Raised Panel and Back Cutter Questions.

[David Nelson1]

I am using the Infinity back cutter (http://www.infinitytools.com/Back-Cutter-Shaper-Cutters/products/1251/) with the 103 rub collar they offer stacked with their raised panel cutter (http://www.infinitytools.com/Raised-Panel-Door-Shaper-Cutters/products/1241/). The back cutter is leaving a much wider cut then I expected. I thought to use a larger rub collar but it doesn't fit the recess of the tooling and rides on the cutters.

My expectation was to have the back of the panel flush with the frame. The tooling I bought is doing what it's supposed to but I don't get the idea of such a large relief. I can't run a back fence because the table of the shaper is not that large. I guess I'm asking if I'm expecting to much or a better way to get the results I was looking for. Pic attached for your viewing pleasure. BTW that is scrap flooring glued up for a practice panel not the real deal. :cool:

[Mel Fulks]

My take has always been that since mdf and some woods are frequently bought 3/4 "the relief cut is nothing more than a way to use those materials without changing them. At times we have made doors of thinner wood just to use it up, and in that case ,obviously, you don't use the back cutter. There is nothing wrong. FWIW I have never heard a complaint about the BACK of a door....even when one would be perfectly justified. A knot on the face side will get a complaint. But if the material picked by customer is knotty pine ....and you provide knot less pine ...then that will bring a complaint.

[Frank Drew]

I guess cabinet doors have what could be considered back sides, but passage and entry doors are really both-sides-show.

[Peter Quinn]

Do the back cut as a second operation, using either a small cove cutter or rabbit cutter as you prefer. If your panels aren't arched no real reason you need the bearing involved, it can add safety on a large panel raise, but you can easily close up the fence gap with a continuous piece of aluminum bar stock, even better. I agree, that back cut is huge and unsightly, not sure why they would provide that. I have a Freud set for my panel head that gives a nice little cove or square edge maybe 3/16" from the doors molded back edge? Looks great, I usually run it as a second operation.

[Mike Goetzke]

I have a Freud router bit set with back cutter and the gap between the stile and panel reveal is MUCH less than you have.

Mike

[Jim Dwight]

My router bit panel raisers remove less material on the back cut too. I prefer to just do the panel raise and the back cut as separate operations. A thinner panel works too but I don't like taking ~1/4 off with the planner on a bunch of boards. Seems like you need a smaller diameter shaper cutter. A rabbeting bit would work.

[David Nelson1]

No idea why they built this set like this. With the bearing in the middle and running it stacked, it is a 2 step operation. I do have a 3 winged rabbiting bit in 3/4. I'm just not willing to change the spindle out. So i guess when I finish raising all the panels I make one continuous fence and poke the back cutter thru it. I hate doing that sounds very destructive.

This is the first set of raised cabinet doors I've done and the panel raising cutter had me worried just looking at it. Checked the knives about 6 times before I hit the on button and I was very low to the ground when I did that. For some odd ball reason i was worried about about it kicking back and catching my hands................ duh I have a feeder. I'll quit tell on myself now

I'll post my second practice one after dinner.

[Peter Quinn]

David, what size are your panels? That back cutter from infinity looks fine, no need to switch spindles, just run the back cut first with cutter below the work, all you need to do is put a piece of 1/2" plywood clamped to the main fence the length of the whole fence to bridge the gap, makes it a continuous fence, no need to plunge into anything, this will support your cuts, just set the back cutters depth to the projection you want, then you can power feed the panels with cutter above the work as a second operation, which makes the tongue the correct size once set. You can use the bearing on the panel set up if you choose or make one of those J. R. type bridge fences with an aluminum bar if the panels are all straight. I recently made one at work using an extra length of file drawer bar stock, took all of 15 minutes, best fixture Ive made lately , very very handy.

My freud set is an insert head but the back cutter is not, its a small braised cutter with a cove very similar to the infinity profile, it creates something like a 3/8" panel tongue then maybe 1/4" or a bit more of off set to the back cut, you can buy those separately and I could check the diameter if thats of interest to see if it would work for your head.


http://www.amazon.com/Freud-RP-OPB-Optional-Radius-Cutter/dp/B00004VWOK

[Peter Quinn]

I'm looking at the original pics more closely, looks to me like the flat after the panel profile on the front of the door is sort of large, we usually go maybe 1/8" between door sticking and panel profile, so I'm thinking the problem with that set may not be the back cutter but the bearing. At full depth given Infinity's numbers that bearing with that back cutter makes a 15/16" deep back cut, take away the projection of the panel tongue into the sticking, thats still pretty big. Seems like you could ditch the bearing, run a solid spacer and shims between the two cutters, and make the whole cut a it shallower. That 6" head is capable of making a monster sized panel tongue/flat, and the back cutter is matched to that, but the bearing seems like the mis match. Hard to fully analyze without the cutter at hand, do you have a 1 1/4" OD T bushing that would let you stack and measure the two heads relative to each other off the machine?

[David Nelson1]

yeah I do. what do you want me to try?

[David Nelson1]

Putting a spacer/shims between back cutter enough to raise it off the inserts might work with the Infinity 104 bearing. I tried a T bushing to raise the bearing yesterday and the panel missed the bearing by about 3/16. Adding a wood stripe for the panel to ride is what I'm going to do.

I sure like the fence JR post a few weeks back, ain't that the 1000.00 Aigler fence.

[Peter Quinn]

Putting a spacer/shims between back cutter enough to raise it off the inserts might work with the Infinity 104 bearing. I tried a T bushing to raise the bearing yesterday and the panel missed the bearing by about 3/16. Adding a wood stripe for the panel to ride is what I'm going to do.

