Best modern day substitute for 100 year old poplar

[Jim Mackell]

100 year old poplar has extremely tight growth rings. Poplar sold today doesn't. What is the best substitute for old growth poplar? I need both strength and moisture resistance. Your opinions, please.

Thanks!

[Dennis Aspö]

Old window sashes and the like here, things that are a century old and going strong are made from slow growth pine. Treated and maintained it will last longer than any modern aluminum and plastic contraptions.

[Kent A Bathurst]

100 year old poplar has extremely tight growth rings. Poplar sold today doesn't. What is the best substitute for old growth poplar? I need both strength and moisture resistance. Your opinions, please.

Thanks!

If you rummage around on-line, you can easily find old growth white oak - especially old growth QSWO. Penna is the big source for that. I have QSWO in the 150+ year-old range. I'd think WO has better moisture resistance than poplar, and definitely better strength.

You gotta pay the piper, though...........and he does not play for cheap.

May I ask what you will use it for?

If you need help with sources, just ask.

[John Schweikert]

Rot resistance from wood database:
Poplar - moderately durable to non-durable
White Oak - very durable (used for boatbuilding for a very long time for good reason)
Longleaf pine - moderately resistant to decay

So white oak would appear to be an excellent choice for strength and decay resistance. Not sure why old growth is needed though.

[Cody Colston]

100 year old poplar has extremely tight growth rings. Poplar sold today doesn't. What is the best substitute for old growth poplar? I need both strength and moisture resistance. Your opinions, please.

Thanks!

I would second the recommendation of White Oak. It is moisture resistant due to the presence of tyloses in the pores. It is also strong, much stronger than Poplar.

Note that regarding strength, faster-growth White Oak is actually stronger than slower-growth. "In ring porous hardwoods, the width of the large-pored earlywood doesn't vary much so the rate of growth is reflected in the amount of denser latewood. Therefore fast growth produces denser material." excerpted from R. Bruce Hoadley's "Understanding Wood."

[Mike Cutler]

Jim

if you just happen to be in a renovation restoration of an old New England home, and maybe doing moulding. You might be looking for Tulip Wood and not Poplar.
Tulip wood was widely used throughout New England for window and door trim.

[John Schweikert]

Tulipwood is from Brazil and is as hard as purple heart but with poor rot resistance. Tulip poplar is only moderately durable to non-durable. What other "tulip" woods are there?

[Peter Quinn]

Old growth poplar? My understanding is it has always been a utility wood, used as a secondary wood in cabinet construction, frames of couches, occasionally as barn siding where the main goal is cheep, not tough. They are selling torrified poplar for exterior use that is supposed to be fairly water and decay resistant from the cooking process. Perhaps if you explained the use other members might be able to suggest an appropriate substitute? I don't think poplar ever had a golden age as an exterior product, old growth or not.

[Mike Cutler]

Tulipwood is from Brazil and is as hard as purple heart but with poor rot resistance. Tulip poplar is only moderately durable to non-durable. What other "tulip" woods are there?

John

There were, and some still remain, a few isolated stands of Tulip wood that were native to the America's. It is sometimes erroneously called Poplar by another name, because it was termed "Yellow Poplar" at one time, but it is actually a different species of wood altogether from the trees we know today as American Poplar.
Between the farming, and the ship buildingm that went on New England for a few centuries,virtually every tree of any use was cut down.All growth is new growth.
Many non native species were brought here from Europe and the tropics. Teak for instance used to be considered "trash". it was used for dunnage and ballast for ships coming empty, along with Belgian block.

I have friends that specialize in period architectural restoration and they're still amazed at times what they find in some of the structures they work on.
The history of tree's in America is actually pretty fascinating. Well at least to me it is.

[Jim Mackell]

If you rummage around on-line, you can easily find old growth white oak - especially old growth QSWO. Penna is the big source for that. I have QSWO in the 150+ year-old range. I'd think WO has better moisture resistance than poplar, and definitely better strength.

You gotta pay the piper, though...........and he does not play for cheap.

May I ask what you will use it for?

If you need help with sources, just ask.

