Really need expert advice on router size and type???

[Lucy Langlois]

Hi, I searched the forums but the posts I found were older and wanted to see if more current recommendations are out there. Quick background on my needs... I'm an artist and only use a router for one thing, cutting out large (up to 4' x 4'), sometimes intricate, wood shapes out of 1/2" hardwood sanded plywood from Lowes. I use my own MDF templates, a template guide and whiteside spiral upcut bits. I change bits about every 5 pattern shapes. I use it about 2 or 3 times a month, cutting 4 or 5 shapes at a time, so not excessive in my opinion.

I ordered the PC 1 3/4 hp router in January. In March, it had burning smell and weird noise, took it in, they replaced almost everything, took about 6weeks that I was without it. I got it back and it was working fine until the other day and now doing it again and having to send it back in. I don't know if I got a lemon or if I'm not using the right size tool for what I need. Do I need more hp? I didn't want to go to one of the huge routers that only take 1/2" bits since I already have my template guide and all that for my 1/4" bits

Oh and I use a 10gauge extension cord with it.

So what should I order? need one ASAP :confused:
Thank you!
Lucy

[Jeff Ramsey]

Hi, I searched the forums but the posts I found were older and wanted to see if more current recommendations are out there. Quick background on my needs... I'm an artist and only use a router for one thing, cutting out large (up to 4' x 4'), sometimes intricate, wood shapes out of 1/2" hardwood sanded plywood from Lowes. I use my own MDF templates, a template guide and whiteside spiral upcut bits. I change bits about every 5 pattern shapes. I use it about 2 or 3 times a month, cutting 4 or 5 shapes at a time, so not excessive in my opinion.

I ordered the PC 1 3/4 hp router in January. In March, it had burning smell and weird noise, took it in, they replaced almost everything, took about 6weeks that I was without it. I got it back and it was working fine until the other day and now doing it again and having to send it back in. I don't know if I got a lemon or if I'm not using the right size tool for what I need. Do I need more hp? I didn't want to go to one of the huge routers that only take 1/2" bits since I already have my template guide and all that for my 1/4" bits

Oh and I use a 10gauge extension cord with it.

So what should I order? need one ASAP :confused:
Thank you!
Lucy

You take a full half inch swipe with your router, or you lower it with several passes? If the former, that seems excessive to me; particularly with your router HP and 1/4" bits. If I take a 1/2" swipe with my PC 1 3/4 HP router, it'll complain and I can watch the brushes arc across the commutator. If you want to hog through 1/2" plywood with one pass, you might consider at least upping the HP to something like a 7518 (and I'd also use 1/2" bits):

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?139615-Buying-a-new-Porter-Cable-7518-Good-Idea-Dumb-Idea

[Larry Frank]

I agree with Jeff about continuous use. If you are taking a deep cut and running a long time, that could burn up a router. I would go to a 2-1/4 hp router and looking at letting it cool down. Also make certain to blow it out once in awhile. Of course the higher hp will be heavier.

Maybe there are some folks in the CNC forum who have experience on which routers can run for long times

[pat warner]

You need a plunger. A plunger will go through anything, given modest waste/stage-cut.
A DW 621 or Bosch 1166, 2HP is enough to get through aluminum!

[Lucy Langlois]

I do have a plunger base... I don't know if I understand how that makes a difference?

[William C Rogers]

Not an expert, but think you need more hp (2 1/4). I have three brands, Freud, Bosch, and Hitachi all 2 1/4hp. I have used the Bosch extensively and never a problem. Freud is nice, but slightly larger. The Hitachi is nice and compact, however I only use it for dovetails and not real sure of the reliability. I do like the Hitachi as it is the quietest and most compact. It also uses the PC guides in its base. You can get the Hitachi for around a $120, but I don't have a lot of time on this router.

[Jeff Ramsey]

I do have a plunger base... I don't know if I understand how that makes a difference?

It's about the HP, not the base. If you've a template you're running a bearing along, a plunger could help with taking the cut in stages, and dropping the bit down a little at a time (but you can do the same thing with a fixed base). But if you had a larger router, you could probably take the cut in one pass with a fixed base and wouldn't need a plunger.

[Lucy Langlois]

yes, I just use the fixed base. I tried going in two passes a few times and every time I tried it leaves a bump in the middle of the cut wood shape that I then have to sand off, I'm not sure why it does it? Even with fresh bit.

[Mike Cutler]

I do have a plunger base... I don't know if I understand how that makes a difference?

Lucy

The plunge allows you to start any where on the template form to begin the cut. Not necessarily starting at an edge. The plunge mechanism would be set for progressively deeper plunge cuts. Ultimately it gives you more control. It may take 3 or more complete passes to router the entire template form.
You really need a 1/2" shanked bit. This is too much for a 1/4" shank bit. If you have to stick with the 1/4" bit, you will need to take more passes at progressively deeper depths. You may find that two routers are what you need. A 1/2" to router the larger areas and 1/4" to router the more delicate, or finer areas of the form.
Spiral up or down bits are not always the best bits for bottom cleaning depending on their physical design. You may consider investing in some quality bits with bottom cutters to more efficiently cut and clear waste as the router moves along.

If you're not using a vacuum in conjunction with your router, you, and the router, are doing a lot of extra work. The debris really needs to be cleared as you router the form. On large forms I've used both vacuums and, or, large fans, to blow out the debris as I work.

The DW621 Pat recommended is a great router. It's very smooth, powerful and not overly large. It is also widely available.

BTW
Pat Warner is the "expert". He literally writes the "How To" books on using a router. ;)

[Jeff Ramsey]

yes, I just use the fixed base. I tried going in two passes a few times and every time I tried it leaves a bump in the middle of the cut wood shape that I then have to sand off, I'm not sure why it does it? Even with fresh bit.

