Fret Saw Really Needed for Dovetails?

[Steve H Graham]

I tried to get into hand dovetailing and face-planted on the first board. I read some place that a famous woodworker was recommending $10 Zona Razor saws instead of pricier saws, so I gave one a try, and I couldn't make it cut straight. It kept cutting curves. Okay, fun experiment. Now I have a Veritas saw. I did some trial cuts, and it cuts straight, even in my hands.

I also have a Zona coping saw. A few days back, I saw a guy claiming that if I want to remove waste from dovetail cavities, what I really want is a fret saw.

Before I start hacking nice wood up again, can someone advise me? I know I can make the coping saw work if I stay clear of the guide lines, but I might as well make an effort to get the right tool.

As long as I'm here, can someone tell me which basic hand saws I should pick up? All I have right now are the coping saw, Razor saw, and three old saws from the hardware store. I don't even know the proper name for them, now that I think about it. Just the regular saw you get when you go in and say you want a wood saw.

Of course, I also have a table saw and band saw.

I am not planning to get into really large projects right away, but the other day I had to use one of the hardware store saws to rip 28" in a two-by-six.

[Daniel Rode]

You do not need a coping saw or a fret saw to cut dovetails. I use a coping saw to remove the waste because it speeds things up, but It's not much more effort to chop out the waste. A fret saw does the same thing but has a thinner blade so it turn in the saw kerf easier. These are nice, but not necessary.

IMO, what you need is a decent dovetail saw, a couple sharp chisels, a marking knife and practice. A crap saw a dull chisels wont help, but you don't need to buy a $200+ dovetail saw, either.

I find Mike Henderson's tutorial to be a solid reference. http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/hendersonm/tdovetail/tdovetail-01.asp. Anyone can cut dovetails. All it takes is a few tools and some practice.

[Steve Voigt]

…I also have a Zona coping saw. A few days back, I saw a guy claiming that if I want to remove waste from dovetail cavities, what I really want is a fret saw.

Before I start hacking nice wood up again, can someone advise me? I know I can make the coping saw work if I stay clear of the guide lines, but I might as well make an effort to get the right tool.



There are 3 main methods of removing the waste: coping saw, fret saw, or no saw at all, just chisel. All 3 have their adherents, and it is probably a waste of time to argue about which is best. I personally use a coping saw. Two things about this method. First, blades tend to matter more than saws. There's another thread on this that was posted just a couple days ago. Follow some of the recommendations there, and you will get a big improvement over hardware store blades. Second, it takes practice. Can you get within 1/8" of the line? If so, good enough for now. Keep practicing; in another 100 joints, you'll be a lot closer.




…As long as I'm here, can someone tell me which basic hand saws I should pick up? All I have right now are the coping saw, Razor saw, and three old saws from the hardware store. I don't even know the proper name for them, now that I think about it. Just the regular saw you get when you go in and say you want a wood saw.

Of course, I also have a table saw and band saw.

I am not planning to get into really large projects right away, but the other day I had to use one of the hardware store saws to rip 28" in a two-by-six.

Wow, a serious can of worms. It depends on how far down the rabbit hole you want to go. If you want to do all your rough dimensioning with the power saws, you really just need the DT saw, the coping saw, and a tenon saw (14"-16" is good). If you want to get into preparing your stock by hand, you will need, to start, a coarse rip saw and coarse or medium crosscut saw. I would go for a couple old Disstons, 26"-28". Later, you can add more rip and crosscut saws with other pitches.

Edit: I see Dan beat me to it on the coping saw. Good advice Dan.

[Graham Haydon]

As Mr Voight alluded to you can fret or chisel if you like, whatever works. As you already have a coping saw it's worth trying it a few more times on removing the waste. Sadly it'll be practice, practice, practice. Again just repeating above but a sharp chisel and a decent saw. The link for a method is good too. Practicing one way a good few times is worthwhile. You can experiment when it starts coming easy and it will in time!

[Jim Koepke]

Steve,

If at all possible pictures of your saws would make it easier to have a discussion about using them and help to fill in the gaps for your woodworking needs.