We are beginning the process of restoring a vintage 100 year old trolley car. The roof boards are 3/8 poplar covered with canvas. The exterior siding has a sheathing layer of 1 inch poplar on top of which is 3/4 or 7/8 wainscoting. Also made of poplar. 90% of the roof is intact but curatorial standards require that we at least try to use the same materials for repair. Not too concerned about the roofing material, no real stress encountered there. But the horizontal sheathing lends a great deal of strength and rigidity to the body. Keeps it from racking. And probably 50% or more of that needs replacement. If we weren't a museum, we'd use marine grade plywood.

Thanks for all the tips!

PS if you want to see more about this project, check out our blog at http://narcissus1912.blogspot.com (http://narcissus1912.blogspot.com/2015/07/nrhs-awards-2000-to-narcissus-project.html)

[Mel Fulks]

Jim, I have used the painted canvas treatment with good results and mentioned it before here. I told you guys it was a proven traditional method! As we add "high tech " stuff must we doubt the validity of methods used for some hundreds of years? The poplar covered with painted canvas will outlast the modern "approved " woods.

[Tom M King]

I've seen a lot of old wood, but never what you are looking for. Try: http://www.museum-resources.com/

I have no idea if they will know either, but good luck.

[Kent A Bathurst]

We are beginning the process of restoring a vintage 100 year old trolley car. The roof boards are 3/8 poplar covered with canvas. The exterior siding has a sheathing layer of 1 inch poplar on top of which is 3/4 or 7/8 wainscoting. Also made of poplar. 90% of the roof is intact but curatorial standards require that we at least try to use the same materials for repair. Not too concerned about the roofing material, no real stress encountered there. But the horizontal sheathing lends a great deal of strength and rigidity to the body. Keeps it from racking. And probably 50% or more of that needs replacement. If we weren't a museum, we'd use marine grade plywood.

Thanks for all the tips!

PS if you want to see more about this project, check out our blog at http://narcissus1912.blogspot.com (http://narcissus1912.blogspot.com/2015/07/nrhs-awards-2000-to-narcissus-project.html)

OK - Then I was right on the QSWO, at least - -Cody punked me on the strength thing. Lesson Learned. But - the dense ring OG shows much better ray fleck.......which is likely not high on the design criteria for your application. But - since the roof is under canvas, maybe you want to go for the 200 year fix with the QSWO...:p...not much movement in the QS flavor, plus dense and rot-resistant.

But - your historical accuracy seems to require poplar - at least, on the sides. Am sure it was available, and at a good price point, when the trolley car was built - wherever that was.....woulda been locally available.

OTOH - - it will be painted. So - how important is species legitimacy vv longevity, in a situation where it will never be seen? Not my thing, so I'm no help there.

LOve the project, though........

[Mel Fulks]

Since the growth rings of poplar don't show as much as those of most woods I would just use easily obtained green color modern heart poplar.

[rudy de haas]

I had reason to look closely at the old wood vs new wood business about 10 years ago - several conclusions:

1 - lots of people are selling recovered wood. Much of it isn't really as old or valuable as they would have you believe, but some is real and if you only need a little bit.. I'd start with craigslist and a real "show me" attitude on price and quality.

2 - new growth is every bit as good as old growth where growth conditions are similar. A tree plantation makes its money from volume and so wants fast growth - and fast growth means giving the trees lots of water, fertilizer, and sunlight (producing large rings) where a tree growing in a native forest has to compete for all three (producing tight rings). In general, the worse the tree's life was, the better the wood looks to us.

From my perspective at the time the key result is that trees cut today can have radically different rings and density simply because of where they grew - shady spots produce denser wood, etc etc. What this might mean to you now, however, is that a supplier to people who care about such things can sort through logs coming into a modern mill to select wood that looks like stuff harvested 150 years ago. I don't know of anyone who actually does this, but if you live in New England you can probably find a mill that buys from farmers or small lot operators and is willing to let you sort through the logs.

[Lee Schierer]

Jim

if you just happen to be in a renovation restoration of an old New England home, and maybe doing moulding. You might be looking for Tulip Wood and not Poplar.
Tulip wood was widely used throughout New England for window and door trim.


What you are referring to is Tulip Poplar, which is common in New England and Pennsylvania. It gets large Tulip shaped flowers in the spring and the leaves look like a tulip viewed from the side.317050 The bees like them and it makes a rather dark colored honey. This is the same poplar that has the green, brown and purple streaks in it.