Thats the risk of multiple passes. A slight cant, or a shaft that isn't perfect or a collet that isn't perfect and you get a ridge which is why it would be better to up your HP and take it with one pass. If you're going to cut a lot of these, it might also be worth redoing your template to account for 1/2" bits. If I start cutting dovetails with my 1 3/4 HP PC, it complains mightily and I then know I should be using a larger HP router.

[Lucy Langlois]

Thats the risk of multiple passes. A slight cant, or a shaft that isn't perfect or a collet that isn't perfect and you get a ridge which is why it would be better to up your HP and take it with one pass. If you're going to cut a lot of these, it might also be worth redoing your template to account for 1/2" bits. If I start cutting dovetails with my 1 3/4 HP PC, it complains mightily and I then know I should be using a larger HP router.

ok, that makes sense, I wondered why it did that!

[Lucy Langlois]

Ugh, that's not what I want to hear and had a feeling that's the advice I was going to get... about the 1/2" shank. No, I don't use a vacuum, I set up outside. The idea of 2 routers, 1/4" for finer details makes sense.
I'm just overwhelmed at the price of the 1/2" bits I've looked at

[Lucy Langlois]

Just to show y'all an example of what I'm cutting out. I'm just a novice user on routers. I used to use a rotozip saw to cut them out and then discovered the router/template method. Do any of you think with a higher HP router, I could get away with sticking with the 1/4" shank bits?

Also, is there some kind of router that has an easier method to loosen the collet to change the bits other than the wrench deal? Hate to play the girl card, but, yeah, it takes me a long time sometimes to loosen the collet because I don't have the hand/arm strength
317187

[Jeff Ramsey]

There are two issues with the PC stock wrenches. First, there is no offset for the bottom wrench (not on mine, anyway) and they're awkward to keep aligned. Second, you're at a straight from the point of force, rather than an angle with a crowfoot wrench, and get whatever torque you generate with force at the end. You can get more torque with a crowfoot. Try this. Using the stock wrenches, line up the bottom wrench and offset the top wrench the correct direction depending on whether you're tightening or loosening. You want the top wrench and bottom wrench slightly offset so they fit in one hand. Apply the force by squeezing one hand together against both wrenches; don't use two hands. This "may" apply enough force (and thus torque) without risk of scraping your knuckles if one of the wrenches comes loose (as is common using the two-hand method). If you cannot consistently generate enough torque this way, consider a crowfoot wrench. Also, there are after-market offset wrenches (typically bottom) to deal with the awkwardness of using two straight wrenches at two different points.

[glenn bradley]

All this is JMHO and not intended to start any brand-loyalty wars ;-)

Routers are pretty personal items but, I'll risk giving my opinion based on those I've kept and those I've sent packing. Power to weight ratio for your task puts you in the 2-1/4HP area. Variable speed can help you find a sweet spot for the complexity of the template being followed. Do not use the router as a jigsaw to make the entire cut; cut close to the line with a jigsaw and then trim to the template with the router.

With the exception of the 621 and 625 I would ignore DeWalt routers. All Porter Cable products are suspect at this point in history. Bosch is hanging in there but their models can be "gadgety" with special features you may not want or need but, still have to pay for. I haven't bought a Milwaukee in years and so don't know their current quality. I have a half a dozen Milwaukees in all power ranges and they do nothing but work. The same can be said of older Porter Cable routers; they just keep going.

To your statement about wrenches, use two wrenches. If your router doesn't use two wrenches I'd consider another. I do bit changes too often to be annoyed with a poor collet system. With two wrenches (http://www.rockler.com/how-to/proper-tightness-collets-router-bits-bit-shanks/)you neither require great strength to tighten or loosen the collet. If you have a router that accepts it, collets that use an allen wrench (http://www.rockler.com/quick-change-musclechucktrade-musclechuck) are available for $60 or so.

[Mike Cutler]

Just to show y'all an example of what I'm cutting out. I'm just a novice user on routers. I used to use a rotozip saw to cut them out and then discovered the router/template method. Do any of you think with a higher HP router, I could get away with sticking with the 1/4" shank bits?

Also, is there some kind of router that has an easier method to loosen the collet to change the bits other than the wrench deal? Hate to play the girl card, but, yeah, it takes me a long time sometimes to loosen the collet because I don't have the hand/arm strength
317187

Lucy
If I am understanding you correctly, you are using only a router to make this form, and others like it? In other words you don't remove the bulk of the waste with a jig saw, or a small bandsaw.

I would disagree, without seeing more, that multiple passes are the cause of the small ridge you're getting. I've done some pretty large template work, and haven't had that problem be a function of the router, but of the template not having a perfect 90 degree vertical edge. Often times the template takes much longer to make than the workpiece material. The other cause is not clearing the debris as you router. (This is assuming that you have centered the template busing and bit. Are you using a center finding tool when setting up your router base/template bushing?)
If you're getting that mermaid's nose with a router only, that's pretty good.;)

Breaking router collet nuts loosecan be a pain. They really can get locked on there during use. Generally the wrenches that come with the router are short and "crappy", which doesn't help. It could be that if you get the same sized open end wrenches that they will be longer and give you more leverage. I have the larger Festool routers, and even they can be a "little manly" to break loose. I've never used a "quick change collet", but it's something you might consider.

Increasing a router's horsepower is only part of it. The router you're using, and any larger router, will have no problem over powering a 1/4" shank bit. You have enough power for a 1/4" shank. The bit right now is your limiting factor.

[Kent A Bathurst]

My turn........

