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Jason Lester
07-09-2015, 9:56 PM
I'm working on a new bench and trying to get prepared to flatten the top when done. I could do the router sled, but like the hand plane option better. I have two older hand planes that I've never been able to get working correctly. After reading up on them, I think they are both just crappy planes.

The first one I have is a Shelton No 9. I inherited it from someone. The consensus online seems to be that they were not made very well. This one is in pretty rough shape too, so maybe not worth fooling with any longer?

The second one is a Stanley #5 that I purchased new around 1990 from a hardware store. It has the plastic handles, so I think that makes it the "Handyman" model? It says Made in England, which I think means it is one of the bad ones? I remember getting frustrated with it back then and finally putting it up without ever getting a decent shaving with it. I know I have the blade razor sharp, the mouth set correctly, the chipbreaker barely off the edge, but I still can't get it to plane smoothly. I go from getting no shavings at all to skipping by just barely projecting the blade. Is this one worth continuing to try and tune up?

Assuming neither of those are good options (and new Veritas or LN models being too expensive), should I just pick a decent looking Stanley Bailey #5 off eBay? Looks like they go for $50-75 in decent condition. The Bedrocks go for about double that, are they worth the difference for a "working" plane versus one to display?

Dave Parkis
07-09-2015, 10:14 PM
IMO, I'd put a WTB (Want to Buy) post in the classified section here. $75 seems like a lot for a #5 unless its pristeen. There are several people here that sell "rehabbed" hand tools (me included) and you'd be pretty much guaranteed that the plane would be ready to work when you receive it. By "ready to work", I mean cleaned and sharpened and checked over to make sure everything works properly. I expect you could get a decent plane for $30-$50 plus shipping. Some guys (like me) take planes apart to ship to try to make sure they don't get damaged in transit, so you'd have to put the knob and tote back on and set the frog up to your liking, but that should be about it. For a number 5, I would not expect the sole to be flat to NASA tolerances, but it shold be flat enough. That said, are you sure you want a 5 to flatten the bench top? If its already pretty flat, maybe you want a jointer (7 or 8).

David M Anderson
07-09-2015, 10:47 PM
Both of the planes you mentioned, would not be one of my choices on a working plane.

The Shelton if it looks like a Stanley knock off, can be fine tuned as well as the Stanley plane, and be made into a good user.
I might get flack on this, the newer Stanley hand planes from England are as good if not better than the new ones made here.

Now to get to the point, do not know how bad of a shape the planes are and how much time you want to invest.
To me, I love to work on them and give an old tool a new life.
And what better way to learn how to fine tune, then on a old hand plane.
Better on a not so good hand plane than a more expensive one.

Some pics would be nice.

Some vintage planes other than Stanley and should be considered.
Miller Falls
Sargent
Union
And there are some nice Record hand planes out there, also.

Edit:
As Dave posted, maybe a #7 or a #8 would help you, I like a #6 plane.
Often under rated and can be found cheaper than a #5 on the Bay.

Allan Speers
07-09-2015, 11:52 PM
Jason,


While neither plane you own is much of a prize, and also not the best size for the task at hand, you should be having the dismal results you report.

My guess is that you haven't yet learned to sharpen your blades correctly. There is no huge design flaw in a Shelton #9 that prevent it from making thin & light curlies. - And the same goes for a Stanley Handyman. They're plane Janes, and they are a bit harder to adjust than, say, a nice Bedrock or Lie Nielsen, but lots of folks made fine furniture with them.

------

As for flattening a top, you're going to want something longer to do most of the work. This is NOT essential, but it does save time. - Just remember that the tool still doesn't flatten your top for you. Your most important tools are your eyes and brain. Also, amke sure to make or buy winding stick, otherwise your top could end up flat, but not level. (Twisted.)

Jim Koepke
07-10-2015, 2:26 AM
Howdy Jason and welcome to the Creek. Your location doesn't show in your profile. You may be close to another member who would be willing to look at your planes to see if you may have missed something.

If you live in the Portland, Oregon area I would be happy to look at your planes and see if they can be coaxed into smooth shaving.

My biggest leap in plane set up came when a plane bought on ebay came to me able to take shavings of less than 0.001". It was like an eye opening moment of realization.

I have had some Stanley planes from after WW II that just didn't want to work right no matter what.