[Jim Becker]

Jim

if you just happen to be in a renovation restoration of an old New England home, and maybe doing moulding. You might be looking for Tulip Wood and not Poplar.
Tulip wood was widely used throughout New England for window and door trim.
Names can be confusing. Tulip Poplar is the common species used for furniture...it's a member of the magnolia family, rather than the various poplar species that are members of the cottonwood family. Tulip poplar has been used for centuries, especially in the NE of the US because it grows in quantity as well as tall and straight. Many folks think it's only a "paint grade" wood (and much produced today may be best used that way), but it's actually quite workable for dyed finishes and will mimic other close-grained species nicely for furniture projects on a budget. I have a huge amount of this material from my own property and often use it for furniture projects.

It's not the best wood for outdoor exposure because it's not moisture/weather resistant...certainly no better than pine.

[Peter Quinn]

I wonder if you could contact a local mill or one in a region that mills poplar and see if you could specify rift or quarter sawn boards. This would push you to larger oldrr trees of the diameter necessary to yield the appropriate widths, and you end up with a relatively stable product. I have not regularly seen poplar quartersawn which is why I'm thinking it might be custom ordered that way. Might have to buy 1K BF but it's not particularly expensive material to begin width.

On the historical accuracy thing I've always been at odds with the "preservationist" mentality. Not sure that luxury existed 100-200 years ago. Imagine if it did? Our ancestors made everything from stone, so we should make our home and rail cars from carved stone....My guess is they didn't arrive at poplar because it was the ultimate species for strength, or durability, or rot resistance. It was cheap and plentiful, easy to work and light weight. The idea that one must chase trees from a bygone era in the name of some very recent historical accuracy convention barrels me. Why not apply the original design standards to the sub structure....best thing we can get that is cheap and plentiful. Save the painstaking restoration for the facade. Copy the building techniques, using the best materials available today.

maybe I'm over sensitive on the issue. Recently Zoning threatened to turn my 100-150 year old neighborhood into a historical district....we chased them off with pitchforks, and lawyers, and lawyers with pitchforks. Last thing I needed was some old ladies with weekend homes in another neighborhood deciding my home was a museaum whose maintenance and building products, and color, they could dictate!

[David Kumm]

There shouldn't be much difference between poplar trees grown in the wild today or 100 years ago. Poplar generally begins to rot from the inside out after 40-50 years - or less- so all trees are relatively young when harvested. Dave

[Jim Mackell]

On the historical accuracy thing I've always been at odds with the "preservationist" mentality. Not sure that luxury existed 100-200 years ago. Imagine if it did? Our ancestors made everything from stone, so we should make our home and rail cars from carved stone....My guess is they didn't arrive at poplar because it was the ultimate species for strength, or durability, or rot resistance. It was cheap and plentiful, easy to work and light weight. The idea that one must chase trees from a bygone era in the name of some very recent historical accuracy convention barrels me. Why not apply the original design standards to the sub structure....best thing we can get that is cheap and plentiful. Save the painstaking restoration for the facade. Copy the building techniques, using the best materials available today.


While I personally agree with you, our museum doesn't. Need to search for old growth poplar and compare cost to QSWO. Money does sometimes influence the final decision.

[Jim Mackell]

There shouldn't be much difference between poplar trees grown in the wild today or 100 years ago. Poplar generally begins to rot from the inside out after 40-50 years - or less- so all trees are relatively young when harvested. Dave

There is a substantial difference in the strength of the wood. The poplar sheathing helps stabilize the body and prevent the car from racking. It's our considered opinion that new wood won't cut the mustard!

[John Schweikert]

I find a large amount of contradicting information in this discussion.

This is from loghome.com. I highlighted an interesting sentence.

"Yellow Poplar - Liriodendron tulipifera
Common names: Poplar, tulip poplar, tulipwood, hickory poplar.
Grown: Connecticut and New York, southward to Florida and westward to Missouri.
Harvested: South.
Characteristics: Sapwood white, several inches thick. Heartwood yellowish brown. Generally straight-grained, uniform in texture. Old-growth timber moderate in weight, softness; moderately low in bending strength; low shock resistance; moderately large shrinkage when dried, not difficult to season, stays in place well after seasoning. Second-growth timber heavier, harder, stronger than old-growth timber. Low decay resistance.
Approximate R-value per inch: 1.13
Suitability: Not generally available in commercial quantities."