I have a bunch of the PC 690-style routers - that is what you have. SOme old fixed speed 1.5 HP, some newer VS 1.75 HP. Would not bother me to use them in this application - - - the downside is that you might not be able to do it in one pass. A bigger HP router has its advantages, but you also realize its disadvantages. I have no problem with the 690 - I think you are overdriving it currently.

I have the impression that the PC 8xx series is now officially junk - get the DW instead, if you go to this class starcruiser. The PC 75xx is still good, but man - I would not want to be wraslin' that horse around - it is best suited to a router table, IMO.

Or - go full-on D-Day on the problem, and get a used overhead pin router.......:p

Reading your process description, I am all but certain that your template sits on top of the 1/2" ply, and the "template guide" you refer to is the brass templet bushing, correct? Just double-checking on important detail.

Two options:

Multiple passes:

Template on top, brass templet bushing installed in the base plate; Use a 1/4" cutter diameter, on a plunge base. Make 3 pases at about 3/16" each. If you can feel/hear the motor bogging down, you are pushing too hard/fast.

Zip then route:

Do a 2-step process. Don't know what you used as a guide/template when you used the Rotozip?
But - the way to do this method is to use the rotozip and cut out the waste - but stay off the final line. Then closer you can get to the line, the better - but stay just off of it.

Use the template and the router - but with a flush-trim bit instead of the spiral. You are taking off much less waste in total, plus you are only cutting on one side of the bit - much less load on the router.

You also have the option of a "plain" flush trim, or a top-bearing flush trim that runs against the template without your brass bushings installed. You can even us a bottom-bearing bit, and put the template underneath the 1/2" ply.

[Tom M King]

1/4" collets will fit in the larger PC routers. I use a 1/2" at every opportunity though.

[John TenEyck]

Hey, I'm a guy and still have trouble with the collet wrenches. I tighten them by hand, but gave up trying to loosen them with just hand power long ago. I put the two wrenches in place, the one on the shaft sits against my workbench, the one on the collet sits higher up, and then I whack that one with a rubber mallet. A couple of medium whacks and it's loose enough to finish by hand. I've been doing that for over 20 years on my PC 690 with no ill effects so I consider that as proof enough that it's safe to do.

John

[Gerry Grzadzinski]

You put the two wrenches on so that you can squeeze them together in your hands. Makes it very easy to get it very tight, and also to remove them.

Personally, I don't think what you're doing should be causing any damage to your router at all. I've worked in big cabinet shops for 20 years, using porter cable 690's almost exclusively. We've probably got 20 in our shop right now, and take much heavier cuts than you're doing on a daily bases, and we never have any failures. These routers last for years of heavy use.

A 1/4" spiral through plywood is not a heavy cut. Going to a 1/2" spiral would be a much heavier cut, but I've seen a 690 cut through 3/4" plywood in one pass with a 1/2" spiral with no issues.

What parts are they replacing when you have it repaired?

[Kent A Bathurst]

You put the two wrenches on so that you can squeeze them together in your hands. Makes it very easy to get it very tight, and also to remove them.



Exactly - leave 1" or so gap between the wrenches, and squeeze to tighten. Swap the positions and squeeze to loosen. The router rotation wants to tighten the collet, so you don't need a lot of muscle to tighten.

Me too on the 690...I rough-cut 6/4 [finished to 1-5/16"] HM on a band saw - making 20" round tabouret table tops - and then run a 690 on a center jig, with a straight cut bit, and probably 4 passes, and it works great. I have not been able to kill one yet.

[Lucy Langlois]

There are two issues with the PC stock wrenches. First, there is no offset for the bottom wrench (not on mine, anyway) and they're awkward to keep aligned. Second, you're at a straight from the point of force, rather than an angle with a crowfoot wrench, and get whatever torque you generate with force at the end. You can get more torque with a crowfoot. Try this. Using the stock wrenches, line up the bottom wrench and offset the top wrench the correct direction depending on whether you're tightening or loosening. You want the top wrench and bottom wrench slightly offset so they fit in one hand. Apply the force by squeezing one hand together against both wrenches; don't use two hands. This "may" apply enough force (and thus torque) without risk of scraping your knuckles if one of the wrenches comes loose (as is common using the two-hand method). If you cannot consistently generate enough torque this way, consider a crowfoot wrench. Also, there are after-market offset wrenches (typically bottom) to deal with the awkwardness of using two straight wrenches at two different points.

Thanks Jeff, yes, I actually do that with the 2 wrenches to tighten and I'm about to embarrass myself big time and say it never occurred to me to do the same thing to loosen. duh (feeling dumb!) oh well, it's all about live and learn


All this is JMHO and not intended to start any brand-loyalty wars ;-)

Routers are pretty personal items but, I'll risk giving my opinion based on those I've kept and those I've sent packing. Power to weight ratio for your task puts you in the 2-1/4HP area. Variable speed can help you find a sweet spot for the complexity of the template being followed. Do not use the router as a jigsaw to make the entire cut; cut close to the line with a jigsaw and then trim to the template with the router.

With the exception of the 621 and 625 I would ignore DeWalt routers. All Porter Cable products are suspect at this point in history. Bosch is hanging in there but their models can be "gadgety" with special features you may not want or need but, still have to pay for. I haven't bought a Milwaukee in years and so don't know their current quality. I have a half a dozen Milwaukees in all power ranges and they do nothing but work. The same can be said of older Porter Cable routers; they just keep going.

To your statement about wrenches, use two wrenches. If your router doesn't use two wrenches I'd consider another. I do bit changes too often to be annoyed with a poor collet system. With two wrenches (http://www.rockler.com/how-to/proper-tightness-collets-router-bits-bit-shanks/)you neither require great strength to tighten or loosen the collet. If you have a router that accepts it, collets that use an allen wrench (http://www.rockler.com/quick-change-musclechucktrade-musclechuck) are available for $60 or so.