It really helps to have a chance to see what a plane can do to get into tuning up a plane to do what is possible. If you possibly can get to a tools show or to someone's shop to use a well set up plane, it can make a lot of difference in your progress with using planes.

jtk

steven c newman
07-10-2015, 10:50 AM
too far to drive down there to where you are at.

So. I rehab a lot of old planes, usually ones people gave up on, and let rust. Biggest things I have found is that one, the blade was installed with the bevel up, and the chipbreaker sitting on the bevel, easy fix. next, iron was bent, another easy fix. Next, chipbreaker had a gap between it and the iron, even after the iron was fixed. Sand, grind, or stone a back bevel until the chipbreaker sits on the back of the iron without any gaps. Wood will catch in these gaps, and clog up the works. Looking for a nice straight "knife edge" where it meets the iron.

For some reason, people seem to move the frog as far forward as they can. Wood has no way to come up out of the plane that way. No matter how shallow or deep the setting. I take a skinny straight edge, like a file. I lay it on the frog's face, and adjust the frog until it is "coplanar" with the little "ramp" cast into the base casting. Looking for no gaps there. Once that happens, torque the bolts holding the frog in place as tight as you can. While you are placing the frog in place, make sure it sit without any rocking around. Clean the area under the frog, of paint, and dirt. Even a small speck under the frog can cause problems. You want a nice clean base to set the frog on.

I have had a Stanley Handyman 1205, jack plane. I actually rehabbed it enough that it would work just fine as a jack plane. See-through shavings? Why? That is for a smooth plane to produce. Currently have a type 5, Sargent #414. Almost as old as the planes youhave

317081
It needed a bit of work when it showed up, I think it might do, for now...

Prashun Patel
07-10-2015, 11:36 AM
"a decent looking Stanley Bailey #5 off eBay"

Buying on ebay has some risk in it. For my money, I'd buy from one of the reputable rehabbers around here - even if it means you pay a little more.

Also, for flattening a bench, I'd think you'd want a jointer plane in addition to the jack.

Jason Lester
07-10-2015, 12:41 PM
Thanks for all the help guys. After gluing up the next section for my bench this morning, I started back on the two planes.

I still can't get the Stanley working right. Just a very small turn takes it from no shavings to digging into the board. I really can't figure it out. Here's a photo of it:

317087

You can see the plastic handles, plastic adjusting wheel, and no fine adjustment for the frog.

The Shelton was missing one of the frog screws, but I robbed one from the Stanley temporarily and moved the blade from the Stanley over to it. After spending a few minutes adjusting it, I am successfully getting decent shavings from it now. Here's a better photo of the Shelton:

317088

I'm going to hit a couple of local antique stores this weekend to look for a decent Stanley or similar. If not, I'll check with a couple of people on here about getting one. Thanks again for the help!

Archie England
07-10-2015, 12:51 PM
"a decent looking Stanley Bailey #5 off eBay"

Buying on ebay has some risk in it. For my money, I'd buy from one of the reputable rehabbers around here - even if it means you pay a little more.

Also, for flattening a bench, I'd think you'd want a jointer plane in addition to the jack.

I wholeheartedly agree! Great counsel!!!

Oh, and from personal experience of rehabbing several Handyman planes, they really DON'T work as well, being much more finicky to tune to a fine shaving. I'm not a machinist, though; maybe that's what it takes.

Derek Cohen
07-10-2015, 12:55 PM
The symptoms of the Stanley sound like there is a hollow around the mouth.

I suspect that the blade has to project further to cut when in the middle of the board. Consequently, if the plane is set to cut at the start of the board, it will not cut in the middle of the board, and if it is set to cut at the middle, it will cut too deeply at the start.

If so, you need to flatten the sole.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Prashun Patel
07-10-2015, 1:00 PM
How's your blade and how confident are you of your sharpening skills?

Archie England
07-10-2015, 1:33 PM
The symptoms of the Stanley sound like there is a hollow around the mouth.

I suspect that the blade has to project further to cut when in the middle of the board. Consequently, if the plane is set to cut at the start of the board, it will not cut in the middle of the board, and if it is set to cut at the middle, it will cut too deeply at the start.

If so, you need to flatten the sole.

Regards from Perth

Derek

If I may expand on this....

