Griggio Unica Slider

[Peter Kelly]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HmMKyZlcMM

Interestingly, the blade isn't destroyed when the system is triggered. Saw is ready to be used again in 2 minutes.

[Larry Edgerton]

Two minute recharge? Large capacitor and a electromagnet?

Thanks, I'll have to look into that out of curiosity.

[Jim Becker]

Clearly, it would also be hard to "lose" this saw in your shop with that color! Nice to see even additional safety function on what is already a relatively "safe" saw format...which is one reason I have a slider.

[peter gagliardi]

Impressive for a large blade format saw!

[Peter Aeschliman]

finally a true slider with flesh sensing tech. Very cool!! Probably also way out of my price range!

[Phil Thien]

That is a pretty slick machine, thanks for posting.

[Rick Fisher]

Awesome technology .. Nice to see it on a slider.

[Erik Loza]

Interesting. Thanks for sharing, Peter. Wonder if that machine will be in Vegas?

Erik

[Mike Wilkins]

Nice concept, nice color, nice machine. The reason for my purchase of a sliding table saw is safety, ease of use, straight-line ripping on the slider. And I got mine long after the hot dog machine was on the market. Interesting if it will make it to the North American market.

[Peter Kelly]

Interesting. Thanks for sharing, Peter. Wonder if that machine will be in Vegas?


ErikI don't see Griggio S.p.a on the AWFS exhibitor list so I'd imagine probably not. They probably just rolled the saw out at the Ligna show and that was it.

Other than the handful of machines machine carried by Laguna and Andreou, does Griggio have any US representation at all?

[Erik Loza]

I don't see Griggio S.p.a on the AWFS exhibitor list so I'd imagine probably not. They probably just rolled the saw out at the Ligna show and that was it.

Other than the handful of machines machine carried by Laguna and Andreou, does Griggio have any US representation at all?


From the Griggio machines I have seen at IWF in the past, it was always a dealer's booth rather than Griggio itself. Perhaps Andreou? I don't remember. I'll definitely look around when I am there. They generally group the various vendors by type of machine sold, so I assume whoever might be selling something like this would be in our same hall.

Erik

[Peter Kelly]

I see that J&G Machinery has a 20x30 at the back end of the show by Door 5. Maybe there?

It should also be noted that there's an excellent taco truck that usually parks across the boneyard past the freight doors during most show days. Certainly better than the food options inside LVCC.

[Erik Loza]

Hmmmm, must investigate said taco truck....

No kidding about the food: I actually bring my own protein bars and then boost stuff like bananas from the hotel. You rarely have time to sit down and eat during the show. We do have an excellent espresso machine in SCM booth however.

Getting back to this saw, I'll ask the Italians about it. I'm sure they will know something and it's good to have other options in the market.

Erik

[Erik Loza]

Watching the video again, I am really curious about how they did this. Pneumatics, I assume? The machine apparently calls for 6 BAR of pressure, which is not something you normally need for a sliding table saw. If you look at the cabinet, it has this bulging profile, which I am assuming is to accomodate the drop if the blade is tilted to 45 degrees.

Listen to the sound of it in this video...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2HbaLDjmEE

Sounds like a pneumatic solenoid when it triggers. Still terrifies me to watch someone place their hands that close to the blade, tho'...

Erik

[Bob Varney]

Wonder if this is some of bosch airbag tech?

[Phil Thien]

Watching the video again, I am really curious about how they did this. Pneumatics, I assume? The machine apparently calls for 6 BAR of pressure, which is not something you normally need for a sliding table saw. If you look at the cabinet, it has this bulging profile, which I am assuming is to accomodate the drop if the blade is tilted to 45 degrees.

Listen to the sound of it in this video...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2HbaLDjmEE

Sounds like a pneumatic solenoid when it triggers. Still terrifies me to watch someone place their hands that close to the blade, tho'...

Erik

Good point. And also, why are they using a hot dog and not pancetta?

[Peter Kelly]

*salsiccia

[guy knight]

will have to try the tacos this year

[ian maybury]

It's not too surprising that somebody has finally decided to come up with a more realistic/elegant safety technology - it can't be rocket science. Maybe it's only us amateur punters that are thought ready to pay every time a safety device fires?