I absolutely appreciate any and all input! This was my first router and I'm still learning. I read reviews about it and just went with this PC that I have. I did not think about cutting close to the shape first with a jigsaw, makes sense like it wouldn't put as much strain on the router. I'm hopeful to find a solution to keep using the 1/4" bits so I don't have to re-work 7 large patterns plus the 1/2" bits are so expensive and the super big routers seem really overwhelming to me.
I just need something for this one purpose since I don't use it for anything else.
See above about my brain lapse on the wrench loosening!


My turn........

I have a bunch of the PC 690-style routers - that is what you have. SOme old fixed speed 1.5 HP, some newer VS 1.75 HP. Would not bother me to use them in this application - - - the downside is that you might not be able to do it in one pass. A bigger HP router has its advantages, but you also realize its disadvantages. I have no problem with the 690 - I think you are overdriving it currently.

I have the impression that the PC 8xx series is now officially junk - get the DW instead, if you go to this class starcruiser. The PC 75xx is still good, but man - I would not want to be wraslin' that horse around - it is best suited to a router table, IMO.

Or - go full-on D-Day on the problem, and get a used overhead pin router.......:p

Reading your process description, I am all but certain that your template sits on top of the 1/2" ply, and the "template guide" you refer to is the brass templet bushing, correct? Just double-checking on important detail.

Two options:

Multiple passes:

Template on top, brass templet bushing installed in the base plate; Use a 1/4" cutter diameter, on a plunge base. Make 3 pases at about 3/16" each. If you can feel/hear the motor bogging down, you are pushing too hard/fast.

Zip then route:

Do a 2-step process. Don't know what you used as a guide/template when you used the Rotozip?
But - the way to do this method is to use the rotozip and cut out the waste - but stay off the final line. Then closer you can get to the line, the better - but stay just off of it.

Use the template and the router - but with a flush-trim bit instead of the spiral. You are taking off much less waste in total, plus you are only cutting on one side of the bit - much less load on the router.

You also have the option of a "plain" flush trim, or a top-bearing flush trim that runs against the template without your brass bushings installed. You can even us a bottom-bearing bit, and put the template underneath the 1/2" ply.

Hi Kent! Yes, I have my pattern on top of the plywood and have the metal PC template guide that fits down in the router base plate and goes along the edge of the mdf pattern. I have tried going multiple passes, I mentioned above and it has always left me with a bump in the middle of my shape and then I spend a lot of time sanding that off. :/
I do have a plunge base that came with mine and I've never used it. usually my patterns come right to the edge of the 4 x 4 sheet of ply and I just come in right at that edge with the fixed base.
When I was using the rotozip, I would draw my pattern on then free hand follow with the rotozip... pain in the @ss plus it had a tendency to chew up the edges and left a lot of sanding. I was so happy when I found the router method on youtube ha! But yes, that makes sense, I believe Glenn mentioned above too about cutting excess off first.

I started like this from the vids I saw on youtube of a man cutting out his (much) smaller shapes this way and I just used everything he did so I know nothing of the other bits... except I did "try" using one of the "bearing" bits (?)... with the little roller thing and just didn't feel as comfortable as when I went to the template guide.

Ok, so go with a flush trim bit if I am basically just cutting the excess off on the edge?


1/4" collets will fit in the larger PC routers. I use a 1/2" at every opportunity though.

Thanks! I didn't realize that.

So I think I will look at the DW 621 that y'all mentioned or maybe look at a Milwaukee

[Lucy Langlois]

Lucy
If I am understanding you correctly, you are using only a router to make this form, and others like it? In other words you don't remove the bulk of the waste with a jig saw, or a small bandsaw.

I would disagree, without seeing more, that multiple passes are the cause of the small ridge you're getting. I've done some pretty large template work, and haven't had that problem be a function of the router, but of the template not having a perfect 90 degree vertical edge. Often times the template takes much longer to make than the workpiece material. The other cause is not clearing the debris as you router. (This is assuming that you have centered the template busing and bit. Are you using a center finding tool when setting up your router base/template bushing?)
If you're getting that mermaid's nose with a router only, that's pretty good.;)

Breaking router collet nuts loosecan be a pain. They really can get locked on there during use. Generally the wrenches that come with the router are short and "crappy", which doesn't help. It could be that if you get the same sized open end wrenches that they will be longer and give you more leverage. I have the larger Festool routers, and even they can be a "little manly" to break loose. I've never used a "quick change collet", but it's something you might consider.

Increasing a router's horsepower is only part of it. The router you're using, and any larger router, will have no problem over powering a 1/4" shank bit. You have enough power for a 1/4" shank. The bit right now is your limiting factor.

Yes, Mike, I didn't know or think about cutting off excess. Hmmm... on the ridge I'm getting. I don't know. I used my jigsaw and rotozip to make them out of Mdf and was careful to sand them and make them as clean as possible. Yes, I am using just the router to do that whole thing, face and all. That is the largest mermaid at 4ft tall, I make smaller ones and I'm still able to get good face definition :).. this is my smallest size and about 34" wide.

Yes, I mentioned above that I feel pretty stupid telling y'all that I've used the 2 wrenches to tighten the collet by squeezing them together but it never occurred to me to use the same process to loosen. I was trying to basically pull them apart in opposite directions... don't laugh

I do not know about centering the template guide or using a center finding tool:eek:
So... what bit should I be using?
317208

[Lucy Langlois]

Hey, I'm a guy and still have trouble with the collet wrenches. I tighten them by hand, but gave up trying to loosen them with just hand power long ago. I put the two wrenches in place, the one on the shaft sits against my workbench, the one on the collet sits higher up, and then I whack that one with a rubber mallet. A couple of medium whacks and it's loose enough to finish by hand. I've been doing that for over 20 years on my PC 690 with no ill effects so I consider that as proof enough that it's safe to do.