A recent thread also has offered some help to me:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?232995-Joinery-saw-technique&p=2440289#post2440289

Towards the end is a post by Steve Voigt where he mentions eye dominance. This literally opened my eyes to one of my problems with sawing and has led me to an awareness with improvement noticed almost immediately.

A coping saw will work fine for waste removal in dovetailing. Fret saws tend to have thinner blades that make it easier to maneuver in tight places. A little extra care and planning is all that is needed to do the work with a coping saw.

Spending money is not the best way to learn how to cut joinery.

My journey to cutting decent dovetails has been a long one. My best advise is to buy some cheap scrap wood and practice. Look at your mistakes and try to determine what caused the mistake.

One concept that helped me, once it was learned, was the lines marked from the first part cut are outside of the waste area. The idea is to "saw to the line" not through the line.

Another point of consideration on dovetails is to start with stock that is square. Then keep all the cutting square. The slopes on the tails or the angles of the pins of course are not square, but they do need to be flat and square to the face or the end of the work piece.

Once your first piece (I am trying to write this so it doesn't matter if you cut tails or pins first) is cut checked and adjusted, do not do any more paring on that piece. Any paring to fit should be done on the work piece marked from the first one cut.

There are a lot more little parts to making a pleasant looking dovetail. They tend to accumulate as habits over time.

Many of the writers on woodworking, especially those who do it for a living, have a need to post or publish on a regular schedule. There is no requirement when they find a different or better method to go back and amend every other article they have written on subject.

There really isn't a way to edit things that have been posted or published in the past. If there were some of my old posts would have notes on them explaining how much has been learned by me since the original post.

At one time my position was chopping out dovetails with a chisel was my preferred method. Since then my skill with a coping/fret saw has improved markedly. Though my results from chopping have been fine, using a coping or fret saw has helped to not only speed up the work, it has improved the consistency toward a tight fitting joint.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

As Mr Voight alluded to you can fret or chisel if you like

You can fret, you can chisel or just cope with the situation...

Sounds like a song for the Underhill Rose trio.

http://video.pbs.org/video/2365309296/

jtk

[Prashun Patel]

Ask yourself what kind of dovetailer you aspire to be.

If you are looking to do the whole process by hand for a higher reason, then (ironic wink), power to you.

But if you want to do it for the flexibility and look, then you can trim your tail and pin waste with the bandsaw, and then use chisels to pare the rest. This will avoid the need for any kind of coping style saw.

[Steve H Graham]

My plan is to get a cheap board, cut practice pins and tails, saw them off, and redo them. I was hoping I could buy a large bag of skill on Ebay, but it looks like no one is selling it.

Someone was asking about rough dimensioning. I am content to use the power jointer and planer, along with power saws, to get within the ballpark. I am also fooling with hand planes in order to become less dependent on electric tools.

As requested, I am posting a photo of the saws.

The big one is a Disston "10 point crosscut handsaw." Found it in the garage, so I used it.

The dovetail saw is a 20 TPI job from Veritas.

The smaller saw that looks like a dovetail saw is a Zona 35-560 fine kerf Razor saw.

The coping saw is a Zona SF63510 coping saw with a 24 TPI blade.

I see big-time woodworkers using different saws for every job. I saw one use a dovetail saw for dovetails and a tenon saw for tenons. Isn't a tenon pretty much the same thing as a dovetail? I want to have what I need, but I don't want to buy stuff just for the sake of buying it.

317422

[Steve Voigt]

But if you want to do it for the flexibility and look, then you can trim your tail and pin waste with the bandsaw, and then use chisels to pare the rest. This will avoid the need for any kind of coping style saw.

For small things like drawers, no doubt this is a viable method. But if/when you are dovetailing the case for say a chest of drawers, you probably don't want to heave your 48" x 24" maple panel up onto your little bandsaw table to nibble out the tail waste. At that point, you will be glad of all the practice you've done with the coping saw. :)

[Jim Koepke]

I was hoping I could buy a large bag of skill on Ebay, but it looks like no one is selling it.

Before they closed, the local hardware store of my youth kept those right between the stacked cans of elbow grease and the display of hard knocks.


I saw one use a dovetail saw for dovetails and a tenon saw for tenons. Isn't a tenon pretty much the same thing as a tenon?