Take a known flat surface (e.g., 24" ruler or level) and lay it on the sole of the plane. See how much light can be seen between the straight edge and the plane sole. If you see a gap in front of the plane's mouth, then Derek's on the money. If the plane is nearly perfect, then perhaps you should a) move your frog up 1/32 or b) move your chipbreaker to within 1/32 of the edge of the blade or c) make sure that the chipbreaker and blade mate perfectly 100% all along the edge. Do make sure that the blade is very sharp!!!!!! Dull blades tend to grab, skate, skitter, or dig in way too far. One other issue could be some grit or rubble trapped between the frog and the base. This could be heavy paint, grime, machining imperfections, etc. Carefully remove any such intrusions from that area between the plane base upon which the frog bottom must mate. Finally, a sharp blade can forgive more than a dull one, so do sharpen well. Make sure when extending the blade that you turn the plane over and sight down the sole to protrude the blade through the mouth. Our eyes are amazing gifts to perceive even slight variations. Never move your fingers into the blade!!!!!!

Keep sending more pics.

Warren Mickley
07-10-2015, 3:40 PM
I still can't get the Stanley working right. Just a very small turn takes it from no shavings to digging into the board. I really can't figure it out. Here's a photo of it:


Here's a better photo of the Shelton:

317088



I think you can get better results with these two planes. The iron in your second picture appears to be installed upside down. These are bevel down planes. A Stanley Handyman can certainly be made to do professional hand tool work. Some people have a poor idea of "Just a small turn"; try turning the adjustment wheel in 15 degree increments.

Andrew Pitonyak
07-10-2015, 3:49 PM
For some reason, people seem to move the frog as far forward as they can. Wood has no way to come up out of the plane that way. No matter how shallow or deep the setting. I take a skinny straight edge, like a file. I lay it on the frog's face, and adjust the frog until it is "coplanar" with the little "ramp" cast into the base casting. Looking for no gaps there. Once that happens, torque the bolts holding the frog in place as tight as you can. While you are placing the frog in place, make sure it sit without any rocking around. Clean the area under the frog, of paint, and dirt. Even a small speck under the frog can cause problems. You want a nice clean base to set the frog on.

Thanks for the tip.... I had this awesome (very old) #8 and I gave it to a close family friend. I then obtained a replacement on ebay and have never been really happy with it. I mean it works, but not as nicely as the other. I will check this on my #8 franken plane.

Dennis Ryan
07-10-2015, 6:19 PM
I disagree with buying a jointer for this task. The OP does not have a usable plane. If it were me, the first plane I buy would be a 4 or 5. I also would not advise rehabbing your existing planes. They sound like they are in terrible shape, and if I wasn't confident in my ability to use a hand plane, the experience would just frustrate the heck out of me.

Dennis

Warren Mickley
07-10-2015, 6:42 PM
I disagree with buying a jointer for this task. The OP does not have a usable plane. If it were me, the first plane I buy would be a 4 or 5. I also would not advise rehabbing your existing planes. They sound like they are in terrible shape, and if I wasn't confident in my ability to use a hand plane, the experience would just frustrate the heck out of me.

Dennis

The existing planes would work a lot better if the guy could learn to put the iron in with the bevel down. Buying new planes would not solve that problem. I don't see how one can pronounce these planes unusable.

Jason Lester
07-10-2015, 7:00 PM
The existing planes would work a lot better if the guy could learn to put the iron in with the bevel down. Buying new planes would not solve that problem. I don't see how one can pronounce these planes unusable.

It's definitely bevel down, must be a trick in the way the light is hitting it to make you think it isn't.

steven c newman
07-10-2015, 7:34 PM
Very simple...because they don't have either an L-N or a Veritas name plate on the OP's planes.....

80% of all the planes I rehab, came from FeeBay. Some were in even worse shape than the OP's are. They can be tuned up, even make decent shavings.

steven c newman
07-10-2015, 8:37 PM
Ok,ok,...here is the deal:

Send the planes to me, with return postage. I will refurb them both up to working condition, and blog about how I do it. Your cost, other than the round trip postage? ZERO DOLLARS. PM if interested. Goes for anyone else having plane troubles....

Archie England
07-10-2015, 11:34 PM
Ok,ok,...here is the deal:

Send the planes to me, with return postage. I will refurb them both up to working condition, and blog about how I do it. Your cost, other than the round trip postage? ZERO DOLLARS. PM if interested. Goes for anyone else having plane troubles....

NOW, THAT'S A TREMENDOUS DEAL!!!
First class act. My hat's off to you.

