Machine Cost in Canada or the U.S.A.

[Ron Sleeman]

Hello: What I am looking for, is a ballpark price on a Trotec Speedy 400 & Speedy 400 flexx 80w & a Epilog Fusion 40 75w & Epilog
Fusion M2 32 75w. Plus what is the different prices from a demo show to a dealer.

Thanks Ron Sleeman

[Keith Outten]

Ron,

I believe that most of the laser manufacturers prohibit posting the prices of their machines online.
.

[Jeanette Brewer]

Ron,

Where are you located?

[Ron Sleeman]

We are on central British Columbia. I am getting a price from dealers here. But what I'm looking for, is it better to go to a show in Canada or the U.S.A and save some money. I do have time on my hands as my wife & I just sold our CNC & powder coating business. I have a Epilog mini 40w, just want something bigger... Lol

[Tony Lenkic]

Ron,

Sign Association of Canada (Consac) will have trade show on September 25 & 26 in Toronto. Typically there are reps displaying 3-4 laser mfg's.
You may be able to register for free pass.

[Ron Sleeman]

Thanks Tony: I'll check out the site, for the trade show. Might be a cheap flight out there... Lol ... A ll I can say is Epilog is out pricing Trotec right now.

[Keith Winter]

+ 1 for going to the show, typically much better pricing there

[Scott Shepherd]

All I can say is Epilog is out pricing Trotec right now.

Trotec is outperforming Epilog right now :p

[Ross Moshinsky]

Thanks Tony: I'll check out the site, for the trade show. Might be a cheap flight out there... Lol ... A ll I can say is Epilog is out pricing Trotec right now.

About 1 year ago I shopped the "18x24" versions of all three machines. I found making direct comparison when talking price, to be difficult. For example, Epilog and Universal pushed their 50-60W models at the show. Going up to 80W was pretty costly. Something like 3k if I remember correctly. Trotec was selling their 80w for almost the same price as their 60w. Trotec for 60W was priced high. Trotec for 80W was priced very competitively.

So throwing out close to real numbers, the Epilog Helix was about $19-20k with a 60W. The Universal (VLS) with 60W was about $20-21k. The Trotect with a 60 or 80w was about $23-24k. To bump up to 80W for the Epilog or ULS was about $3-5k. Adding the Flexx to the Trotec unit I believe was about 10-15k but I honestly don't remember.

Obviously this doesn't exactly pertain to you since you're looking at the next size up. I believe they hover in the mid to low 30's without the fiber. Adding the fiber you can figure an extra 15k.


Ron,

I believe that most of the laser manufacturers prohibit posting the prices of their machines online.
.

It's very difficult for them to prohibit posting of prices online unless you agree to a NDA. If you contact any of the manufacturers and they send you a quote, unless they write in the email saying "By opening this file you agree that these prices are confidential and cannot be shared with the public" then they have no real leg to stand on. Even with that clause, it may be very difficult to enforce. The reality is, both parties need to enter an agreement and the buyer rarely, if ever, agrees to those terms formally.

[Ron Sleeman]

Lol...Scott its down to what every person is going to do with it. Plus price... Lol

[john passek]

I think Scott is right in his statement. If you do a lot of cutting of wood I was surprised at the performance of my Trotec SP100 60 watt
compared to my mini 24 50 watt.
Don't get me wrong I am more than happy with my Mini, but I would go with a Trotec again if I upgrade.

[Keith Outten]

Ross,

Its not a legal concern. Respect for their company policies are why we don't share information that they prefer to dissiminate directly to their potential customers.

[Keith Winter]

So throwing out close to real numbers, the Epilog Helix was about $19-20k with a 60W. The Universal (VLS) with 60W was about $20-21k. The Trotect with a 60 or 80w was about $23-24k. To bump up to 80W for the Epilog or ULS was about $3-5k. Adding the Flexx to the Trotec unit I believe was about 10-15k but I honestly don't remember.

If those numbers are accurate they are giving you some killer pricing Ross! You must be one of the big fish! ;)

Also agree with Scott on his Trotec comment. Well said sir :)

[Scott Shepherd]

Lol...Scott its down to what every person is going to do with it. Plus price... Lol


I agree Ron, I'm glad you took it as I meant it, in good fun :)

[Ron Sleeman]

Ross, I understand with every deal that is made. We hope we all get a killer deal & we all are happy with it at the end of the day.

