First (and hopefully last) Cabinet Table Saw Purchase - Advice needed use

[John Akerblom]

Big decision to make. Need a table saw for my two car garage workshop (no more $150 contractor saw from 1982). I want to go new, not used, cuz I am no expert at maintenance or alignment. I work with a lot of exotic, dense hardwoods, and need accuracy and power (and good dust collection)

Ive read about 1000 pages of threads and have narrowed my choices down to two.

1. Grizzly 5hp, 12" blade, oversized table (model G0696X)
or
2. Sawstop 3hp, 10" blade, pro model.

I know these are kind of apples and oranges, but I learn a lot from these threads regardless (and also get a real kick out of it when ppl start getting angry).

My question is, besides the safety feature on Sawstop, what advantages does it have. The Grizzly is more powerful, bigger and thicker table, way heavier, 12" blade, and has got great reviews so far. I know Sawstop has gotten rave reviews for the precision and quality machining, but am wondering if it would be worth it to save around $800 (once I'm done buying a mobile base, dust guard, etc) and get a bigger, more powerful tool. I use a lot of thick, dense lumber and could make use of the 12" blade.

If I do decide to go with the grizzly, what would be the best above blade dust collection system? Could an after market fence bring the accuracy up to sawstop's calibur? Has anyone used the Grizzly sliding table with this saw?

Any and all advice, experience, and insight is greatly appreciated. Yes, I value my fingers, but the safety feature is not my only concern.

Thanks in advance,
John

[Kelby Van Patten]

I have neither. However, SawStop's dust collection is probably the best of any tablesaw made today.

[Rick Potter]

Have you checked SS heavier 5 HP 10" saw?

[Kent Adams]

I recently purchased a Powermatic 2000 after a ton of online and hands on research. I'm very happy with the saw, but if expense isn't a huge consideration, I'd look into Hammer or Felder. If you're going SS, I'd get the ICS model rather than PCS. A 12" blade wasn't even a consideration for me, not sure I'd ever cut stock that thick. Check the dado capacity (width) of both machines you're looking at as well. I don't think you can go wrong with either the Grizzly or the SS, though I'd certainly want a longer table than the Grizzly model is giving you. Factor into your budget a good dust collector because they can really help you enjoy your time in the shop a lot more than a lousy one. If you have the means, I highly recommend the Oneida 3hp Smart collector. It leaves virtually no dust around when cross cutting.

[Curt Harms]

For guard/dust collection a lot of people speak highly of Lee Styron's shark guard. I don't see your saw model listed so you'd have to call.

http://www.thesharkguard.com/index.htm

[Robert Engel]

Other's more knowledgeable than me can chime in, but from what other guys have said, there's not a discernable advantage going to 5HP.
Maybe the reason is the power of a 3HP/10" blade is pretty comparable to 5HP/12" blade.
Even with very dense wood, as long as your blade is sharp I doubt the need for a saw that big.

Other things to consider:
1. The coast of blades for a 12" saw are considerably higher.
2. 5HP requires 10ga wire and 30A circuit.

Not knowledgeable enough in overarm DC to comment other than I'm pretty old school about this I want to see the blade so I don't use guards of any kind.

[Hoang N Nguyen]

I have the sawstop 1.75 HP cabinet table saw and love it. I should have gotten the 3HP motor but money was tight at the moment and honestly, the saw hasn't bogged down on me yet and the thickness hardest woods I've ran through it are 8/4 hard maple and purple heart. I never had a problem ripping the wood mentioned and I honestly don't see myself going any thicker. I also wished I had gone with the 52" version instead of the 36" version but again, money was tight. If I had to do it again, sawstop would still be my saw of choice, just bigger motor and longer fence.

[Chuck Saunders]

We have 3 SS PCS's at the Guild and they are sound saws without considering the flesh sensing, but the flesh sensing is a worthwhile bonus
Chuck

[Jim German]

As you say this really is apples and oranges. On the one hand you have a big, powerful heavy saw vs a smaller, safer, better built and more precise saw. I think the question comes down to do you really need a bigger saw? I doubt the HP will ever be a big deal, as others have said 3HP is plenty for a 10" saw. The bigger table will be handy, but its only about 10% bigger, I don't see that being a huge deal. So then the big thing is the extra depth of cut. On the Sawstop you get 3.125" vs the 4" on the Grizzly. I can't think of many situations where I've needed more than 3" of cut, and if I did, I just use a bandsaw. Therefore I'd lean towards the Sawstop.

