Joinery saw technique

[David Ragan]

So, I was reading an old 'Woodworking' magazine, remember the one before they merged with Popular Woodworking (bad day)--they had no ads.

Christopher Schwartz was writing an article (I have several of his books, and enjoy reading his stuff), about proper handsawing. 2008.

In joinery, one of the premises is that you should always be able to see the line that your sawing next to. for a right handed person, this would mean that your saw would always be to the right of your line.

So how does that work for sawing dovetails, and other instances where the saw (half the time) would naturally be on the left side of the line? Do you make another line, and saw just to the right of it? I carefully read his text, and that is what he implies, cause he says you have to really master one saw that has a kerf that you're used to.....

If I emailed him, I'm sure he would explain. (He answered a few emails several years ago), but I am asking you all about this.:)

[Pat Barry]

You could turn around and stand on the other side of the board :)

[Andrew Hughes]

The answer is Dont belive anything you read on the Internet.And only half of what you see with your own eyes.:)

[David Ragan]

You could turn around and stand on the other side of the board :)

How simple is that??? Thanks Pat!

[Kees Heiden]

Or just lean a bit over the saw and look from the othr side.

[Robert Engel]

Lean over

or

Use a mirror if it hurts your neck or something.

[Jeff Polaski]

Or just lean a bit over the saw and look from the othr side.

I bought a $1 mirror with a sort of thick plastic handle and stuck it into a dog hole on the other side. Pare it down if it's too thick, tape it if it's too skinny.

[Zach Dillinger]

It isn't as simple as just which hand you use to saw. There is also the issue of eye dominance to consider. I saw left handed but am right eye dominant. It can cause problems if you don't account for it properly. In my opinion, flipping the board around is not the best way as you want to saw from the show side into the side not normally seen.

[Brian Holcombe]

Line the saw up and make certain that your cutting stroke does not turn the blade in an arc left or right. Positioning yourself to pull or push this stroke accurately is key to sawing well, IMO.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Zach raise an important point. Eye dominance makes a huge difference. Like Zach, I'm gauche but right eye dominant.

To test for eye dominance hold a pencil vertically in front of you and in front of an object. Look at it with both eyes. Now close your left eye. If the object doesn't move to one side you are right eye dominant. Now try closing the right eye. The object should move to the right if you are right eye dominant. Obvious the reverse is also true if you are left eye dominant.

The ideal situation is that you would have the same dominant eye as your dominant hand. Those of us who don't have to take a bit more care when making cuts requiring critical accuracy.

[Prashun Patel]

Oh that's very clever. Thanks for the tip.

[Michael Fross]

I'm a right hander and left eye dominant. It does cause me to saw very carefully. What I find after lots of dovetail practice is that I need to angle the saw slightly off what I consider to be perfect so that it cuts true.

The way you can tell which eye is dominant is to make a triangle with the fingers of your two hands outstretched and frame an object in the distance. Focus on the object and then bring the "triangle" to you eye. It will automatically go to your dominate eye.

Michael

[Pedro Reyes]

Zach raise an important point. Eye dominance makes a huge difference. Like Zach, I'm gauche but right eye dominant.

To test for eye dominance hold a pencil vertically in front of you and in front of an object. Look at it with both eyes. Now close your left eye. If the object doesn't move to one side you are right eye dominant. Now try closing the right eye. The object should move to the right if you are right eye dominant. Obvious the reverse is also true if you are left eye dominant.

The ideal situation is that you would have the same dominant eye as your dominant hand. Those of us who don't have to take a bit more care when making cuts requiring critical accuracy.

This was unclear to me (not the instruction, but the results of the execution, i.e. I noticed movement on both instances).

However I tried another trick.

extend your arms and place your hands to form a small triangle with your thumbs and index fingers (now close that triangle to about 1" to 2" in size).
Center an object a few feet away, like a photograph, a doorknob, etc.

close one eye at a time.

If you when closing your right eye the object is not seen - Right eye dominant
If you when closing your left eye the object is not seen - Left eye dominant

same thing, but it was obvious with this one, at least for me.

peace

/p

[David Ragan]

Or just lean a bit over the saw and look from the othr side.

How would you keep your arm in the same plane as the cut?



I bought a $1 mirror with a sort of thick plastic handle and stuck it into a dog hole on the other side. Pare it down if it's too thick, tape it if it's too skinny.