[Jeanette Brewer]

1) Pricing, from most manufacturers, would be difficult to share accurately online (or anywhere else, for that matter) since pricing varies from one distributor/territory to the next.

2) In my experience, you can negotiate a "pre-show" special with most distributors and, if there's a better deal AT the show, they'll honor it. Getting your order in before the show beats the potential show rush too. Especially if delivery time is important to you, that's a very good thing.

3) Oddly enough, in my neck of the woods, I hear, more often than not, that Epilog is outperforming Trotec. ;)

4) By now, Ron, if you don't have that "ballpark pricing" you requested in the original post, I'd be shocked. Can't imagine not getting that info back from your local distributors almost immediately, upon request.

[Scott Shepherd]

It's just basic sales techniques. If I post a price online and you compare it to another price online and you decide over $100, rather than over the features, then I, as a sales person, never got to tell you about what makes us a better value, even if we might cost more than our competitor. If I get you on the phone, or even an email, at least I can start to have that conversation.

You have a much better chance of selling to someone you can talk to. Ever walked onto a car lot? They can't get out the door fast enough to try and help you. They want to start that relationship.

[Bert Kemp]

Well first off if I don't have a starting price your never ever gonna get the chance to talk to me. I think most people who are in the market for a high price machine like a laser there still gonna call after they have an idea of price. If I see 3 lasers all the same power and all the same size bed and 3 different price's I'm going to call and ask what makes your better or cost more what features and benefits to me and what I want to do make yours a better choice for me even tho it cost more.
You brought up walking on to a car lot. Big money did you ever see a car on the lot with out a sticker price on it. I don't think so. Now you have a basic idea of what a basic unit will cost and go from there. Oh you want air tac on, you want pwr windows tac on you want blue instead of white . Well you get my point. If I went to a car dealer and saw no prices on the window off to the next dealer I go. Same with a laser. I could have bought a cheaper 60 watt laser from 3 or 4 other place's on the net . All of them had their price's listed and I looked at features, reviews and asked lots of questions the second time around, and decided this one I have was the best value for the money even tho it cost way more then a couple of the others I looked at. I think most people are smarter shoppers for high ticket item and don't let price dictate their purchase's. Just look in here and see the people that buy the Trotec's , epilogs and Universals if price was the only factor ya'll would have Chinese lasers;)


It's just basic sales techniques. If I post a price online and you compare it to another price online and you decide over $100, rather than over the features, then I, as a sales person, never got to tell you about what makes us a better value, even if we might cost more than our competitor. If I get you on the phone, or even an email, at least I can start to have that conversation.

You have a much better chance of selling to someone you can talk to. Ever walked onto a car lot? They can't get out the door fast enough to try and help you. They want to start that relationship.

[Ron Sleeman]

Jeanette, the Trotec dealer has already gave me a call on Friday afternoon. To say that he will give me the show price, even if we do not go. That is a good sign... Lol..Nice to know that I have time on my side.

[Keith Winter]

Bert I agree for the informed buyer upfront pricing is nice but all you have to do is pickup the phone and they will tell you prices. However Scott is right there is a lot more to the various lasers than just price that's why they don't post it. If you just sticker shopped and never considered a laser just because of its price you might really miss out on some features you'd need. Also how would you ever know the build quality or features on a laser if you never spoke to a salesman? The Trotec, universal, and epilog appear to be very similar on paper but in real life they are different, each with differences that one person might prefer over another. As for Chinese, that point is completely invalid. You say they all post and give prices upfront and specs but then you actually get the machine and surprise they didn't put in enough screws, or the bed is screwed up, or the lens are inferior, or you thought you were getting a 100 watt and it's really a 100 watt max tube, the list can go on and on with the Chinese lasers. They know many more ways to cut corners and costs than what they list in the specs. It's not 100% black and white like you are implying it is for us or Chinese lasers.

[Scott Shepherd]

You brought up walking on to a car lot. Big money did you ever see a car on the lot with out a sticker price on it. I don't think so.

You'd be wrong, I've seen many cars without the pricing on the window over the years.

They must be doing something right, this engraving forum keeps getting bigger and bigger and there's new Epilog's, Trotecs, Universals, etc, all being sold every day, so whatever they are doing must be working well for them.

[Jerome Stanek]

what gets me is that one person may get one price from a dealer and the next person that goes there gets a different price for the same unit. If they were posted everyone would know what they are going to pay.