Stu Gillard
07-11-2015, 2:15 AM
Ok,ok,...here is the deal:

Send the planes to me, with return postage. I will refurb them both up to working condition, and blog about how I do it. Your cost, other than the round trip postage? ZERO DOLLARS. PM if interested. Goes for anyone else having plane troubles....

Thumbs up Steven

steven c newman
07-11-2015, 4:24 PM
called paying it forward. Things I have learned the hard way over the last few years, I can pass things along to the next person in line. Hopefully learning this sort of craft will be a bit easier for them...

Usually, I can complete a refurb in about a day, two at the most, depending on how much is needed. Most are less than a day to complete.

Jason Lester
07-11-2015, 4:37 PM
I think I made our pretty good today on a couple of Stanley's. I got a Type 16 #5 and a Type 9 #7C for $61 (both). They both need new blades and maybe new totes, but decent shape otherwise. I'm going to work through some of the guides on getting them back in good shape and maybe save up to get a nice new smoother from either LV or LN. Thanks again for all the help.

Frederick Skelly
07-11-2015, 5:24 PM
Ok,ok,...here is the deal:

Send the planes to me, with return postage. I will refurb them both up to working condition, and blog about how I do it. Your cost, other than the round trip postage? ZERO DOLLARS. PM if interested. Goes for anyone else having plane troubles....

Jason, you ought to take Steven up on his offer. You won't find a better or more generous deal out there.
Fred

David M Anderson
07-11-2015, 6:16 PM
Sounds like you made out great...
Watch out now though...once you have rehabbed one...down the slope you go...:)

steven c newman
07-11-2015, 10:28 PM
Have had a Handyman #1205 come through the shop a while back....
317167
Cleaned up nicely, in fact.
317168
Not too bad at all. All it takes is a wee bit of time, and elbow grease...
317170
Not too bad....even had a full set of these planes...
317171
Plus a block plane or two. For what they were designed for, they do work.

The Shelton the OP has is a bit like the Stanley Victor brand
317172
Yep, they can do a job......

Jason Lester
07-12-2015, 1:23 PM
Sounds like you made out great...
Watch out now though...once you have rehabbed one...down the slope you go...:)

I moved the blade/chipbreaker over from my newer Stanley, adjusted the throat and depth, and had shavings flying. It is amazing how much difference there is between the two models. I opened the throat and used it to smooth out some roughsawn ash, then closed it up and got the really thin shavings. That is without any other adjustments or cleanup at all.

Allan Speers
07-12-2015, 2:36 PM
I moved the blade/chipbreaker over from my newer Stanley, adjusted the throat and depth, and had shavings flying......


Which once again infers that the original blade is probably not sharp enough. - Or you need to flatten the mating surfaces between the chipbreaker and the blade.

Jason Lester
07-12-2015, 3:43 PM
Which once again infers that the original blade is probably not sharp enough. - Or you need to flatten the mating surfaces between the chipbreaker and the blade.

That's the same blade combo that doesn't work right in the newer #5 though. I just moved it over to the older one, with no adjustments at all.

steven c newman
07-15-2015, 2:08 PM
So, did the reverse happen with the other set? Have you tried a straight edge along the length of the sole?

One other trick....take a square, set the edge along the side of the iron. Check to see how straight the edge is, and if it is square to the sides of the iron. I have had a few irons come through the shop with a "wave effect" ~ on the edge, others..the corners stuck out more than the middle, almost a reverse camber effect. Sometimes a blade just wears funny, depending on what the owner was doing with it.

Don't let others talk you into buying a brand new THICKER aftermarket iron. They will say how it will cure chatter.....NOT. It merely covers up the fact the plane was tuned up badly. properly tuned up, the iron that was designed to fit the plane is plenty good to use.

IF you have any other "issues" with the planes, feel free to ask a question around these parts. ps: and take a LOT of photos! They LIKE lots of photos around here....

Steve H Graham
07-15-2015, 3:49 PM
Send me your troublesome planes, and I will keep them. You can't beat that deal.

I know absolutely nothing about planes, but I like the idea of trying to get them to work. I found a really crappy Stanley #4 in my garage, and after I did what I was told to do, it worked like a dream. It's probably a 1980s plane; maybe 1970s. I have two Type 11s that are much nicer, but this thing works just as well.

If you already bought new ones, now you can use them while you fix the old ones. Then you'll have two extra planes on hand, which can't be a bad thing. Someone advised me to turn the #4 into a scrub plane if I couldn't get it to work as a smooth plane.