John

That's exactly what I've been doing to loosen! hitting with the mallet :)

[Tom M King]

Whiteside has quick turnaround on bit sharpening. I only buy Whiteside bits unless extremely unusual circumstances. Maybe don't try this at home, but I use full sized wrenches. If you do use full sized wrenches, don't try to put a lot of force on them. It doesn't take much. I have stacks of the stamped wrenches that come with the routers that have never been used.

[Mel Fulks]

I would try a SINGLE flute 1/2 inch bit. It will cut MUCH faster and will not strain router you have now. That router should have a 1/2 collet with it ,if it doesn't ..they are cheap. Yes ,you will have to change the templates.

[Jim Dwight]

Roughing with a jigsaw and then finishing with the router is a good plan. I really like my Bosch jigsaw - they are known for jigsaws. A way to do much the same thing with just the router and the same bits would be to move to a slightly larger template guide, then cut the shape in a couple passes, then switch to the template guide you are using to trim the last 1/16 in one pass. No ridge this way and not over-stressing the router. I have two mid-sized PC 690s and they have never even needed brushes. I've used them to do panel raising with bits over 3 inches diameter (slowed down). I had to make multiple passes but they did fine. I think you have an issue learning a way to use the tool, not with the tool itself.

I would not increase the size of the bit to 1/2 inch. You will be removing a lot more material making the situation even worse. A 1/4 spiral bit is fine for this.

Cheapest way to do this is a new template guide. Cut in two passes with the larger (I suggest 1/16 larger) template guide and then clean it up in one pass with the smaller template guide. I would also use an older bit to cut the shape and then a newer one to clean up the cut. You may save a bit on bits this way too.

Jim

[Mel Fulks]

I have rapidly cut 3/4 inch plywood in one pass many times. Worked in commercial shops for many years,most did not have ANY single flute bits til they saw mine. Going to single flute is like using a rip saw instead of a fine tooth saw.

[Rick Fisher]

I would use the template to draw the shape;
use a good jig saw to cut away all but 1/8" ..
then put the template back on and use a 1/2" bit on your router to clean it up ..


I use lots of 1/4" bits but I prefer 1/2" shanks for long term cutting where heat can build up.

I like your work .. :)

[Lucy Langlois]

You put the two wrenches on so that you can squeeze them together in your hands. Makes it very easy to get it very tight, and also to remove them.

Personally, I don't think what you're doing should be causing any damage to your router at all. I've worked in big cabinet shops for 20 years, using porter cable 690's almost exclusively. We've probably got 20 in our shop right now, and take much heavier cuts than you're doing on a daily bases, and we never have any failures. These routers last for years of heavy use.

A 1/4" spiral through plywood is not a heavy cut. Going to a 1/2" spiral would be a much heavier cut, but I've seen a 690 cut through 3/4" plywood in one pass with a 1/2" spiral with no issues.

What parts are they replacing when you have it repaired?

well that's refreshing to hear. I don't know off the top of my head, I know brushes was one of the parts.

[Lucy Langlois]

Roughing with a jigsaw and then finishing with the router is a good plan. I really like my Bosch jigsaw - they are known for jigsaws. A way to do much the same thing with just the router and the same bits would be to move to a slightly larger template guide, then cut the shape in a couple passes, then switch to the template guide you are using to trim the last 1/16 in one pass. No ridge this way and not over-stressing the router. I have two mid-sized PC 690s and they have never even needed brushes. I've used them to do panel raising with bits over 3 inches diameter (slowed down). I had to make multiple passes but they did fine. I think you have an issue learning a way to use the tool, not with the tool itself.

I would not increase the size of the bit to 1/2 inch. You will be removing a lot more material making the situation even worse. A 1/4 spiral bit is fine for this.

Cheapest way to do this is a new template guide. Cut in two passes with the larger (I suggest 1/16 larger) template guide and then clean it up in one pass with the smaller template guide. I would also use an older bit to cut the shape and then a newer one to clean up the cut. You may save a bit on bits this way too.

Jim

Oh, that sounds like a really great idea. thank you! So still take most off with the jigsaw, then larger template guide and then the one I have now correct? Can't wait to try this.

[Lucy Langlois]

I would use the template to draw the shape;
use a good jig saw to cut away all but 1/8" ..
then put the template back on and use a 1/2" bit on your router to clean it up ..


I use lots of 1/4" bits but I prefer 1/2" shanks for long term cutting where heat can build up.

I like your work .. :)

Thanks Rick!...and I'm definitely going to remove the excess now before routing, makes so much sense

[Lucy Langlois]

I would try a SINGLE flute 1/2 inch bit. It will cut MUCH faster and will not strain router you have now. That router should have a 1/2 collet with it ,if it doesn't ..they are cheap. Yes ,you will have to change the templates.

ok, yes, it came with 1/2 collet. so single flute bit with the template guide instead of the spiral upcut type bit?

[Mel Fulks]

Last try, I promise. Google the bit size and flute number question. Amana says one flute is faster ,might not leave as smooth a surface. Didn't read more than one mfg answer since I was looking for cite....not holding an election.

[Mike Cutler]

Yes, Mike, I didn't know or think about cutting off excess. Hmmm... on the ridge I'm getting. I don't know. I used my jigsaw and rotozip to make them out of Mdf and was careful to sand them and make them as clean as possible. Yes, I am using just the router to do that whole thing, face and all. That is the largest mermaid at 4ft tall, I make smaller ones and I'm still able to get good face definition :).. this is my smallest size and about 34" wide.