[Keith Winter]

Haha Bert you DID say you'd call, but you also said you could compare options by looking at a window sticker, and you ALSO said you would not call. I also agreed with you on part of your post. I read your post...


"Oh you want air tac on, you want pwr windows tac on you want blue instead of white If I went to a car dealer and saw no prices on the window off to the next dealer I go. Same with a laser. "

But did you read mine? My point is all the options on lasers are not the same, even if they appear similar on paper. Most are very similar on US machines yes, but they also have differences you need a saleperson to explain or demo to you to fully understand.

[Keith Winter]

what gets me is that one person may get one price from a dealer and the next person that goes there gets a different price for the same unit. If they were posted everyone would know what they are going to pay.

Called America. Land of opportunity. Same with people who post the prices of their lasers, I bet there is some wiggle room. Same with China. If 10 of us priced china I bet they price would vary somewhat for each of us. I'm sure some of the folks on here with multiple Chinese machines would get a lot better price than you or I because they have a lot more experience and do more business with the companies over there, they also know what to ask for, and what not to ask for. Every company everywhere does this. Amazon does this in real time even on $3 markers and paper, try putting 5 things in your shopping cart, write down the prices, and check again in 3 days. I bet they are all different prices.

[Art Mann]

Personally I would never buy anything that I can't research online price. If a company can't put a sticker price online to a product they sell then I consider them sleazy. There has to be a starting place to give a potential buyer an idea what he's looking at for price. Sure I understand if a products made in New York its going to cost more in California, but lots of companies post price's ( Staring At $ ) and then go from there. I can't see why laser companies are so secretive to potential buyers. Hey a Basic trotec starts at $$$$ and then Location add on s ECT go up. Is it so hard to do. I don't want to call or email a dozen companies answer a hundred questions from each then wait a week to get a price on a machine.All the Chinese companies and all the American companies selling imports list a basic price for their machines. Then its up to the buyer to to get his accessories and shipping and the negotiate a better price if he can. But the big 3 are like oooo we can't [post a price you have to call and answer questions before we can give you a price that's malarkey I know it, they know it and you know it.

I agree with you 100%. Several months ago, I contacted a distributor of Epilog lasers around Nashville and asked for pricing over the phone. They said they couldn't do that (even though Epilog advertising said they would) but agreed to send me a quote in the mail after the interrogation session. The quote was complex and, I think, deliberately confusing to keep me from using it for comparison shopping. Their tactics discouraged me from buying an Epilog at any price. I would rather buy a Chinese machine from an up front company than deal with them.

I don't buy cars on the dealership's terms either. I do my homework and determine what I think is a fair price for a vehicle ahead of time. I will ask the salesman to quote me the best price he can for a particular model on that particular day. I tell him that I don't negotiate and that I will either write him a check right then and there or I will drive away and buy elsewhere. Sometimes, I get a lower price than what I was expecting to pay. It is just hilarious when the salesman continues to try to negotiate with me while I am walking across the parking lot to leave. After doing that for several years, I have trained a few long term salesmen that I mean what I say.

[Jerome Stanek]

hey could put MSRP on it to start with and price the extras also

[Ernie Balch]

I have contacted all three of the major vendors over the past 4 years. One of them jacked the price up twice on successive calls. Another vendor never did give me a quote after seeing me at the show and me trying to follow up afterwards.

[Keith Winter]

I have contacted all three of the major vendors over the past 4 years. One of them jacked the price up twice on successive calls. Another vendor never did give me a quote after seeing me at the show and me trying to follow up afterwards.

That's just bad business what they did to you Ernie. I don't blame you for walking away, I hate it when a salesperson is flaky on pricing. I bet if you contacted their supervisor they would make things right and that salesperson would be in hot water.

[Bob A Miller]

Ron

Drop me an email. I think I can help you a bit on this one, having gone through it last year. I can also speak re the BC Trotec office etc & something re the show pricing up here & possibly how to make it work for you a bit better.