Interesting play on words whether intentional or a slip. Yes, a dovetail pin is a tenon with a different slant on life.

Some saws are better at doing a particular job than others. Many can find a single saw able to do many tasks.

jtk

[Steve Voigt]

Jim K., thank you for the nice comment regarding eye dominance. I'm really glad that was helpful to you, as it has been to me. Happy sawing!

[Steve H Graham]

Interesting play on words whether intentional or a slip. Yes, a dovetail pin is a tenon with a different slant on life.

Arrgh. And I wrote that AFTER having coffee.

[Allan Speers]

Don't fret.

Just cope.



:)

[Allan Speers]

As for saws, I'm a huge fan of Japanese saws. I find them so much easier to use, I'm almost stunned that some folks still use western style saws, but obviously they both get the job done.

Benefits of Nokogiri:

1: Easier to control the line when pulling, vs pushing.

2: No need to exert downward force, as the teeth shape "automatically" pulls the saw into the stock.

3: Thinner blades, so less effort required.

-----------------

Negatives of Nokogiri:

1: Very hard to sharpen.

2: "I fought them devils in WWII, you think I'm gonna' buy TOOLS from them?"




That's all got. :)

[Mark Stutz]

My plan is to get a cheap board, cut practice pins and tails, saw them off, and redo them. I was hoping I could buy a large bag of skill on Ebay, but it looks like no one is selling it.

Someone was asking about rough dimensioning. I am content to use the power jointer and planer, along with power saws, to get within the ballpark. I am also fooling with hand planes in order to become less dependent on electric tools.

As requested, I am posting a photo of the saws.

The big one is a Disston "10 point crosscut handsaw." Found it in the garage, so I used it.

The dovetail saw is a 20 TPI job from Veritas.

The smaller saw that looks like a dovetail saw is a Zona 35-560 fine kerf Razor saw.

The coping saw is a Zona SF63510 coping saw with a 24 TPI blade.

I see big-time woodworkers using different saws for every job. I saw one use a dovetail saw for dovetails and a tenon saw for tenons. Isn't a tenon pretty much the same thing as a dovetail? I want to have what I need, but I don't want to buy stuff just for the sake of buying it.

317422
Whatever you do, don't try to learn to cut dovetails on cheap white pine from the BORG. It will end with frustration. The easiest wood to dovetail, for me, is mahogany, but doesn't meet your first criteria. Poplar would be an acceptable start, or any hardwood. Cherry, soft maple, walnut, etc.

You have what you need for dovetails. You can even do small tenons with the dovetail saw. Larger tenon saws are need for larger ones since you'll need deeper cut and the extra length makes it easier as well. Heavier is nice but not mandatory for those situations.

[Steve H Graham]

Of course, the only cheap stuff I had handy today was...Home Depot pine. I will take your advice seriously, but I figured it couldn't hurt to give it a shot. I am improving.

It's funny you mention mahogany. It's free down here because people have their trees trimmed all the time. The lengths are short, though, and you have to resaw it yourself. And of course, it's wet.

I have some thin walnut that's probably too beat-up to do anything else with.

[george wilson]

I never have used a coping saw to help do dovetails.

[Tom M King]

I've thought about using one, but never have. A super sharp chisel is just too much fun.

[Archie England]

Set up a board and use your Veritas saw to cut 20 or 30 cuts, no more than 1/4" apart. Then go back and cut between them. Make all these cuts at 90*. Repeat this drill at 45* with the blade still straight vertically. Finally, cant blade to 45* or so and then make numerous cuts angling into the practice piece. By this point you will know your tendencies and begin to correct them. Keep practicing!!!!

And for heavens sake, don't try cutting Derek Cohen thin pins!!! Start with large and few pins/tails and then slowly reduce size by increasing the number of your pins.


Also, check out the numerous (ad nauseum) arguments for starting tails or pins first. I thought I could do it either way; I was wrong. I need to start one particular way (at this point anyway) so that the end product will look and fit like dovetails.