Judging by this story the SS people are involved in it too: http://www.fdmcdigital.com/ArticleDetails/tabid/162/ArticleID/95172/Default.aspx

If it's pneumatic there's possibly an accumulator maintained at pressure with a very short connection to a cylinder - with maybe a pilot operated big bore valve of some sort triggered by a small sensor and electronics operated pilot valve?

Wonder does it seek to brake the blade as well as retract it? Wonder if it maintains it's alignment over repeated firings? Should be feasible. (cushion the stop) Wonder too if it's patentable? Mechanical device inventions tend to be hard to protect in this way.

Guessing that the need to build it into a saw design almost from scratch is one of the bigger barriers to entry, but might it be the beginning of a generally applicable/industry wide safety device?

[Peter Kelly]

will have to try the tacos this yearThere's also Tacos & Beer on Paradise Road across form Del Frisco's and Gordon Biersch. About a 5 min drive from LVCC. http://tacosandbeerlv.com

Worth checking out post-show.

[Chris Parks]

I think SS would be starting to become concerned now what with Bosch and now this as well so they are electing to get on the bandwagon with another manufacturer and that was never going to be with Bosch.

[johnny means]

For all the vitriol armed at Steve Gasse and Sawstop, their actions seem to be the catalyst for a long overdue revolution in shop safety.

[Chris Parks]

For all the vitriol armed at Steve Gasse and Sawstop, their actions seem to be the catalyst for a long overdue revolution in shop safety.

It usually is the case with stuff like this, the pioneers cop the criticism and flak.

[ian maybury]

Not criticism, more that there's a a pretty standard (mass market) product life cycle that tends to play out in a particular way. Viewed from a generalised R&D management perspective being a pioneer is typically a high risk undertaking - they get the benefit of a wide open market, but one that's populated by buyers they have to spend to educate. Which means that (a) many will not see the need, (b) many will hold back to see where it goes, and (c) a few early adopters (those of that psychology) will tend to buy. It's unusual for the pioneering variants of a technology to survive longer term, something significantly better (developed with the benefit of improved technology, for larger volume markets, and in the light lots of user experience) tends to pretty quickly appear and sweep the original away. Inventors/pioneers tend to again to be of a particular mindset that leads them to do what they do....

For sure in this case the market has been opened up - but (and its easy to be wise after the fact) it's no great surprise that a user re-settable variant would be next up. By the model above the people that commercially do best/come to dominate a market tend to be those that come in just after the technology and the market has stabilised enough that it's not subject to radical changes in direction or petering out, but well before it's (usually after a decent period/when patents etc run out etc) progressed to the point where it's become a widely produced commodity and prices have dropped way down.

It depends after that on your business model. The inveterate pioneer/inventor will by then have long moved on to this next opportunity. Even the players that have come to dominate a market may sell the business on to others more specialised in low cost production, or more likely will seek to maintain it by introducing improved variants of the product. Until such time as something happens to change the whole ball game, usually an external event like competition from a low cost economy, a competing alternative method that uses very different approach, or a shift in markets or whatever.

:) Wonder when we'll develop something to replace the most highly optimised finger removal and dust distribution device there is completely - the saw blade...

[Erik Loza]

...Wonder does it seek to brake the blade as well as retract it? Wonder if it maintains it's alignment over repeated firings? Should be feasible. (cushion the stop) Wonder too if it's patentable? Mechanical device inventions tend to be hard to protect in this way....

In that second video, I can clearly hear the blade spinning down, albeit much shorter than normal, so I assume there is some type of magnetic or DC brake at work. Also, this is my question: Why is Griggio doing this? Not a knock against them (they make fine machinery) but they aren't a major player when it comes to slider mfg. Europe doesn't (to the best of my knowledge) have any safety requirements along these lines so this is an interesting play by Griggio to invest this much into such a platform. I'm definitely going to ask the Italians about this next week.

Erik

[Jordan Lane]

http://www.fdmcdigital.com/ArticleDetails/tabid/162/ArticleID/95172/Default.aspx

[Frank Martin]

In that second video, I can clearly hear the blade spinning down, albeit much shorter than normal, so I assume there is some type of magnetic or DC brake at work. Also, this is my question: Why is Griggio doing this? Not a knock against them (they make fine machinery) but they aren't a major player when it comes to slider mfg. Europe doesn't (to the best of my knowledge) have any safety requirements along these lines so this is an interesting play by Griggio to invest this much into such a platform. I'm definitely going to ask the Italians about this next week.