Bob

[Bill George]

That's just bad business what they did to you Ernie. I don't blame you for walking away, I hate it when a salesperson is flaky on pricing. I bet if you contacted their supervisor they would make things right and that salesperson would be in hot water.
Should not need to do that. If a business is selling at certain mark up you'd think it would be the same for all buyers. Unless people can discuss pricing, what have you got? A lot of BS where you can't comparison shop with brochures and price lists up front. Those of us that are a little older can remember when buying a car was like trying to get a price on a laser. Has that market place changed??? Now you can compare features online and even purchase online. The dealerships get paid for the warranty work and the sales person gets a fixed commission, not some mysterious backroom deal where one buyer gets one price the next get another.

[Scott Shepherd]

I think what many do not realize is that lasers are not sold by the factories, they are sold by distributors. The distributors are people like Roy and Jeanette Brewer. There are dozens of them across the country (world). The manufacturers sell to the distributors and the distributors set the final price. A distributor in CA is probably going to be higher than one in North Carolina. If a manufacturer put pricing up, then it wouldn't be fair to some people in the market. If they posted the CA prices, then the people in NC would look at it and say "Wow, that's too high for my budget", if they put the NC price, then the distribute in CA would say "Why bother selling, since I make so little?".

Then you have the issue on support and the time it takes to close the sale. Are sales people supposed to work for free? There's a big difference in selling to someone that calls and says "I'll take another one of the same model you sold me last year" and the "We're looking, but we're new to this all". Which one's going to burn hours of your time? Should you not be compensated for that?

I know years ago, Universal sold through distributors and I had discussions with our rep about it all. He made decent money. Then they started selling direct and allowing people to sell across districts and setting the pricing. My distributor told me that he used to make $3000-5000 per sale, and with the new rules, he made about $500. He added up the time it took for him to talk to the customer, send them the quote, demo the machine on site, follow up, then if sold, install the machine, and train them. He said he was actually working for less than minimum wage.

He left the business.

While it's great to throw out perfect world situations, just remember, when you say "Epilog", there are distributors between you and them and those are people like Roy and Jeanette, who have to make a living too.

[Bill George]

When a Salesman is making 10 -20% commission and it takes two weeks to get a price to a customer, what's wrong with this picture?

[Bert Kemp]

I do the exact same thing, when I bought my last bike in April I found the bike I wanted on line I researched came up with a fair price i'd pay for that bike and went to dealer told him the bike I wanted and heres my offer take it or leave it, oh no we can't do that but I said no buts I'm off to next dealer, wait wait let me ask my boss, boss countered I said see ya, wait wait ok maybe we can do it for that and I got it for my offer.



I agree with you 100%. Several months ago, I contacted a distributor of Epilog lasers around Nashville and asked for pricing over the phone. They said they couldn't do that (even though Epilog advertising said they would) but agreed to send me a quote in the mail after the interrogation session. The quote was complex and, I think, deliberately confusing to keep me from using it for comparison shopping. Their tactics discouraged me from buying an Epilog at any price. I would rather buy a Chinese machine from an up front company than deal with them.

I don't buy cars on the dealership's terms either. I do my homework and determine what I think is a fair price for a vehicle ahead of time. I will ask the salesman to quote me the best price he can for a particular model on that particular day. I tell him that I don't negotiate and that I will either write him a check right then and there or I will drive away and buy elsewhere. Sometimes, I get a lower price than what I was expecting to pay. It is just hilarious when the salesman continues to try to negotiate with me while I am walking across the parking lot to leave. After doing that for several years, I have trained a few long term salesmen that I mean what I say.

[Kev Williams]

I don't like talking on the phone. My kids think I don't like 'em because I never call 'em... ;)

My hearing's bad. Phones these days suck. Listening to most cell phones is a combination of distortion, broken background noise, UNbroken background noise, metal barrel echo, various underwater sounds and 'muffled-with-a-pillow' noise. Can't understand what anyone says. And that's people with an American accent.

So for that, and various other reasons, I'm with the "I like to know what something costs THEN I'll talk" crowd. While it's a fact that some people simply go for the lowest price, it's also just as likely that as many people look for the higher prices because they associate it with higher quality. Or their need to keep up with the Joneses.

Couple of months ago I was looking for a bigger seat for our Chaparral so the wife & 2 dogs could sit up front instead of in back while cruising. I searched many a website looking for the right seat and hardware to mount it. Quite a few sites didn't list prices. Those businesses will never see a dime from me. I don't care their reasons for not listing prices. I don't have time to "request a quote" (that never happens when I do, or is followed by endless spam email) or make a phone call I don't want to make in the first place.

I can't always have my way, but when I can, I will... :)