Shellac & Tried and True

[Steve Kang]

Hello,

Looking for a little advice on finishing. I have all three varieties of tried and true products (varnish, original and danish) along with shellac flakes and DNA.

Is there a particular T&T product that would work best with shellac? Should it be applied before or after the shellac coats?

If it helps, it'll be going on a maple/walnut table that has been hand scraped smooth.

I'd appreciate any help here.

SK

[Jim Becker]

I use the regular T&T oil (without the bee's wax) followed by de-waxed shellac all the time. You have to oil BEFORE the shellac...the shellac will seal the wood. Once my container of T&T runs out (it lasts forever because one uses so little for an application), I'll likely just use regular, BLO for this, but I truly like the T&T product and have used it for a decade and a half.

[Steve Kang]

Thanks Jim, that's what I'll do. Just a quick follow-up question. How long do you typically wait before applying the shellac coat? Do you sand after T&T or do you go straight to the shellac?

[Jim Becker]

Honestly, I often do not wait very long on some projects...after reading an article by Jeff Jewitt a few years ago where he did the oil, went to shellac and then on to top coats in the same day. Sometimes I do only a few hours; sometimes I do a few days. It depends on the project. What's really important, however, is that the oil be used very lightly and completely wiped off. It's really only there to add some "beauty". I'd say a general rule of thumb might be wait at least 24 hours, but as noted, it's certainly possible to push things with this finishing technique.

[Prashun Patel]

Jim has more experience than I, so I say this with due humility:

I have found some alternate truths to the way shellac and oil-based finishes can be applied, as long as you understand how each works.

Oil-based finishes and shellac both seal the wood. Some of the T&T finishes fall in the camp of oil-varnish blends.

Shellac forms a hard, brittle film.

Both will highlight the grain - I would argue to the same extent practically - when applied to a properly prepped surface.

You can in general put shellac over a thin coat of oil-varnish, provided the OV isn't too thick and has dried. The brittle film will not like going over a soft or undried finish. A fail would look like blistering or crackling or cloudiness in the final shellac surface.

You can also in general put oil/varnish over shellac - the only reason you might do this is if you use shellac as a quick sealer to minimize the number of coats of oil-varnish you need. The more shellac you apply, the less absorption of the oil/varnish you will experience. However, over a thin seal of shellac - and I mean so that it has not started building - the oil varnish will still do it's job. In fact, if your shellac is lighter in color than your oil/varnish, you can reduce blotching in some woods if this is an issue for you.

[Jim Becker]

Prashun, I agree with you about oil finishes that are actually varnishes...they should cure first. The particular T&T product I mentioned is just linseed oil, similar to BLO, but polymerized so that metallic driers are not needed. Wipe it on, let it sit for a few minutes, wipe it off. There's almost nothing left on the surface. Same for garden variety of BLO. Shellac is very forgiving over that, especially in the requisite thin coating that shellac should be used. (it's a major "no-no" to pile up shellac to a thick coating...cracking/crazing can result)

[paul cottingham]

My usual finishing "regimen" is exactly what you said. I apply Tried and True, wait about 30 minutes, then wipe it down with a rag. I often wait 24 hours, make sure the Tried and True has cured (I usually have to do more rubbing out) then apply shellac.
Of late, I've been using water based poly either with the tried an true (I know) or just by itself. The alcohol in the shellac fumes is getting too much for this old friend of Bill W.

[Raphael Weil]

My usual finishing "regimen" is exactly what you said. I apply Tried and True, wait about 30 minutes, then wipe it down with a rag. I often wait 24 hours, make sure the Tried and True has cured (I usually have to do more rubbing out) then apply shellac.
Of late, I've been using water based poly either with the tried an true (I know) or just by itself. The alcohol in the shellac fumes is getting too much for this old friend of Bill W.

I'm going to have to try that some time. How long are you waiting between the two?

[paul cottingham]

Usually 24 hours or so. Until the T&T is dry to the touch, basically.

[Stephen Parsons]

This article/FAQ seems to indicate that you can go either way, but TnT themselves suggest putting the TnT over the shellac.

https://www.triedandtruewoodfinish.com/resources/faq/#:~:text=26.-,Can%20I%20use%20Tried%20%26%20True%20over%20shell ac%2Fpolyurethane%2Fwood,top%20for%20the%20finishi ng%20coat.

Layering seems to be possible as long as you allow for suitable curing time.

[Jim Braun]

I do a couple of shellac coats first and then several applications of tried and true varnish oil, resulting in a nice low gloss finish. I suggest you do a test board first to see if you like it.

[Jim Becker]

This article/FAQ seems to indicate that you can go either way, but TnT themselves suggest putting the TnT over the shellac.

https://www.triedandtruewoodfinish.com/resources/faq/#:~:text=26.-,Can%20I%20use%20Tried%20%26%20True%20over%20shell ac%2Fpolyurethane%2Fwood,top%20for%20the%20finishi ng%20coat.

Layering seems to be possible as long as you allow for suitable curing time.

I can see that being true for the natural resin varnish, but not for the oil only or oil/beeswax formulas based on my own experiences. But I guess I could be wrong about that!

[Prashun Patel]

Funny, coming back to this thread 7 years later. I wi say now that I find it moot to use both products. Both will seal, both should be applied thin. Both will pop the grain. KISS for me these days.

[Jim Becker]

Ach, I missed that it was a necro-thread. LOL