Erik

Erik, why not? I personally think it is great that a major slider manufacturer is investing in this technology. This is the type of machine I would be very interested in purchasing, although needs to come on a CU300 or CU410 type of combo. Accidents can and do happen, technology to save is always welcome.

[Wayne Fuder]

Last year at IWF one of the reps at the Martin display made the comment and hinted that they were working on a SS type of system and that it would not ruin a blade when it tripped. I can see someone like Martin picking up and improving on existing technology.

[David Kumm]

It will be very interesting to see how the system works mechanically. To retract and stop a 14-16" blade is a whole different deal than the 10" max used until now. The stress on the arbor assembly and bearings must be much higher. Seeing how the build is beefed up to deal with that stress interests me more than the politics of the discussion. Dave

[Ken Fitzgerald]

This thread will not be allowed to evolve into a SS/anti-SS discussion.

[Erik Loza]

Erik, why not? I personally think it is great that a major slider manufacturer is investing in this technology. This is the type of machine I would be very interested in purchasing, although needs to come on a CU300 or CU410 type of combo. Accidents can and do happen, technology to save is always welcome.

Frank, would you be willing to pay another $4K-$5K to have this feature on your combo machine? Everything is possible but will the consumer pay for it? That's the real question.

Erik

[Frank Martin]

Frank, would you be willing to pay another $4K-$5K to have this feature on your combo machine? Everything is possible but will the consumer pay for it? That's the real question.

Erik

I certainly would if it had the same functionality on all 5 functions. Just for the saw, probably another $2-$3k or so.

[John Lankers]

I promise no SS bashing :D.
Here is a link to a website that explains how they pulled it off http://www.fdmcdigital.com/ArticleDetails/tabid/162/ArticleID/95172/Default.aspx

[Erik Loza]

It will be very interesting to see how the system works mechanically. To retract and stop a 14-16" blade is a whole different deal than the 10" max used until now. The stress on the arbor assembly and bearings must be much higher. Seeing how the build is beefed up to deal with that stress interests me more than the politics of the discussion. Dave

Out of curiosity, I went to Griggio's homepage to read about it, hoping they might discuss the saw unit. Huge surprise: Nothing. Probably all hush-hush and patented. I did notice one curious thing though: This machine has a small motor for its class: Only 7.5hp. Every other 16" slider starts at 9hp, including Griggio's the other big sliders in Griggio's lineup. Perhaps they have to downsize the motor in order to fit the whole mechanism inside the cabinet?

Erik

[Rick Fisher]

Griggio and Martin do business together. I wonder if they will both share this technology ?

To me, this is a game changer. Sliding table saws are very often run by employees and employers have to make employees as safe as reasonably possible. $4K for this technology on a 4 year lease .. is $100 a month.

[Erik Loza]

...Here is a link to a website that explains how they pulled it off http://www.fdmcdigital.com/ArticleDetails/tabid/162/ArticleID/95172/Default.aspx

Thanks for sharing that link. Something strikes me as funny, though. The statement talleges that there are "19 accidents a day" on panel saws in Germany. OK, let's run with that. If we are to take that statement at face value, that 19 operators are injured by sawblades a day (since that is the technology in question, right?). Factoring out eight weeks for Holidays during August and then other holidays like Christmas and so on, we can roughly say that a German cabinet maker works 10 months a year. 10 months divided by a 5-day work week = 200 work days.

200 work days X "19 injuries per day" = 3,800 injuries in German mill shops that result in injury to the hand.

3,800????

Now, I'm not certainly not going to accuse anyone of exaggerting or of twisting statistics but will say this: I have sold hundreds of sliding panel saws over the last ten years and guess how many owners I am personally aware of who have lost a finger? None. Furthermore, I do tend to hear about if someone gets hurt on an SCMi slider and honestly, can't tell you the last time that happened. I'm not saying that I know it all but sliders are pretty darn safe as they are and also, think about why somebody wants to sell you something. Just my 2-cents as always.