Yes, I mentioned above that I feel pretty stupid telling y'all that I've used the 2 wrenches to tighten the collet by squeezing them together but it never occurred to me to use the same process to loosen. I was trying to basically pull them apart in opposite directions... don't laugh

I do not know about centering the template guide or using a center finding tool:eek:
So... what bit should I be using?
317208

Lucy
No worries, no one is laughing about the wrenches. I have many, many, scars on my fingers and hands from getting "manly" with tools. If you're going to use a mallet to "persuade" the wrench, make sure it's a soft face mallet, not metallic. Remember that "metal on metal, hurts a fella". ;)

A centering tool is a small tool for a router that sort of looks like a big golf tee. What it does is to center the template collar,and baseplate, to the router collet centerline, so that no matter which way the router is turned, while routing against a template, the bit is centered in the template bushing and will always maintain the same distance, relative to the centerline of the router template bushing.
Here is what it looks like; http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/144931/Router-Base-Plate-with-Centering-Pin.aspx
Here is a short You Tube video on it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiNxhpVtGeg

If you were to hand me one of those to do, I would trace the online onto the Plywood, and cut to within an 1/8" of the line with a jig saw. Put the template back in place and then use either a straight cutter, or a spiral bit, depending on how much tear out or fraying I was getting, due to the quality of the plywood.
The hair and arms are going to require a plunge, so I would make sure that the bit had bottom cutters to plunge through. I would probably use an 1/8" bit on a 1/4" shank for the fine detail.
I like the bits Mel referred too. Something to consider, given the alternating layers of the plywood substrate.

There are many ways to accomplish the same task. it's just a matter of finding the one you are comfortable with.

[Frank Martin]

First, listen the guys that posted before me about the how to acccomplish the task. Regarding specific routers, I have and think greatly of the DW621 but Pat had problems with recent manufacture. If you have the funds can't go wrong with a Festool OF1400. It also has an easy way to change collets. It is however more than twice the cost of others. If not that, today I would probably go with a Bosch after hearing complaints about newer DW621s. Good luck!

[Kent A Bathurst]

No worries, no one is laughing about the wrenches. I have many, many, scars on my fingers and hands from getting "manly" with tools.


If you were to hand me one of those to do, I would trace the online onto the Plywood, and cut to within an 1/8" of the line with a jig saw. Put the template back in place and then use either a straight cutter, or a spiral bit, depending on how much tear out or fraying I was getting, due to the quality of the plywood.
The hair and arms are going to require a plunge, so I would make sure that the bit had bottom cutters to plunge through. I would probably use an 1/8" bit on a 1/4" shank for the fine detail.



As per, Mike is dead on. His explanation is easier to follow than what I was trying to explain.

If you are trying to end up with a very clean, smooth edge, you can always finish up with a rasp, which is a whole 'nuther rabbit hole to jump into.

Good Luck - you will definitely get there - your "get after it" attitude comes through loud and clear.

Is there any chance we could see a photo or two of the finished piece[s]?

[John Lemke]

Are you replacing bits because you see the quality of the cut degrading? I haven't routed plywood all that much so I might be off base here, but it sure seems to me that you're going through bits too rapidly if you're replacing them every five shapes. The jigsaw first approach will be kinder to your bits in any event.

[Lucy Langlois]

Are you replacing bits because you see the quality of the cut degrading? I haven't routed plywood all that much so I might be off base here, but it sure seems to me that you're going through bits too rapidly if you're replacing them every five shapes. The jigsaw first approach will be kinder to your bits in any event.

I agree, I take them off and clean them and it helps for a bit but it just starts dragging and when I put a new bit in, it cuts like butter so I was assuming it needed a new bit. I'm not happy about the rate I go through bits, I had to increase prices on those pieces to account for that.

[Lucy Langlois]

As per, Mike is dead on. His explanation is easier to follow than what I was trying to explain.

If you are trying to end up with a very clean, smooth edge, you can always finish up with a rasp, which is a whole 'nuther rabbit hole to jump into.

Good Luck - you will definitely get there - your "get after it" attitude comes through loud and clear.

Is there any chance we could see a photo or two of the finished piece[s]?

I want to avoid rabbit holes lol! This is a link to my online shop... https://www.etsy.com/shop/LucyDesignsonline where I have all the sizes of the mermaids. They have stained glass or shells. I also cut out the angel wings and octopuses with the router. :) And then I have other hand painted pieces

I use the fairly decent plywood (for my purposes) that is nice and straight and knot free, about 30 bucks a sheet at my Lowes but depending on what I'm cutting out, I can get quite a few shapes out of one sheet

[Jim Dwight]

Oh, that sounds like a really great idea. thank you! So still take most off with the jigsaw, then larger template guide and then the one I have now correct? Can't wait to try this.

Lucy, I wasn't suggesting a 3 step process, just alternate ideas for a two step. I would either use the jigsaw (if you are comfortable with them) or do the basic cutout with an oversize template guide in the router. Either way, the final pass would happen like you are doing now, but there would be a lot less material to remove.

I noticed later you comment you are going through a lot of bits, either way would help that too.

I like a jigsaw but that method of doing the roughing cutout would require more concentration - to never remove material that needs to remain. The oversized template guide would involve the same mechanics you are used to, you would just need to do it more than once (maybe three times if you do the roughing cut in two passes plus one final cleanup). To further expand on that idea, you could put the motor on the plunge base with the oversized template guide for the roughing cut and then move the same motor and bit to the fixed base with your current template guide for the final cleanup cut.