[Jim Dwight]

If you want to cut wood thicker than a 10 inch saw can handle (i.e. thicker than about 3.25 inches), a bandsaw is a better idea than a bigger table saw. Maybe if you have a lot of work to do in wood around 4 inches thick a 12 inch could make sense but that would be unusual.

I've never had a 10 inch saw that needed 220V and I've been making sawdust pretty regularly for about 40 years. I have to slow down my feed rate, especially if the blade is dirty or dull, but I cut 3.5 inches on a 110V saw. The only advantage I see to more powerful motors is the ability to use dirty and/or dull blades. That isn't a good idea for other reasons. If you already have a big enough 220V feed, maybe the big motor makes sense. But if not, I would waste time and money on wiring. A 15A 120V motor will get the job done. I might feel differently if I did this for a living but for hobby work, I don't really think you need the big motor. I don't.

I would probably get the new Grizzly hybrid and possibly a bandsaw for about the same money.

[Prashun Patel]

12" feels to me to be overkill. Rather, you'll get more efficiency on deep, rips using a really good bladed bandsaw.

I work with exotics on my lathe and I find the dust to be in general more pernicious than domestics, so I'd invest in a saw with good dust collection. In fact, I find the worst dust generator to be trimming cuts on the tablesaw. The Sawstop does not prevent these dusty situations.

The SS has a nice riving knife/guard switch which is tool-less. That is a huge deal for me. It's accurate and wonderful in every way.

If the $$ is no issue, I'd get the SS.

If $$$ is no issue, then get the SS 5hp.

If $$$$ is no issue, then get the SS 5hp + a separate overhead guard that is decoupled from the saw altogether.

[glenn bradley]

If you have a need for a 12" blade, the Saw Stop is not a contender. If you can do your work with a 10" blade, I would not go to a 12". I have the 3HP PCS and it has been a fine saw. Like others have said in the past, even without the safety feature the design, build and finish are superior to many like-priced machines.

I was looking at the other usual colors of paint at the time. Having the opportunity to potentially buy my last saw, I went with the Saw Stop after many months of analysis. When you get into a certain category of machines that actually qualify by quality, not price, the choice can almost be subjective; which side the dust port is on, how the guard works, subtle differences in the Beis-a-like fences, etc.

I think you need to fine tune your requirements so that you are looking at more similar competitors and then make your choice.

[David Kumm]

To really make a decision as to apples and oranges, you need to look at the inside of the Grizzly. They used to make a clone of the Delta 12-14 which is a much heavier and better build than the unisaw based 10" series. It looks to me like the 696X may be closer to a unisaw build with a little greater capacity. The smaller saw stop is a little lighter build than the old Unisaw and their big saw falls somewhere between the uni and the 12-14 ( opinion of old guys who know both ). A riving knife on a traditional fixed saw is a big deal and if buying new, that should be mandatory. There are ways to work around but only if getting a great deal on a used.

I appreciate the desire for new, but the logic is flawed. A new machine may need every bit as much adjustment as a used heavier saw that has been in use by a woodworker. Even if not, once in adjustment, the old 12-14 or PM 72 12" saws remained in adjustment pretty much forever once dialed in. Not trying to change your mind ( although used saws are the deal of the century now ), but I've spent every bit as much time making new work well as my used stuff. The beneift of the older is you can afford way better quality if you shop well. Dave

[John Akerblom]

I understand I could get a good bargain with used saws, but I just have little expertise to determine which saws are in good condition and there seems to be little available in Los Angeles.

I was planning on getting a Laguna SUV Bandsaw, so I guess the 10" vs 12" blade is not very important. I know I don't need a full 5HP, I just liked that the Grizzly has a 2 inch thick, oversized table and ways a ton. I can't quite afford the Industrial line of Sawstops.

I guess I probably should just save my money and buy the 3HP Pro SawStop with mobile base, overhead dust extraction, and maybe the outfeed table (although I have read mixed reviews about their outfeed tables.

I don't need a full 52" rip capacity, so I'll probably get the 36" model (one of the reasons I don't want a mid-sized Grizzly is it seems you have to choose between 36" and 52").

[Dick Jones]

I Have the Grizz 12 inch 5hp and love it.