Erik

[John Lankers]

Thanks for sharing that link. Something strikes me as funny, though. The statement talleges that there are "19 accidents a day" on panel saws in Germany. OK, let's run with that. If we are to take that statement at face value, that 19 operators are injured by sawblades a day (since that is the technology in question, right?). Factoring out eight weeks for Holidays during August and then other holidays like Christmas and so on, we can roughly say that a German cabinet maker works 10 months a year. 10 months divided by a 5-day work week = 200 work days.

200 work days X "19 injuries per day" = 3,800 injuries in German mill shops that result in injury to the hand.

3,800????

Now, I'm not certainly not going to accuse anyone of exaggerting or of twisting statistics but will say this: I have sold hundreds of sliding panel saws over the last ten years and guess how many owners I am personally aware of who have lost a finger? None. Furthermore, I do tend to hear about if someone gets hurt on an SCMi slider and honestly, can't tell you the last time that happened. I'm not saying that I know it all but sliders are pretty darn safe as they are and also, think about why somebody wants to sell you something. Just my 2-cents as always.

Erik

Erik, according to "Berufsgenossenschaft Holz und Metall" http://www.steine-und-erden.net/se513/kreissaegen.html there are roughly 14,500 table saw related accidents per year in Germany alone.
I can't believe either that 3800 woodworkers are being injured on sliders every year given the stringent safety regulations and education programs in Germany.
I own a Felder and you know, better than I do, there is no need to stand in the line of kickback ever and with the use of holddowns or "Fritz and Franz" your hands never have to be in the danger zone - not saying accidents can't happen.

[Erik Loza]

John, that link shows a contractor-type table saw (assuming I read it right) rather than a slider. I'm not taking issue with anything or arguing with anyone, just saying that we cannot apply statistics from jobsite-level tools to true sliding table saws. There are probably 1,000X the jobsite saws in operation as their are sliding table saws. So, I wonder if any of these "X-many guys got hurt" statistics apply to sliders at all?

I think the technology is great but we also should recognize apples from oranges. Again, just my 2-cents and thanks for posting that link.

Erik

[johnny means]

Eric, I'll bet the sliders that get high usage, the ones that run all day every day, are not owned our used by the purchasers. The majority of injuries on them are just some anonymous employed schmuck. I've seen pretty much an equal number of injuries on cabinet saws and sliders throughout my career. Though it seems like the nature and circumstances are different.

[John Lankers]

I realized my post was getting way to long so I figured I had to keep it short and I deleted some, sorry.
The report says the main cause of accidents is safety equipment like blade guards removed, small workpieces not properly secured or waste removed from the proximity of the blade without proper care, so unsafe work practices in general.
Those numbers are real but they don't differentiate between jobsite saws, cabinet saws, sliders, hobby shops and commercial shops and they include all imaginable accidents including cuts on sliders.
I'm not even sure if it's possible to find statistics that only show cuts on sliders - so it might be anyones guess, who knows. I do know, since I own the slider I feel a lot safer and I can make cuts safely that I never even would have dreamed of doing on a table saw - incl. SawStop.
This set aside, what about all the other woodworking machines like shapers, jointers, drill presses, band saws and routers - are they any less dangerous?

[Erik Loza]

....Those numbers are real but they don't differentiate between jobsite saws, cabinet saws, sliders, hobby shops and commercial shops and they include all imaginable accidents including cuts on sliders.

This is my issue with using "statistics" to drive marketing, especially when your marketing strategy is (or has historically been...) fear-based marketing: "Buy our product or it's just a matter of time", etc.

I'm all in favor of new safety features but where's the data to support the claim that it's sliders that are causing all these injuries? Personally, I think your top culprits are cabinet-style table saws and handheld circular saws. I can tell you, for example, that vast majority of slider "incidents" I have either personally witnessed or know of, firsthand, and I say "incidents" rather than "accidents", because an injury does not always result from one of these "incidents", involve one of two things: Kickback or having the offcut piece jump off the table, due to the operator attempting to use the rip fence to the right of the sawblade in conjunction with the slider, as some sort of parallel-type cutting fence, which is super-sketchy. Or, leaving the sawblade guard off and having the sawblade catch the edge of the panel and spin it around while the operator is trying to hurry through cuts. Of course, both of those are common sense safety things that can be avoided but in shops, guys are in a hurry. But I don't see guys losing fingers. They may, I just think it's not the issue it is with jobsite saws. Just my 2 cents as always,

Erik

[Peter Aeschliman]

I for one really welcome the change.

