't think that is strictly necessary.

I have used latex in some earlier, hand-painted built-in projects and didn't like the result. The paint remains somewhat rubbery and sticky.

Matt

[John TenEyck]

OK, it's time for me to point out again that latex doesn't mean wall paint, although many associate the term with that product. All latex means is polymer water emulsion. It encompasses wall paint as well as what many now refer to as water borne paints, and a host of other products. Those who have cautioned the OP not to use latex wall paint have offered good advise as it's not designed for cabinets or other surfaces subjected to hard use. I've used SW's Pro Classic Acrylic Enamel, what many would call a water borne paint and think it to be superior by inference. But if you look at the label or PDS you'll see that SW refers to it as a latex paint. It is superior to wall paint for cabinets and trim work, but it's still a latex paint. The difference in performance stems from the choice of resins used to make it.

John

[Bob Grier]

Hi Scott, I recently painted trim and doors with BM alkyd semi gloss white and water based poly over stained window trim. The painted trim was mostly installed but some was painted and then installed. After the fact I think lacquer might have been a better choice for me but lacking experience and worried about fumes, I stuck with these paints and a respirator. When painting in the garage I used a 900cfm exhaust fan for ventilation with plastic hanging from ceiling to help control overspray.

I started with a small 1.5 hp compressor with 20 gal tank. I called Jeff at Homestead for sprayer advise. At his recommendation I bought LVLP air assisted conversion gun (I bought the QualSpray AM-6008/1Qt with 1.0, 1.3, 1.5mm setups in the LVLP kit) and it worked well for more than 1000 feet of trim, 20 doors and casings, and 11 window casings. Half way through the job, I bought a more powerful used 220v craigslist compressor in the 11 to 12 cfm @ 40psi range which worked better. Better because I didn't have to stop and wait for air after 1 or 2 doors. Actually I ended up buying 3 different compressors: one a compressor from sears (the small one) and two 9+ cfm @ 40 psi off craigslist. The first craigslist one had a leak in the tank and I returned it to the seller. I paid $160 for the Sears, and less than $150 for each of the other larger compressors. They were Sears models too. I sold the small sears one for what I paid although I spent a couple hours cleaning it up after spraying the white paint. After that I moved the larger compressor out side and ran the hose into the garage. I did use a slightly larger diameter hose than what came with the compressor to help minimize pressure/flow loss.

Although I don't know near as much about spraying as others who are giving advice, I can say I did get smooth gloss and semi gloss finishes but I did sand after priming and sometimes between coats. I did have trouble with runs on the doors sometimes. Lack of experience and knowledge. I think an HVLP conversion gun rather than LVLP might have been better choice but I had a small 1.5hp compressor when I bought the gun and it would not have run HVLP. The second compressor I got might have run the HVLP. The 1 quart pressure cup I used on the gun could do both sides of 4 doors with thinned alkyd before refilling.

I would rather have had remote pot so I could position the gun in any direction while spraying but that is more money. Maybe some day.

I am so glad I sprayed rather than brushed. If the surfaces are prepared (sanded smooth), then spraying gives a nice smooth finish. The alkyd I used took long time to harden to the point where boards could be stacked. Maybe 2 weeks. They could be handled after 4 hoursI assume lacquer would cure much faster.

I am inexperienced novice and don't want to say a LVLP/HVLP conversion gun or something similar is the best way to go. Really, all I want to say is that this is what I bought, mainly because it was relatively inexpensive, I had a small compressor used for other purposes. It did work for me. The BM alkyd paint I sprayed did not give as nice of finish as professionally sprayed lacquer finishes that I have seen although I sometimes got results very very close to the same. Sometimes I got a little orange peal and called it good. Sometimes I sanded the orange peal and got smoother surface results on the next coat. The water based poly I used came out really nice. I used Dalys Seafin Aquaspar gloss with the 1mm setup.

I would not use a 1.5hp compressor. I would clean it up, sell it and use the money to buy a used compressor closer to 11 or 12cfm at 40psi ($150) and maybe buy an HVLP gun instead of LVLP assuming air flow would be adequate (I never checked to see if it would work). The size of tank is not that important unless you are using small compressor and spraying small items. Then you can get by with smaller compressor but I would not do that. Too much hassle when tank air quickly looses pressure and affects spraying, even with regulator at tank set to lower pressure. Much better having compressor that can maintain airflow. Turbans don't have a tank. Just need to produce air volume. Talk to Jeff at Homestead for compressor and gun settings on whichever gun you get. Turban system may be better and/or easier for what you want to do, I don't know.

[Scott Brandstetter]

Matt
You bring up an excellent point. I am not sure why I am fixated on "latex" paint other than I don't know about milk paint. I guess what I really want, now that you bring this up is the ability to spray stains (stains as I know them like whats on the shelf at the BORG) and also spray colors (maybe not latex)

To break it down to it's simplest term, I would like to sometimes simply let the natural grain of the wood to show and other times let my customers pick a particular color for their furniture. Not sure I'm making sense.