I find the PC router collet wrenches to work a lot better if I position them so all I have to do is squeeze. Sometimes I have to flip one over to get them the right distance apart but squeezing works better for me than pulling on them. Particularly when loosening I have to mess with the wrenches a few seconds to get them in the right position but then it is just a firm handshake motion and the collet is loose. If you really want leverage, however, you could get a couple combination wrenches of the appropriate size. I didn't do that for the PC but I have an old Ryobi R-500 motor in my router table and I use a conventional open end wrench on it rather than the short one it came with.

[Lucy Langlois]

"The oversized template guide would involve the same mechanics you are used to, you would just need to do it more than once (maybe three times if you do the roughing cut in two passes plus one final cleanup). To further expand on that idea, you could put the motor on the plunge base with the oversized template guide for the roughing cut and then move the same motor and bit to the fixed base with your current template guide for the final cleanup cut. "

thanks for clarifying. I'm liking the idea quoted above. I do have a jigsaw (crappy B&D one, I need a new one) and I use them a lot so I wouldn't have a problem with that but I like this method you suggested and making several passes with the oversized guide for the roughing cut.

I ordered a Bosch JS365 jigsaw last year to replace the one I have and I hated it so much. I had to return it. The problem was I couldn't see where I was cutting, even with the clear plate attached. So I haven't ordered anything else to replace mine yet.

[Lucy Langlois]

First, listen the guys that posted before me about the how to acccomplish the task. Regarding specific routers, I have and think greatly of the DW621 but Pat had problems with recent manufacture. If you have the funds can't go wrong with a Festool OF1400. It also has an easy way to change collets. It is however more than twice the cost of others. If not that, today I would probably go with a Bosch after hearing complaints about newer DW621s. Good luck!

oh dear, the DW621 is the one I was thinking of ordering. Since I just need a decent tool for this one use, I might pass on the cost of the Festool... BUT then I think well, if it will get the job done, be easy to use and last, it might be worth it even for this one job I have for it... decisions.

[Lucy Langlois]

Whiteside has quick turnaround on bit sharpening. I only buy Whiteside bits unless extremely unusual circumstances. Maybe don't try this at home, but I use full sized wrenches. If you do use full sized wrenches, don't try to put a lot of force on them. It doesn't take much. I have stacks of the stamped wrenches that come with the routers that have never been used.

I did know that about Whiteside and really need to send mine in for sharpening! I have quite a few :)

[Lucy Langlois]

Lucy
No worries, no one is laughing about the wrenches. I have many, many, scars on my fingers and hands from getting "manly" with tools. If you're going to use a mallet to "persuade" the wrench, make sure it's a soft face mallet, not metallic. Remember that "metal on metal, hurts a fella". ;)

A centering tool is a small tool for a router that sort of looks like a big golf tee. What it does is to center the template collar,and baseplate, to the router collet centerline, so that no matter which way the router is turned, while routing against a template, the bit is centered in the template bushing and will always maintain the same distance, relative to the centerline of the router template bushing.
Here is what it looks like; http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/144931/Router-Base-Plate-with-Centering-Pin.aspx
Here is a short You Tube video on it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiNxhpVtGeg

If you were to hand me one of those to do, I would trace the online onto the Plywood, and cut to within an 1/8" of the line with a jig saw. Put the template back in place and then use either a straight cutter, or a spiral bit, depending on how much tear out or fraying I was getting, due to the quality of the plywood.
The hair and arms are going to require a plunge, so I would make sure that the bit had bottom cutters to plunge through. I would probably use an 1/8" bit on a 1/4" shank for the fine detail.
I like the bits Mel referred too. Something to consider, given the alternating layers of the plywood substrate.

There are many ways to accomplish the same task. it's just a matter of finding the one you are comfortable with.

well that little thing is genius. I've bookmarked to order later because I have noticed my bit sometimes doesn't look like it's in the center of the guide. Does the straight cutter bit have bottom cutters for plunging or are those strictly for cutting the edges of stuff? I've only used the spiral upcut.

[Jim Dwight]

Lucy,

I own 5 routers and have used others. I don't think you will notice any big difference between the DW621 and the ones you have. There are little things you would like better about one versus the other but the motor size is about the same, both have at least decent collets and both have decent ways to adjust depth. That is what a router does. I've never used a Festool anything and I may never but the Domino interests me. If I was to drink the green cool aid, it wouldn't start with a router. There are lots of pretty good ones that cost a whole lot less than a Festool.

But if you are willing to change bits, you can do your roughing cuts with a router bit that isn't real sharp. At most you make an additional pass and smaller bites. Then use a really sharp and clean one for the final pass. That would help on bits. I hate throwing them out too. Routers all dull bits at about the same rate.

You don't need spiral upcut bits for this. But if you use regular straight bits, you want one with a bottom cutter. It will make holes much better. At least for the roughing cut you need to be able to make a hole. A single flute bit takes half as many cuts and dulls twice as fast as a two flute bit. I have some but I am no fan of them.

A 1/2 shank will greatly minimize any slipping in the collet but I don't remember you mentioning that as an issue. A whiteside wouldn't break at the transition between the 1/2 shank and the 1/4 cutter but I've had cheaper brands break there. A 1/2 diameter straight bit is more robust and could fit with a plan to go to a 15A router but I don't see why that would fit your situation.

I think you just need a new template guide and maybe some straight bits with bottom cutters. I like CMT bits, I hear Freud are good, and I like Whiteside. I am not sure if I would trust them for a 1/2 shank necked to a 1/4 cutter but I use a lot of MLCS bits. A 1/4 shank 1/4 cutter bit would be fine from MLCS. I think you said you need to keep the cutter the same size to keep from a major project on your templates and I see no reason to embark on that project.