Great idea-I will try it....isn't that like the Leonardo DaVinci thing, like writing backwards in a mirror? I have tried doing stuff like that, and have a devil of a time with it.



Line the saw up and make certain that your cutting stroke does not turn the blade in an arc left or right. Positioning yourself to pull or push this stroke accurately is key to sawing well, IMO.

Having trouble visualizing this, Brian. You mean coming out the other side where you're supposed to, right?


Zach raise an important point. Eye dominance makes a huge difference. Like Zach, I'm gauche but right eye dominant.

To test for eye dominance hold a pencil vertically in front of you and in front of an object. Look at it with both eyes. Now close your left eye. If the object doesn't move to one side you are right eye dominant. Now try closing the right eye. The object should move to the right if you are right eye dominant. Obvious the reverse is also true if you are left eye dominant.

The ideal situation is that you would have the same dominant eye as your dominant hand. Those of us who don't have to take a bit more care when making cuts requiring critical accuracy.

I just tried all these maneuvers. I am a righty, figured I was right eye dominant. Looks like am a no-dominant, ambi-ocular, whatever. I guess thats good,right?

[Brian Holcombe]

David,

In my experience a major factor to sawing straight and on the line is to lineup your wrist and elbow with the blade. It's more important, in my experience, then seeing the line during the entire cut, because after all even if you can see the line you cannot see what the saw is doing on the exit of the cut and if you are torquing the blade in any direction it will not be straight on the exit. You can flip the board but that is not always feasible.

[Jim Koepke]

I am a righty, figured I was right eye dominant. Looks like am a no-dominant, ambi-ocular, whatever. I guess thats good,right?

My eye dominance is also switchable. My handedness is dominant right hand with quite a bit of left handed dexterity. Ambidexterity tends to make some folks uneasy.

Sometimes the waste is on the left side of the line, and sometimes it is on the right side of the line.

An important factor in sawing is to pay attention to the work and not let the mind drift off onto something else. The saw needs to stay in a single plane while it is cutting. Gripping too tightly on the handle can cause the saw to swing or tilt from side to side.

jtk

[Robert Engel]

You only have to look over the blade a time or two then you're just watching the vertical cut, right?

Its something I've done a thousand times, just never thought about it but its never caused a problem for me.

I think you just need to practice

[Steve Voigt]

It isn't as simple as just which hand you use to saw. There is also the issue of eye dominance to consider. I saw left handed but am right eye dominant. It can cause problems if you don't account for it properly. In my opinion, flipping the board around is not the best way as you want to saw from the show side into the side not normally seen.

+1. Anyone who has greater-than-average difficulty sawing square should go test for eye dominance right now. If your problem is that you can saw square horizontally, but not vertically, I will bet money that you are cross-dominant. Dave A. mentioned one way to do the test; here is another (https://paulsellers.com/2014/05/left-or-right-eye-dominant-it-matters-to-hand-tool-woodworkers/).

I struggled with sawing for years. With lots of diligent practice, I managed to go from terrible to mediocre. Then I figured out that I was left-handed but right-eye dominant (sensing a pattern in this thread!). Once I found the cure for cross-dominant sawing, I improved more in three minutes than I had in the past 10 years. That's not an exaggeration.

Oh yeah, the cure: If you are cross-dominant, close your dominant eye when you start the cut.

Here's why that works. If you are cross-dominant, your non-dominant eye is lined up with the saw. Therefore, the view with both eyes open is the same as if you closed the eye that is lined up with saw. This means you are always looking at the saw plate at an angle, and your perception of square is always thrown off. So by closing your dominant eye, you only get the view that is lined up right over the saw, and the problem is solved. I'll never forget the first time I tried this. My first cut was pretty good; my second was better; by the third and subsequent cuts, I was nailing the line perfectly.

It can make you a little dizzy and disoriented to keep one eye closed, so once I get the kerf established, I open my dominant eye. Periodically, I close it again to check. The important thing is to close it when you start the cut. Some people advocate an eye patch or, if you wear glasses, putting tape over one lens. I haven't felt the need to try this.

As others have mentioned, you can compensate for this by intentionally angling the saw; basically you are memorizing the degree of error and correcting for it. I did this for years. But you are constantly fighting your body when you do this. Most people have a pretty accurate inbuilt sense of square (or plumb, actually), so I think it's better to use that sense than to fight against it. If you are happy with your results, by all means keep doing it, but if you aren't, try the aforementioned cure.