Scott,
Why are you interested in spraying latex?

In your earlier post about the graco, you said that you were interested in applying paint to children's furniture.

When I refinished my son's desk, I used General Finishes milk paint sprayed with an earlex and their wider tip. Worked well. This isn't a true milk paint, but an acrylic that looks like milk paint. I also applied a wb varnish as a top coat, but don't think that is strictly necessary.

I have used latex in some earlier, hand-painted built-in projects and didn't like the result. The paint remains somewhat rubbery and sticky.

Matt

[Curt Harms]

Matt
You bring up an excellent point. I am not sure why I am fixated on "latex" paint other than I don't know about milk paint. I guess what I really want, now that you bring this up is the ability to spray stains (stains as I know them like whats on the shelf at the BORG) and also spray colors (maybe not latex)

To break it down to it's simplest term, I would like to sometimes simply let the natural grain of the wood to show and other times let my customers pick a particular color for their furniture. Not sure I'm making sense.

No a pro either but I think not needing to spray very viscous materials (wall paint) will make choosing a sprayer easier. I've sprayed water based poly with good results. Spraying a stain then top coating with a water based lacquer or poly is a common technique. Shellac sprays easily and you can use Transtint dyes to get any color in the rainbow then top coat for added durability. You need some ventilation when spraying shellac. I'm not sure what's the best way to get a sprayable opaque color, tinted lacquer?

[lowell holmes]

In an earlier life, I had a Graco airless. it was a good machine. I used it in the building business.

Fast forward to today, I have a HVLP from Harbor freight that cost less than $100. It comes complete, ready to plug in and paint. I find it meets my needs. I have sprayed lacquer based, oil, and water based coatings with it. It comes with it's own air pump.

It is quick, easy to set up, and easy to clean. One of the tool/toy online venders sells the same machine.

[Tom Ewell]

I have a cheap harbor freight spray gun that I haven't tried to use What type is it and why not give it a try? Gotta start somewhere.

See if it will do what you want, get some decent quality interior trim paint (qt or so) and a large pc of cardboard or paper drop cloth as a test screen, setup the gun according to spec. on your biggest compressor, thin the paint 10%, filter the paint, load up the gun and fiddle with the controls to see if it will shoot. Keep thinning until it shoots then try on a test wood piece and check out the results.

Don't necessarily try to 'one coat' it, let it thoroughly dry(per directions) and recoat. If you can get your color right then you may be able to clear coat for sheen and durability if you think you've had to thin it too much.

10% thinning seems to be the max 'sweet spot' for most paint mfgs. endorsement, beyond that they might claim foul. You're not painting bathrooms or exterior surfaces that require full spec of the paint and you want it to be 'non toxic' for the kids so watch for additives like mildewcide.

If you still don't like your setup then seek out the alternatives which have pretty much been established in your threads.

The advantages of ready to spray products are just that... they're ready, most any gun will shoot 'em and the turnaround is much faster. I've had to wait for hours before recoating 'latex', sometimes days before the stuff dries well enough to ship and install (if it's not done on site). I can do two color coats and two clear coats easily in a day with the WB lacquers and out the door quite often the next day.

General Finishes (https://generalfinishes.com/) and Target Coatings (http://targetcoatings.com/products/pigmented-top-coats-interior/em6500-seriespigmented-spray-lacquer/) are the ones I primarily use.
I've only needed to use the white as is (so far) but I understand that Target can match Benjamin Moore colors if you give them the numbers.

[Curt Harms]

Excellent advice, Tom. Experiment a little, it doesn't take long to get a feel for what works and what doesn't.

[Mike Ontko]

Just yesterday, I purchased the Earlex HV5500 from Rockler for use on a current project, based on review information published in FWW or PWW, and found it to be fantastic at spraying GF's High Performance waterborn poly over an initial layer of Zinsser SealCoat (I used the aersol spray can shellac before getting the 5500 because initially I was planning to apply the poly with a brush). I was a concerned at first about how light the spray layer seemed to be (I was using a 1.5mm needle) but the initial coat turned out great.

I was a little concerned about the noise issue as well, but found it to be noticeably quieter than my shop vaccuum (a Rigid 14gal wet/dry). And compared to my DW735, which the neighbors have been hearing a lot of lately, it's just a whisper :)

I don't know that I'll ever use this system for latex paints or even large jobs (I'll be refinishing my deck next summer). Compressor based or airless systems seem much better suited to that task, or even the good ol' brush and roller. But for smaller projects and lighter films, oil based or waterborn, HVLP seems an ideal way to go--thin and very controllable coats with little overspray.

[Jim Becker]

I'll also say that the range of finishes you want to spray don't necessarily lend themselves to a single spray format. I use an HPLV conversion gun with a 60 gallon IR compressor for my spray work. It's great for stains, shellac and the waterborne finishes I use. It was find spraying Benjamin Moore Advance (water borne alkyd suspension with viscosity similar to other water born finishes) but doesn't spray "regular latex paint" well at all. That's better served by an airless system, IMHO.