Thanks to this forum, I've learned a lot about how the sliding table can be used even to perform a parallel rip cut. The Fritz and Franz jig is brilliant. So if you have a big slider with massive stroke (one big enough that you can use the sliding table for the vast majority of your rip cuts), then I suppose you wouldn't really need a blade brake.

BUT, I will say that from what I understand, it takes a bit of fiddling to get your rip cut set up on a slider (when using the slider rather than the fence).

Whereas, if you use the fence for your parallel rip just like many of us do on our North American style table saws, it's much faster... but much less safe.

So this is a big step forward for convenience in my opinion. I also think that once this trickles down to the smaller high end hobby level sliders (with which users are far more likely to use the rip fence due to the slider's limited stroke), it could be a major game changer.

Look at how much market share SS has stolen from other manufacturers in the US market. Is it hard to believe that the same could happen for these saws?

[Erik Loza]

I'm at the show right now and Griggio actually has a booth here. Well, a US dealer for them. Two regular sliders, not the "safe" one. Spoke at length with the rep. Says it will be at least a year before that slider makes it to the US and did confirm the relationship with Sawstop.

Erik

[David Kumm]

Any idea from the rep how they adapted it could handle larger blades and deal with the additional stress when slamming down and stopping? Dave

[Erik Loza]

Any idea from the rep how they adapted it could handle larger blades and deal with the additional stress when slamming down and stopping? Dave

Dave, there was some reluctance to discuss the exact specifics. Just that is "all was patented in partnership with SS". I did ask...

Erik

[Joe Calhoon]

I realized my post was getting way to long so I figured I had to keep it short and I deleted some, sorry.
The report says the main cause of accidents is safety equipment like blade guards removed, small workpieces not properly secured or waste removed from the proximity of the blade without proper care, so unsafe work practices in general.
Those numbers are real but they don't differentiate between jobsite saws, cabinet saws, sliders, hobby shops and commercial shops and they include all imaginable accidents including cuts on sliders.
I'm not even sure if it's possible to find statistics that only show cuts on sliders - so it might be anyones guess, who knows. I do know, since I own the slider I feel a lot safer and I can make cuts safely that I never even would have dreamed of doing on a table saw - incl. SawStop.
This set aside, what about all the other woodworking machines like shapers, jointers, drill presses, band saws and routers - are they any less dangerous?

I asked a friend of mine that works in woodworking machinery industry in Germany about this high rate of accidents. This is what he said. "Those accidents count all table saws, sliding table saws etc.
Even if they happen on construction sides or when cutting wood for your heat at home etc.
Since all workers in Germany are very well insured via workers compensation they will go to the doctor even if they only got a scratch.."

He went on to say on average there is one serious woodworking accident per month in Germany.

[Peter Kelly]

I'm at the show right now and Griggio actually has a booth here. Well, a US dealer for them. Two regular sliders, not the "safe" one. Spoke at length with the rep. Says it will be at least a year before that slider makes it to the US and did confirm the relationship with Sawstop. ErikWho is their US dealer? Thanx for the update btw.

[guy knight]

There's also Tacos & Beer on Paradise Road across form Del Frisco's and Gordon Biersch. About a 5 min drive from LVCC. http://tacosandbeerlv.com

Worth checking out post-show.


not sure i will have room wife has plans for bellagio buffet :D

[Joe Jensen]

Having spent a fair bit of my career as a marketing guy the 19 incidents a day is almost certainly true but also clearly misleading. Any cut or scratch could certainly count as an injury. They didn't claim amputations. Gast and Sawstop used data in a similar way. If memory serves they quoted ER visits. That would be a more meaningful data point than "injuries"?

[Erik Loza]

Peter, "United Machinery Solutions" of FL. Must confess that I had never heard of them prior to now...

https://www.importgenius.com/importers/united-machinery-solutions-inc

Erik