There is a great post about this in the Old Tool archive (swingleydev.com). I'm not allowed by the TOS to post the link, but Google "hand saw cross dominant" and it will be the first hit in the search results.

And relax; being cross-dominant is still legal in all 50 states. :p

[Kees Heiden]

It happens that I am lucky. Right handed with right eye dominant.
So for the question of the topic starter I just look normal when the marking line is on the left of the saw and tilt my head a bit to get my eye over to the other side when the marking line is on the right.

But don't worry, I still manage to make a gappy dovetail from time to time.

[Bill White]

BTW, Chris's last name is SCHWARZ.
Bill

[David Ragan]

My eye dominance is also switchable. My handedness is dominant right hand with quite a bit of left handed dexterity. Ambidexterity tends to make some folks uneasy.

Sometimes the waste is on the left side of the line, and sometimes it is on the right side of the line.

An important factor in sawing is to pay attention to the work and not let the mind drift off onto something else. The saw needs to stay in a single plane while it is cutting. Gripping too tightly on the handle can cause the saw to swing or tilt from side to side.

jtk

I went to the Swingley guy web site, and am convinced that I have no dominance, switachable.

So, tough luck, just concentrate?

[Steve Voigt]

I went to the Swingley guy web site, and am convinced that I have no dominance, switachable.

So, tough luck, just concentrate?

If you have no dominant eye, it should not be a problem. But you might try, on some test cuts, closing the eye that is not lined up with the saw. Can't hurt, and you will be able to tell in a few minutes if it makes a difference.

Oh, and getting back on topic, I agree with Zach about cutting from one side. You want to cut from the show side, and flipping the board would be time-consuming (and no, you can't "walk around to the other side of the board"--what are you going to do, lean over your bench?) A dovetail saw plate is shallow (even my #4 backsaw, which is not really a proper dovetail saw, but it's what I use), so just lean your head over, as Kees said.

[Jim Koepke]

Oh yeah, the cure: If you are cross-dominant, close your dominant eye when you start the cut.

Steve, Thanks for posting this. I will have to see if my sawing has any hope of improvement via this technique.

jtk

[Steve Voigt]

Steve, Thanks for posting this. I will have to see if my sawing has any hope of improvement via this technique.

jtk
You're welcome Jim. In my enthusiasm, I neglected to say it was the cure for me, and for the guy in the swingleydev post, but probably not for everyone. If people are already getting good results, then no need for cures. But for anyone who is cross-dominant and frustrated, it's definitely worth a try.

[Warren Mickley]

Very interesting discussion, Steve. I experimented and found I do best with both eyes open. I don't really sight anything up the way one would a gun. When sawing the slanted cuts for a tail board, I found that if I am on the right side of the line, it is easier using the left eye only than the right only. When I am on the left side of the line it is easier using the right eye only than the left eye only. In other words, whichever eye has the best view. I think that in the long run you want to be using both eyes and using the information from both.

[Steve Voigt]

Thanks Warren. Very helpful to hear your results. Further proof, I think, that there is no one size fits all solution. I'd be interested to know, though, if you are cross-dominant or same-side dominant.

For me, I guess the larger issue is that some people can saw well right from the beginning, and others stink at it. For the ones who stink, it might be because they are uncoordinated, can't perceive square, or have mechanical flaws (bad posture, grip, etc.). But for those who have practiced hard, learned good technique, and still can't saw well, it makes sense to look for another explanation before concluding that one is inherently hopeless. I wish I had learned about the cross-dominant thing ten years earlier; it would have saved a lot of frustration.

P.S. Apologies to the OP for derailing the thread yet again. :)

[Kent A Bathurst]

I scribe the lines, and cut the scribe. I don't "leave the line", I "obliterate the line". The scribe rides along the side of the target, so the line needs to go - so I get rid of it. I realize I am cooking is a bit of slop, but not more than 1/128th.........

The scribe will actually give you a little "nick" to locate the blade. I prefer, when at all possible, to cut down to the depth line at an angle, turn the board around, and do the same thing on the other side

[David Ragan]

Thanks Warren. Very helpful to hear your results. Further proof, I think, that there is no one size fits all solution. I'd be interested to know, though, if you are cross-dominant or same-side dominant.