Jason Lester
07-15-2015, 9:24 PM
Made some excellent progress over the last few days. I took both "antique" planes apart, cleaned everything up, glued both broken totes, and put them back together. I guess I cheated a little since I ordered blades/cap irons from Veritas for both. The #7 didn't have either and the #5 was completely worn out (see photo below).

Here's the #7 after a few adjustments:

317444

Those shavings are .002. I didn't lap the sole, but did hit it with some 120 sandpaper on a flat surface just to smooth out some of the rust. It appears that the nose and tail both curve up slightly, you can tell by the heavier rust on the ends:

317445

The #5 was in better shape overall. It is also taking nice shavings:

317447

Sole is in better shape too, it isn't actually shinier on the ends, just the reflection:

317448

This is the iron that was in the #5:

317449

It was well used at least!

Finally, I turned my attention back to the late model Stanley #5 that I purchased new in the 80s. After seeing how the older ones went together and work, I was able to get this one going now too:

317450

Those are .004, but took much longer and more frustrating to setup. Here's what I think the problems are (partially at least). There's no way to really get the frog in the same plane as the mouth. The mouth isn't beveled at all either. This picture has the frog lined up with the back edge of the mouth, but there is a sizable gap between the sole and the bottom edge of the frog. I put the white paper under it to try and make it more obvious:

317451

Here's what the area of the sole where the frog rides and the bottom of the frog look like:

317452

It's really just a much more inferior design. Nothing is machined flat, everything is powder-coated (I think). It is just really tough to get set correctly. Also, there are 5-6 full turns of backlash in the depth adjustment. Even after you take up the backlash, it is not smooth at all when adjusting the depth.

In short, the earlier ones are just made much better in my opinion. Without seeing how a good one is supposed to work, I would have continued to struggle in getting the newer one working.

I took my bench legs out of the clamps tonight and starting cleaning up the glue joints. I normally scrape with a chisel and then sand, sand, and sand some more. This time though, I scraped with the chisel, hit it with the #5, then the #7 and was done. I did all four legs in probably half the time it would take for one with my usual routine. I also learned why everyone wants heavy, sturdy benches. My Jawhorse seen in the pictures was moving all over the place on me!

steven c newman
07-15-2015, 9:35 PM
re: That English made Cordovan coloured #5. One COULD beltsand the mating areas on the frog until no more paint is on them. Try the frog with the bolts centered in the slots as a "starting point". See IF the frog rocks a bit. A wire cup(Brass) in the drill or drill press will remove the paint on the base where the frog sits. Finally, one could add a 8" radius edge to the iron, and call it a scrub plane. Or, just a normal JACK plane.

Glad you got them working better...

Archie England
07-16-2015, 8:30 AM
Or, soak the frog and plane in a strong paint thinner/remover, then wire brush the residue off. BUT, there's little guarantee that the parts are square nor that you could achieve square by hand (or keep it). The idea of belt sanding is great; but, IMO it takes an experienced hand not to go out of square. Perhaps this is more of a personal confession, but going slow (hand files) has helped me (but not altogether stopped me) from ruining square mated parts.


I do recommend that you move the frog forward (to about 1/32 or so of the edge). The tricky part here is that a frog too far forward closes the mouth and then causes constant clogging of shavings--enough so to cause frequent stops and cleaning. The other problem can be that the less mated area of the frog to the base can allow rocking or even stress bending when in use.

Best of luck!

steven c newman
07-17-2015, 7:21 PM
Picked up a Corsair #4 the other day...

Iron was upside down, the chipbreaker was ON the iron's bevel...about normal

Was a bit rusty, no biggie

Mating areas between the frog and base had a THICK layer of paint....5 minutes to wire cup away from the base, about the same on a beltsander for the frog's two areas.

Flattened the iron, sharpened the bevel @ 25* polished up to 2K grit Wet&Dry paper.

317576
Test drive. Had to mate the chipbreaker to the now flat back of the iron. Polished the "hump" on the chipbreaker.
No gaps between the two. All bolts had been cleaned up. The rear handle's bolt needed a lot of straightening. Rear handle still needs a coat of glue..
317577
Beltsander to flatten the sole.
.317578
and added a coat of candle wax on the sole. Shavings are in the .005 range.
317579
Maybe an hour, or so of rehab work? Traded a Tricycle for this plane, and a small brace and bit
317580
This was after the wire wheels got done with it... maybe half an hour?

Doesn't take all THAT long to rehab a plane....