I sure like the fence JR post a few weeks back, ain't that the 1000.00 Aigler fence.

Maybe, but I'm talking about the $1.99 one with aluminum bars at the top and bottom, a little curved relief on the back just in from of the spindle, the one he started with. Same functionality, less flexibility but much lower cost. I made some panels recently that were 6"X65" for a mantle looking thing, solid cherry, would not have been easy without a continuous bearing surface. Check out JR's post in this archive...http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?135626-panel-raising-with-back-cutters-on-shaper

I was thinking with a double t bushing from a 3/4" spindle, one that has a 1 1/4" OD, you could stack the two cutters so they are centered to each other and see what their relative position was. My instinct is that the bearing is really too small for the head, its creating both an excessive back cut depth and a panel flat that is too deep.


I've pretty much never relied on an actual rub collar in a raised panel set up unless there are curves involved. Its just not necessary and in all cases where the panels are rectilinear its not the best way. I've used a few bearing set ups at work but the bearings and back cutters were all matched to give a 3/8" panel tongue and a subtle back cut. But I like to have more control over my set ups, the bearing limits you to one size fits all, or seemingly in this case one size fits improperly.

[David Nelson1]

Maybe, but I'm talking about the $1.99 one with aluminum bars at the top and bottom, a little curved relief on the back just in from of the spindle, the one he started with. Same functionality, less flexibility but much lower cost. I made some panels recently that were 6"X65" for a mantle looking thing, solid cherry, would not have been easy without a continuous bearing surface. Check out JR's post in this archive...http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?135626-panel-raising-with-back-cutters-on-shaper

I was thinking with a double t bushing from a 3/4" spindle, one that has a 1 1/4" OD, you could stack the two cutters so they are centered to each other and see what their relative position was. My instinct is that the bearing is really too small for the head, its creating both an excessive back cut depth and a panel flat that is too deep.


I've pretty much never relied on an actual rub collar in a raised panel set up unless there are curves involved. Its just not necessary and in all cases where the panels are rectilinear its not the best way. I've used a few bearing set ups at work but the bearings and back cutters were all matched to give a 3/8" panel tongue and a subtle back cut. But I like to have more control over my set ups, the bearing limits you to one size fits all, or seemingly in this case one size fits improperly.

How would a double T bush from a 3/4 work on my 1" spindle? I looked at Jr's set with the freeborn back cutter the difference there is the Freeborn (I am assuming because of the color) has no recess for a bearing. If I could shim the 104 rub collor which 3 1/4 in place of the 103 which is 2 3/4 that would put me right where I wanna be actually maybe to tight for moisture related movement. The bearing in the picture is the 2 3/4 any larger and it fouls on the cutter before it can seat.

[Martin Wasner]

How about you don't use the relief cut and you make the panels 5/8" instead? Cleaner look, one less horrible thing to sand, and you're removing some useless weight that is just adding to the west and tear if the hinges.

[David Nelson1]

How about you don't use the relief cut and you make the panels 5/8" instead? Cleaner look, one less horrible thing to sand, and you're removing some useless weight that is just adding to the west and tear if the hinges.

That would be an acceptable answer, but since all the panels are glued up and a few are wider than my drum sander and planer kinda makes it tough.

[glenn bradley]

As others have said, it appears to be a depth of cut issue, front and back. I agree with cutting about 1/2" less in depth using the fence versus the bearing as your depth stop.

[Peter Quinn]

The t bushing is for bench comparison, not going on the shaper at all. A 1" ID double t bushing would work as well, I happen to have an old 3/4" one I kept just for the purpose. It lets you quickly align the two cutters so you can measure the relative difference in radius to see the off set of the cut, not sure this actually would work with that deep recess in the back cutter. It's an interesting way to let you cut arched and curved panels with a back cut in one pass, though you lose control of your depth adjustment. If these are not arched panels that bearing has no place in this set up. You can use it as a spacer if required, probably easier to eliminate it, stack regular spacers to make up the height, and use a JR type fence to set the depth. All this can get challenging depending on the assortment of t bushings you have available if going from 1" to 1 1/4". I spent the morning setting up a new shelf edge cutter, double mitered tongue and groove type thing, bushing a 1 1/8" spindle up to 1 1/4", I just didn't have the bushings to do it the way I wanted at first but found a way to make it work.

[David Nelson1]

First off I'd like to say thanks to those that helped with suggestions, I always walk away even if it's a simple question with more than I had bargained for. So the rest of the story is nothing is wrong with the panel raiser, bearing, and back cutter, a few more details on the web page might have helped.

Couple of things that can happen with this setup if your a rookie ding ding ding... If you have a 1 1/4 spindle and nest everything together and line up the profiles accordingly your going to raise and back cut a 3/4 think panel in one pass which will give you the 1/4 tongue. You will also cut back the panel about 13/16 or so. I you don't mind that your done. I didn't try this. I think its to much going on at once,at least for me. Second off I don't have a 1 1/4 spindle. .

Now what I did was I added T bushing since my spindle is 1" this raised the bearing and the panel raising cutter enough that it required adjusting the spindle up to make the back cut. Of course your still going to get the huge back.

Peter suggested clamping a board 1/2 thick to make up the difference and back cut off of it. Sounds like a winner to me. These cutters are nice and run very smooth just not what I expected on the back side.

Dave

[Martin Wasner]

That would be an acceptable answer, but since all the panels are glued up and a few are wider than my drum sander and planer kinda makes it tough.


Find someone with a larger planer or widebelt? If someone walked into my shop with a handful of panels I'd bust them through my widebelt for a few bucks no problem.