It is very heavy and I can leave in one place. It can be moved but I would not want to do on a regular basis.

[Hoang N Nguyen]

If space isn't an issue for you, I'd go with the 52" fence. You never know when you need to rip 37" sheet goods on the table saw when your saw max out at 36"...... Ask me how I know.

[Mike Henderson]

I have the 3HP Pro Sawstop and I've never wished for more. Ask yourself how much your fingers are worth.

The only viable alternative to a SS is a slider.

Mike

[scott spencer]

At that price level, the odds are heavily in your favor of getting a strong performing saw. A saw that won't cause amputation in the event of an accident is a pretty significant advantage in my book.

[Kent A Bathurst]

. I use a lot of thick, dense lumber and could make use of the 12" blade.

This sentence is the leverage point, IMO.

If you need the cutting capacity of a 12" blade, then your decision seems to be a simple one.

If you don't need the 12" capacity, but do need the HP for the dense woods, then you have options.

Your money - make your choice - either way you will be done buying table saws.

FWIW - and probably not worth much - - twice in the past I have purchased their 7.5 HP saws [but ordered them as 480v, which made them 10 hp]. For industrial use, of course. They absolutely did the job............

Get a phase converter, and the 3 ph 220v 7.5 HP 12" saw.......Katie bar the door.

[johnny means]

Personally, anything that requires more than 3" of cutting height doesn't get cut on a cabinet saw.

[John Lankers]

John, I'll through you a curve ball, you said you value your fingers, that gives you 2 options: SawStop and Slider - the choice is yours, I went for the slider.

[Frank Martin]

I have the 3HP Pro Sawstop and I've never wished for more. Ask yourself how much your fingers are worth.

The only viable alternative to a SS is a slider.

Mike

This reflects my thoughts exactly. In my case I went with a slider as part of a combo machine.

[John Akerblom]

I would love a slider, but they are super expensive and weigh so much I'd worry about ever moving them. I saw a craigslist ad for a bare bones Laguna tss for relatively cheap, but even the accessories cost a fortune. And I wouldn't want the "baby" model.

I am am renting the house I'm at, the garage has a super cracked and uneven floor (not much repositioning and wheeling around of large tools will be done) and I have to be able to fit everything in my two car garage shop and then move it five years from now.

my other question about the Sawstop is: What other materials will cause the brake to engage? I laminate speargun blanks with carbon fiber and fiberglass, could either of those set off the brake/safety mechanism.

Thanks again for for all the advice. It's great to be able to do this much research before spending this much money.

[Rick Lizek]

A cabinet saw is only half a saw. Get a slider for a full saw.
http://grizzly23-px.rtrk.ca/products/10-Sliding-Table-Saw-with-Scoring-Blade-Arbor/G0700

[Jeff Gleason]

This is one of the biggest decisions you'll make for your shop and I'd like to throw in my 2 cents here. 8 years ago I was in the same position and after researching as much as I could, I came to the conclusion that SS was the best option for me. Safety pulled me in to look closer, then quality concerns were no longer an issue. This is by far my best purchase. I also bought two big ticket items from Grizzly - tempted by the price point. A cyclone dust collector and their planer/jointer combo. These both were by far the worst purchases I made. The combo factory error made the jointer useless and the DC cleaner brush pull cables won't stay on pulley, which requires a great deal of hassle to dissect the filter etc… only to have the cable go off track again. I know this is only anecdotal info but I'd never buy Grizzle again. Best wishes to you on your decision!

[Earl Rumans]

I don't think you have researched slider saws sufficiently. Here is a Hammer K3 in your price range and it is a far superior saw, compared to what you are looking at. http://us.feldershop.com/en-US/en-US/en-US/Sawing/Machines/Hammer-K3-winner-31x48.html

[Rod Sheridan]

This reflects my thoughts exactly. In my case I went with a slider as part of a combo machine.

Exactly, that's what I did as well.

It also takes a 12 inch blade....................Regards, Rod.

[John Akerblom]

Yeah, those Hammers are pretty nice. Looked into them today. I don't cut much in terms of sheet goods though, nor do I crosscut much except for a few end-grain cutting boards here or there. I'd mostly be using the sliding table to rip and edge live edge lumber, which means I'd need the long table, which drives the price even higher. At the end of the day, I just don't think I need it.