[Mel Fulks]

I had not thought about it before but David is exactly right, huge poplars around here are less than one hundred years old. Since the wood will be covered with painted canvas any material would be adequate ;would not be the first time a museum has substituted an unseen material for practical reasons. I would even bet that that some of the original wood is nothing special. Maybe you people are looking ahead to the tourist movie introduction and the professional baritone narrator describing the "awesome commitment to accuracy." It is my considered opinion ....that the time allowed for the project and the budget are way too big.

[David Kumm]

Let me clarify. I'm from Wisconsin and everything is slow growth here. Dave

[Bradley Gray]

I have repaired a number of American Country furniture pieces made of old "green" yellow poplar. Clear redwood has the same density and similar grain, believable under a finish. On a car I would think the weight of white oak could make the vehicle top heavy and the hardness wouldn't work with tacks to attach canvas.

[Dan Neuhaus]

I would tend to agree with Dave on the strength of old vs new growth yellow/tuplip poplar. Yellow Poplar is an extremely fast growing species and very competitive. I worked on a project not long ago where we replaced some 100+ year old poplar barn floor planking and we used green rough sawn poplar and there was a negligible difference in weight or strength of the new versus the old. There may be some visual difference in the grain straightness but I doubt it will affect strength. That same project was on a 1000 acre estate I managed that was mostly tulip poplar/oak. Over the years we had many storms bring down very old poplars and the wood structure wasn't particularly unique as compared to say old growth pine or fir. Most of the strength perception of old growth wood is related to softwoods. If your set on using poplar I'd choose the straightest grain you can find and make sure there is plenty of air flow to dry out or use an exceptional exterior paint.

[Curt Harms]

[QUOTE=Peter Quinn;2441356
................................................
maybe I'm over sensitive on the issue. Recently Zoning threatened to turn my 100-150 year old neighborhood into a historical district....we chased them off with pitchforks, and lawyers, and lawyers with pitchforks. Last thing I needed was some old ladies with weekend homes in another neighborhood deciding my home was a museaum whose maintenance and building products, and color, they could dictate![/QUOTE]

There was a time (mid-late '80s) when being in a historic district was a useful thing. There were tax credits available for restoration work in historic districts. I don't know that any such benefits exist today.

[Larry Edgerton]

On the historical accuracy thing I've always been at odds with the "preservationist" mentality. Not sure that luxury existed 100-200 years ago. Imagine if it did? Our ancestors made everything from stone, so we should make our home and rail cars from carved stone....My guess is they didn't arrive at poplar because it was the ultimate species for strength, or durability, or rot resistance. It was cheap and plentiful, easy to work and light weight. The idea that one must chase trees from a bygone era in the name of some very recent historical accuracy convention barrels me. Why not apply the original design standards to the sub structure....best thing we can get that is cheap and plentiful. Save the painstaking restoration for the facade. Copy the building techniques, using the best materials available today.

maybe I'm over sensitive on the issue. Recently Zoning threatened to turn my 100-150 year old neighborhood into a historical district....we chased them off with pitchforks, and lawyers, and lawyers with pitchforks. Last thing I needed was some old ladies with weekend homes in another neighborhood deciding my home was a museaum whose maintenance and building products, and color, they could dictate!

I had the historical society come by on the Italianate that is on my website when it was about done. It was one arrogant old guy leading a few old hens and explaining everything as he went. He said it was wonderful to see one restored exactly as it was originally and blathered on a bunch of whoey to impress the old hens.

He didn't ask, and I neglected to tell him, that all the parts including the columns were milled out of Versatex.

I have a CEO of a large corp. trying to get it cleared for me to come up to Mackinaw Island and start making reproduction parts for his two houses, but the historical society will not allow Versatex. He owns two houses next to each other, and lives in the one that is not being painted on the odd year. The climate on the island is about as bad as you could cook up if you tried as far as what it does to wood and he is sick of painters, but no dice. So for now people get to look at yellow scaffold?

[Larry Edgerton]

There shouldn't be much difference between poplar trees grown in the wild today or 100 years ago. Poplar generally begins to rot from the inside out after 40-50 years - or less- so all trees are relatively young when harvested. Dave

David is correct. At least in our part of the country there are no 450 year old poplars. Before 50 years they are done, kaput, finito, so that makes a 50 year old poplar in my neighborhood an old growth tree I suppose. I think you are looking for unicorn feathers. I read what the net had to say about poplar, and I would really like to see a 450 year old poplar.