For me, I guess the larger issue is that some people can saw well right from the beginning, and others stink at it. For the ones who stink, it might be because they are uncoordinated, can't perceive square, or have mechanical flaws (bad posture, grip, etc.). But for those who have practiced hard, learned good technique, and still can't saw well, it makes sense to look for another explanation before concluding that one is inherently hopeless. I wish I had learned about the cross-dominant thing ten years earlier; it would have saved a lot of frustration.

P.S. Apologies to the OP for derailing the thread yet again. :)

No apology needed-I love the discussion, have hijacked my share of threads, and....love the phrase "inherently hopeless"....think I'll start using it.

[David Ragan]

I scribe the lines, and cut the scribe. I don't "leave the line", I "obliterate the line". The scribe rides along the side of the target, so the line needs to go - so I get rid of it. I realize I am cooking is a bit of slop, but not more than 1/128th.........

The scribe will actually give you a little "nick" to locate the blade. I prefer, when at all possible, to cut down to the depth line at an angle, turn the board around, and do the same thing on the other side

That is some surgical precision there. I aint there yet.

Chris Schwarz (note correct spelling) on a 'first class saw cut" uses a chisel to make his 'v' to saw into, or nick.

[Kees Heiden]

I find that when cutting dovetails with a marking knife line I tend to remove too much. The saw slips into the marking line and I cut away the line which I should rather leave. In my current project I switched to using a pencil and so far i am happy with that technique. First it is way easier to see, second it is easier to stay close to, but not removing the line. I prefer to make the cuts a bit on the too tight, rather then too loose side.

[Metod Alif]

Any pencil line is really a ribbon - with two edges. I keep track of which edge was next to the straight edge used in drawing it (put a dot next to the line when drawing - use the edge on the opposite side). Cut on the waste side of that edge. Sometimes this means cutting next to the line (leaving the line visible), at other times you erase the line - if it is narrower than the kerf.:)
This method works for me better than using a knifed line. Oh, cutting to the edge is still not a freebie for me - I need to practice and do warm-ups.
Best wishes,
Metod

[Warren Mickley]

Thanks Warren. Very helpful to hear your results. Further proof, I think, that there is no one size fits all solution. I'd be interested to know, though, if you are cross-dominant or same-side dominant.

For me, I guess the larger issue is that some people can saw well right from the beginning, and others stink at it. For the ones who stink, it might be because they are uncoordinated, can't perceive square, or have mechanical flaws (bad posture, grip, etc.). But for those who have practiced hard, learned good technique, and still can't saw well, it makes sense to look for another explanation before concluding that one is inherently hopeless.

I well remember how frustrating it was to learn to use a saw in 1955, but I don't remember too may details. I am right handed and right eye dominant, but am able to switch eyes. I think it is helpful to use both eyes and not to aim by lining up an eye with the saw and the cut. I believe that one can learn to influence these things, training the mind to see things in a different way, not stuck in a particular orientation.

I once attended a master class where a teenage girl was playing flute for a conservatory teacher, who was in town for a concert. After about 30 seconds he walked up, closed up her music and asked her to start again. She was so dependent on looking at the music that she could not even start. Some kids learn best by ear, some by reading the music, some have such good memory that after a few repetitions they are no longer reading the music. In the beginning we can sort of work with their strengths and get them some success, but in the long run we want them to work on their weaknesses. We want them to be able read music while playing, to look at music and hear it in their mind, to play by ear, to be able to write down music they hear. It is a happy day when a kid realizes how valuable it is to work on his weaknesses.

[Prashun Patel]

Most of my problems with dovetails are not from scribing or saw placement with respect to that scribed mark, but with the ability to saw straight. If it were me (and it IS me) I would focus on nailing vertical sawing and then see how much you need to correct your marking and starting. I bet it'll become moot for you as it is becoming for me.

[Brian Holcombe]

Prashun, try this next time you are sawing DT's;

Chuck the piece in a vise. Back a carpenter square up to it, preferably a long one, then line it up so that you can use it to sight how perpendicular you are to the board. Once you sight that, line up wrist and elbow so that your forearm is exactly in line with the back of the saw. Last line up your angle before you start cutting.

Even if you are cutting a DT in 3/4" or 1" thick board it's no where near as accurate as having a 24" reference on the back of the board.