Might just end up buying a $1,400 Grizzly 1023, then use the extra $2,000 to get a bandsaw or proper cyclone dust collection system.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Might just end up buying a $1,400 Grizzly 1023, then use the extra $2,000 to get a bandsaw or proper cyclone dust collection system.

Hear, hear.

[Rick Moyer]

Might just end up buying a $1,400 Grizzly 1023, then use the extra $2,000 to get a bandsaw or proper cyclone dust collection system.

There, there. (I didn't want to OBVIOUSLY agree with Kent. Dangerous)

[John Akerblom]

Thanks again for all the input. I've put off the decision for a while and kept an eye out for used saws on craigslist.

Recently, I saw this ad for a 12" Powermatic. It fits all my specs, heavy, powerful, 1phase power, etc.

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lgb/tls/5150828480.html

Anyone have any feedback? I know Powermatic's quality has (allegedly) fluctuated over time, and I was wondering if anyone had any input or experience with this model of saw.

Additionally, any suggestions on what I should look for or what questions I should ask when inspecting the saw would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
John

[Steve Wilde]

I recently purchased a 3Hp Sawstop pcs. It's a great saw, although I do a lot of work with 8 or 10/4 cherry and maple. I came from using a 5 Hp unisaw, and I have to say the unisaw didn't bog down like my sawstop will. I should have bought the 5Hp ICS. In all honesty, in the future I'll probably sell mine and get the ICS. I'm going to get a 20 tooth ripping blade and see if that helps much, I suspect it will.
Steve

[Kent A Bathurst]

Thanks again for all the input. I've put off the decision for a while and kept an eye out for used saws on craigslist.

Recently, I saw this ad for a 12" Powermatic. It fits all my specs, heavy, powerful, 1phase power, etc.

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lgb/tls/5150828480.html

Anyone have any feedback? I know Powermatic's quality has (allegedly) fluctuated over time, and I was wondering if anyone had any input or experience with this model of saw.

Additionally, any suggestions on what I should look for or what questions I should ask when inspecting the saw would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
John

I'd be on top of that. Made in the USA - McMinnville, TN. From the sweet spot of production. I think that is a solid saw at a fair price.

You want to fire it up, of course, run the height limit-to-limit, run the tilt limit-to limit [check the angles], see how the fence moves - lock and stability. The one main issue is always runout - if you have a way to measure that. If that is all good, tee it up.

The thing is, though - often these appear and then are gone in a flash, so you should get there fast, with folding money in your hand................

EDIT: Appears to be a 1962 Model 71.........don't come any more solid than that, if it is in good shape. 5 HP and 12" blade.........a serious horse.........

Vintage Machinery S/N database: http://wiki.vintagemachinery.org/PowermaticSerialNumbers.ashx

If it was on the "proper" coast, I'd be driving right now............and I don't even need a TS.

[Robert Engel]

Keep in mind 12" blades are considerably more expensive.
How thick of material are you cutting, anyway?

[Frank Pratt]

The top has obviously had some pretty heavy grinding/sanding done to remove rust. Take a straight edge along to check for dips or other areas where the PO may have gotten a little enthusiastic with the sander.

[Jim Dwight]

I saw your size of shop since my last point and will add another thought. I think people with limited space and who may have to move should seriously consider a table saw with less rip capacity (i.e. not 52 inches or more) and a track saw. A track saw will not do everything that a table saw will but it will cut sheet goods safely and with less space required than you can do on a table saw. Even on solid wood, I would rather move my tracksaw through the wood than wrestle a heavy board through the table saw. I took my extension rails off since I got my track saw. It didn't save me money but it saved space. Typically you could probably save enough on a smaller capacity saw to pay for the tracksaw (at least one other than a Festool).

[Brian Hood]

I have a Hammer slider and a track saw (a eurekazone EZ-smart with a festool saw and router, weird combo but it works great) and feel the advantages of a slider, especially for small work, is so great I could never again be satisfied with any other type saw. Just an entirely different way of working.
Yes they can be heavy but in the title of your post is 'hopefully the last'.
Standing next to not behind the saw, work clamped to a perfectly aligned rolling table with a pair of KREG Automaxx bench clamps that run in the t-slots, it just fixes so many issues and allows you to quickly make cuts you would never consider with a normal saw.
So many people are advising this that you should at least try one out before eliminating them.