Lastly, chopping is my favorite approach because (1) there's more wood there to register my chisel on, (2) I've got to chop following a fret or coping saw anyway, (3) there's so little wood left after coping that I slip (and crush pin/tail edges) far too often, etc. OTOH, the single largest setback for chisels only is the delicate manner in which I must sneak up on the line. Chisel work needs to done smartly, almost softly at the start, so that one can remove minute amounts right by the line. Why? Because your chisel back, when registered precisely on the line, will be pressed backwards by the bevel resistance when POUNDED. So, easy does it for gently approaching the line!!!!

And, finally final, THE LINE. Pencil or knife. Whatever! For me, the knife line provides a more certain consistency than the pencil (when fat). I love Derek's (and others suggestions) to plane out a shallow rabbet for chisel registration.

I'm still there learning with you; I just have less practice wood than before...and a lot of almost dovetails. :)

[Mike Brady]

To answer your original question, I have tried both coping and fret saws with excellent Pegus blades. Coping saws, for me, just don't have the ability to turn quickly in a cut, the way a fret saw can. With a fret saw, you drop the blade in into one saw kerf, and saw straight across to the other kerf, just above the base line. A coping saw can't make that 90 degree turn. I don't chop my waste out because it just dulls the chisel that much faster. In fact, after fret sawing, I often can chop to that base line on the first go. Warning: good fret saws are hard to find and can be expensive. Poor ones won't allow good tensioning of the blade.

[Jim Koepke]

Whatever you do, don't try to learn to cut dovetails on cheap white pine from the BORG. It will end with frustration.

My work is almost exclusively in pine, much of it from the BORGs until a cheaper source was found.

It seems at time the pine 'moves' after being cut. Yes, it can be frustrating. Over the years my dovetailing has gotten better and works well in cheap pine.

Two of my cheap pine projects were done in the winter and it was too cold to glue in the shop. The joinery was tight enough that they have held together well without glue.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?224747-Tea-Cabinet-Latest-Project

The carcass of this was never glued. The frame and panel door was glued. Others that are made for sale have been glued.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?211707-Too-Cold-in-Shop-for-Gluing

This drawer has not had any problems remaining unglued for the year and a half of service it has seen.

A small bed side table was made with mortise and tenon construction at about the same time. It did require gluing. Too much racking on a table leg to live without an adhesive.

jtk

[Brian Holcombe]

As for saws, I'm a huge fan of Japanese saws. I find them so much easier to use, I'm almost stunned that some folks still use western style saws, but obviously they both get the job done.

Benefits of Nokogiri:

1: Easier to control the line when pulling, vs pushing.

2: No need to exert downward force, as the teeth shape "automatically" pulls the saw into the stock.

3: Thinner blades, so less effort required.

-----------------

Negatives of Nokogiri:

1: Very hard to sharpen.

2: "I fought them devils in WWII, you think I'm gonna' buy TOOLS from them?"




That's all got. :)

I switched to a large dozuki for sawing small tenons and I think I will start using it for dovetails as well, the length makes it much more intuitive to maintain 90 degrees to the board.

I use a bowsaw to clear the waste in my dovetails, it's hardly recommended, but my goal is just to clear the majority of the waste. I then return with the chisel and hammer to cut the shoulders square.

For small dovetails it's sometimes easier yet to just chop them. The trick to chopping is to split the waste out. You start ahead of your marked line by about 1/16"~ then chop. Move the chisel to the end grain and split (lightly!!), then return to chopping. Keep doing this until you are clear, then pare to the line.

[Mark Stutz]

Yes, it can be frustrating. Over the years my dovetailing has gotten better and works well in cheap pine.

Without question, pine works well and lots of really nice stuff is made from it. My suggestion was made to try to avoid the frustration that comes with trying to do your first DT with it. I was frustrated with my first and it was with some scrap mahogany that was given to me. I might have given up if I had tried it with pine. At least by then I knew enough not to use a rubber mallet to chop them out!

[Brian Holcombe]

Cedar is a very forgiving wood, I would recommend that for a trial run.

[Steve H Graham]

Without question, pine works well and lots of really nice stuff is made from it. My suggestion was made to try to avoid the frustration that comes with trying to do your first DT with it. I was frustrated with my first and it was with some scrap mahogany that was given to me. I might have given up if I had tried it with pine. At least by then I knew enough not to use a rubber mallet to chop them out!

Okay! I understand completely now! Never use pine! But until I get good at dovetailing, I should probably try...some pine!