But two routers is not overkill in my book. I like the interchangability of having two PC 690s. I have four bases for them and like just moving motors. But for your situation, you could have a roughing setup and a finish setup if you had two routers. I also have a bigger and a smaller router and a couple junk routers.

[Mel Fulks]

[QUOTE=Jim Dwight;2443055]Lucy,

"A single flute bit takes half as many cuts and dulls twice as fast as a two flute bit. I have some but I am no fan of them"
Since she is concerned with efficient speed ,does not want to ruin a router, has no interest in counting cuts, and is open to getting them re sharpened ....and you don't like the ones you have...why not send them to her?

[Mike Cutler]

well that little thing is genius. I've bookmarked to order later because I have noticed my bit sometimes doesn't look like it's in the center of the guide. Does the straight cutter bit have bottom cutters for plunging or are those strictly for cutting the edges of stuff? I've only used the spiral upcut.

Straight bits come in three geometries that I am familiar with. There is a pattern straight bit that has no cutters on the bottom. There is one that has two cutters that would overlap, so that you could plunge, and I've seen some that have two cutters on the bottom that don't overlap for clearing waste, but not plunging.
All are available with bearings on top, shank end, to follow templates, and even a bearing on the bottom of the bit that has no bottom cutters.
Technically speaking your spirals are straight bits, whenever up, or down. The bit that Mel referred to would also be a single flute straight bit. I haven't used one of those, but based on Mel's input, I'm going to give them a go. Routing plywood is always a pain in the neck, and if that bit makes it easier, I'm all for it.
Straight bits are the workhorses. They may not seem to do much, but what they do is important. If you're going to "splurge" on a router bit, and go top shelf. Spend it on straight cutters.

[Lucy Langlois]

Lucy,

I own 5 routers and have used others. I don't think you will notice any big difference between the DW621 and the ones you have. There are little things you would like better about one versus the other but the motor size is about the same, both have at least decent collets and both have decent ways to adjust depth. That is what a router does. I've never used a Festool anything and I may never but the Domino interests me. If I was to drink the green cool aid, it wouldn't start with a router. There are lots of pretty good ones that cost a whole lot less than a Festool.

But if you are willing to change bits, you can do your roughing cuts with a router bit that isn't real sharp. At most you make an additional pass and smaller bites. Then use a really sharp and clean one for the final pass. That would help on bits. I hate throwing them out too. Routers all dull bits at about the same rate.

You don't need spiral upcut bits for this. But if you use regular straight bits, you want one with a bottom cutter. It will make holes much better. At least for the roughing cut you need to be able to make a hole. A single flute bit takes half as many cuts and dulls twice as fast as a two flute bit. I have some but I am no fan of them.

A 1/2 shank will greatly minimize any slipping in the collet but I don't remember you mentioning that as an issue. A whiteside wouldn't break at the transition between the 1/2 shank and the 1/4 cutter but I've had cheaper brands break there. A 1/2 diameter straight bit is more robust and could fit with a plan to go to a 15A router but I don't see why that would fit your situation.

I think you just need a new template guide and maybe some straight bits with bottom cutters. I like CMT bits, I hear Freud are good, and I like Whiteside. I am not sure if I would trust them for a 1/2 shank necked to a 1/4 cutter but I use a lot of MLCS bits. A 1/4 shank 1/4 cutter bit would be fine from MLCS. I think you said you need to keep the cutter the same size to keep from a major project on your templates and I see no reason to embark on that project.

But two routers is not overkill in my book. I like the interchangability of having two PC 690s. I have four bases for them and like just moving motors. But for your situation, you could have a roughing setup and a finish setup if you had two routers. I also have a bigger and a smaller router and a couple junk routers.

Yes, I love, love your idea of the larger template guide for the rough cut... in several passes (even trying to use some of my not so sharp bits that I haven't sent to be sharpened)... and finish up as I normally do and that is what my plan is. You are right, the thought of re-doing all those templates in this Florida heat does not appeal at all.
I originally chose the spiral upcut because of how I was cutting straight down into the wood and had researched and found that that type of bit helps clear the material out of the way so that's what I chose, but if the straight bit w/bottom cutter will work, I'm willing to order one and check it out.

At this point, I have to go ahead and order another router while the PC is being repaired and then I'll just have 2 which is fine. I don't have a problem spending, within reason, to get a quality tool since this is for my business and I've learned that there is no comparison when using the right tools for a specific job.
Years ago when I was cutting out these shapes with a jigsaw, I thought I was doing ok... then I discovered the rotozip and thought wow, this is fantastic, especially for making the curved cuts, but since I found the router method, omgosh, there is no going back, it's like night and day! It is SO much easier and efficient and my wood shapes just look more professional.

I just need to get these few tweaks down to make it more efficient. I am so appreciative of all the input, expertise and experience here, it's wonderful. I would have never come up with some of the solutions you guys have given me and I am grateful!

I may try the DW621 since it has a little more HP or just order another PC and use this method and hopefully that will be the ticket. Wrapping up for the day and plan to look online and order tonight :)

[Kent A Bathurst]

I originally chose the spiral upcut because of how I was cutting straight down into the wood and had researched and found that that type of bit helps clear the material out of the way so that's what I chose..............

Not a bad choice at all.


..........I've learned that there is no comparison when using the right tools for a specific job............

Many people go a lifetime without reaching this epiphany. Good for you.


I am so appreciative of all the input, expertise and experience here, it's wonderful. I would have never come up with some of the solutions you guys have given me and I am grateful!

Always happy to help - - a knowledgeable, reasonable, bunch of folks.

Except me, Myk and Harold, of course..........:p