[Steve H Graham]

Cedar is a very forgiving wood, I would recommend that for a trial run.

I was going to ask about that. They sell western cedar here, and it seems to cut well. Stinks like a box of pencils, though.

[Jim Koepke]

Okay! I understand completely now! Never use pine! But until I get good at dovetailing, I should probably try...some pine!

As Edward Murrow once said, "anybody who isn't completely confused just doesn't understand the situation."

If one is easily frustrated, then woodworking can be one long series of frustrations.

If one can learn how to correct their mistakes, woodworking can be a lifelong learning process.

Pine is fine, just don't expect to find it nice quarter sawn pieces. For me it almost takes as long to select the pieces as it does to do the joinery. Always buy more than you need. Pine has a nasty habit of hiding splits and other defects.

jtk

[Zach Dillinger]

I never have used a coping saw to help do dovetails.

I tried it once. Found it slower and more frustrating than chopping, so once was enough.

[Jim Koepke]

I tried it once. Found it slower and more frustrating than chopping, so once was enough.

My experience was the same on my first try. Though the quality of my dovetail joint improved slightly. After about four tries, my sawing with a fret/coping saw improved. Now for through dovetails it is faster for me to saw out the waste.

The moral of the story may be that sometimes, once is not enough.

jtk

[Prashun Patel]

I tried it once. Found it slower and more frustrating than chopping, so once was enough.

Zach and George-
I'm intrigued. I find chopping fatiguing and bad on my back and elbows. I am clearly doing it wrong. I cannot imagine chopping out all that waste with a chisel. Clearly, I am missing something on the technique. Do you by any chance have a video (or know of one) where you are chopping out some waste? I know enough to know that efficient placement of the right chisel can make all the diff. But for the life of me, these chopping cuts are painful.

Thx in advance.

[Steve Voigt]

My experience was the same on my first try. Though the quality of my dovetail joint improved slightly. After about four tries, my sawing with a fret/coping saw improved. Now for through dovetails it is faster for me to saw out the waste.

The moral of the story may be that sometimes, once is not enough.

jtk


Well put.
I am struggling to think of a single example of a hand tool or technique that I was successful at on the first try.

[Sean Hughto]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-o4jryTkUc

[Brian Holcombe]

Chopping through 1/2" material with a reference, like Frank shows, is an excellent way to do the work. I deviate from that approach when the material size increases, which at some point it becomes a lot faster to saw the waste.

[Maurice Ungaro]

Now, Paul Sellers does not address DT methods in this blog, BUT he does dispel the notion that one needs and über pricey coping saw: http://paulsellers.com/2014/11/coping-and-the-costs-of-coping-saws-and-blades/

[Jim Koepke]

Zach and George-
I'm intrigued. I find chopping fatiguing and bad on my back and elbows. I am clearly doing it wrong. I cannot imagine chopping out all that waste with a chisel. Clearly, I am missing something on the technique. Do you by any chance have a video (or know of one) where you are chopping out some waste? I know enough to know that efficient placement of the right chisel can make all the diff. But for the life of me, these chopping cuts are painful.

Thx in advance.

The fatigue and discomfort may be due to working at the wrong height. One should always try to work in a position that is comfortable and not demanding of their body.

When chopping dovetails my lightest mallet is often used. Light taps with a sharp chisel at ~30º bevel. A bit of waste is removed from one side with the end of the pins or tails left. Then the work is flipped and the chopping is continued from the other side. The ends of the pins or tails that was left is now supporting the waste from the underside.

jtk

[Zach Dillinger]

Well put.
I am struggling to think of a single example of a hand tool or technique that I was successful at on the first try.

This is undoubtedly true but I already know how to chop and see no need to learn how to cope, especially since I am unfamiliar with any use of this tool in this manner in the period. It works for some people and not others. No big deal!

Prashun, I don't have a video, but I do have this picture of my chopping dovetails at the DIA earlier this year. Work height makes all the difference in the world, and please take note of my sophisticated work holding method... :)

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[Warren Mickley]

Here is my suggestion for avoiding back and arm pain. Note upright posture, short handled mallet held near head, holding chisel by the handle. Too much bending over causes problems over the long term. You want a relaxed posture.
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