Need help choosing correct router bit(s) for window sashes

[Jesse Dosher]

I'm planning on building some replacement sashes and I'm looking at my router bit options. The sashes will be 1-5/16" deep, and rougly 32x32". In an effort to match the bead profile in my house I purchased the only option I could find: Grizzly C1552 window sash set. It turns out that this set is NOT capable of routing up to 1-3/8" thick, and is in fact not the length specified in Grizzly's literature. I also found the bead profile it cut not be very appealing. So I've returned the set and decided to just go with the more standard ogee profile, which greatly expands my options. The house is from the late 40's, it's decent but nothing special or historic. We're planning on selling it in the next year, so while I want to do it right, I'm not planning on building a window sash that is a work of art to be passed down to my great-grandchildren. heh. The current windows use a bridle joint (open mortise and tenon), so my plan is to do the same for ease of manufacturing.

Here's what I'm trying to wrap my head around:

Do I need (or want) a bit set, or can I accomplish what I need with a single bit?

When concidering the two-part profile-and-rabbit bit (in a two bit set or as a convertable single bit) what advantage and disadvantage is there to cutting the window pane rabbit with the router bit vs on the table saw? It seems that tearout could be worse when cutting the 1/2" rabbit on the router. If it's optimal to cut the rabbit on the TS, then I envision your standard reversable sash-and-rail bit, with the rabbit cutter removed, and I simply see a single bit cutting the profiles face down, and the rail-ends face up.

But, what am I missing with that line of thinking? I have no budgetary issue buying a two-bit set, or a single reversable set, or a single bit and doing face up and face down cuts. What I'm trying to figure out is the best, most fool-proof, efficient approach. The time spent building these sashes will far outweigh the $50 price difference between the various bit/bits I'm considering.

Thanks!
Jesse

[Tom M King]

You can cut the glass rabbets fine on a table saw. Check out the Windows page on my website. HistoricHousePreservation.com I had Whiteside make some custom bits for me. I used five different profiles for some 18th Century exact reproductions. I still ended up cutting the rabbets for the panes on the table saw.

Bridle joints would be fine for your windows, but there is still the cope to do. Cope and stick, with slip tenons would be a lot simpler, and take care of the cope to profile. Of the five bits I had made, two were different copes, but those windows were a lot more complicated than modern ones with every joint a mortise and tenon, and a number of different ones. I had something like 43 of those sash to make. On a more recent job, I only had four sash to make, so I found a molding plane on ebay for 35 bucks that matched the existing ones to make the profile with. The five custom bits were close to $1500, which was worth it for a 38k job, but not for a much smaller job.

Check Amana sash bits. I think they may have some that others don't in stock bits.

[Jesse Dosher]

Ah, thanks. So you think I should consider a straight cope-and-stick approach, with a floating tenon, and rabbits cut on the table saw (if I want)? That was my first thought, then I starting thinking I HAD to have old-school mortise and tenon joints. I don't want to put lipstick on a pig though.

I was originally pondering the Whiteside reversible cope and stick bit:

http://www.amazon.com/Whiteside-Router-Bits-6050-Diameter/dp/B0012JJXKG/ref=pd_sim_sbs_469_4?ie=UTF8&refRID=1W7M2B4VJFB7871WQSVY
It includes a spacer which replaces the rabbiting portion of the stack when doing the coping cuts (and also in the event you want to do the rabbits on the TS, I suppose).

The Amana 55340 is the same thing. http://www.amazon.com/Amana-Tool-55340-Reversible-Window/dp/B0002E3H90/ref=pd_bxgy_469_text_y

Which makes me ask: if I remove the rabbiting portion of one of these bits, am I not simply left with something like the Amana 55343
http://www.amazon.com/Amana-55343-WINDOW-SASH-SHANK/dp/B003DCGR4U/ref=pd_bxgy_469_text_z

My possibly incorrect assuption is that one can remove the bearing and cutter on 55343 in order to rearrange them to do both cuts.



I'm thinking out loud here in order to verify I'm on the right track:

-the check rail (aka meeting rail) of the upper sash will not have an ogee profile on it because it doesn't have a flat (90 degree) face
-the rabbiting cut on the lower sash's check rail may be easier to do on the router table, due to it also not not having a flat (90 degree) face
-my Rockler Beadlock kit will provide a satisfactory solution for the floating tenons, and I should probably drill the Beadlock mortises before cutting the profiles on the router table
-I think I got this.. ;-)

Thanks again.

-Jesse

For visual reference

316881

[Phil Thien]

Not to muddy the waters, Tom King has made a lot more window sashes than I have (zero).

But I saw this and thought it was interesting:

http://blog.infinitytools.com/2013/06/05/divided-lights-and-window-sashes/

[Peter Quinn]

I think the amana 55343 is the dedicated cope cutter for basic cope and stick sash using joinery other than tenons. Its cutter is fixed if I understand it correctly and is not by itself reversible, so its not a complete package, its an accessory for set 55340. Set 55340 is reversible, I have that one, it can make a complete sash as delivered, or you can use the extended tenon cope cutter 55341, or set up a dedicated cope non-tenon with 55343. A number of suppliers offer a very similar set up and several offer the extended tenon cutters as well. If using this type of cutter you really need to do multiple passes with the rabbiting cutter installed. Its a lot of material to remove in one pass with a hand feed on a router table, and its way too much material to remove in one pass with a rabbit cutter in any event. You can certainly take the rabbit cutter off and cut it later with whatever method you chose as long as your set up is accurate. I think you might find it works just fine as long as you take light passes, maybe 1/16" increments per pass. If you want to go to 1 3/4" you could still use the cutter as delivered, let it make the reference depth then remove the remaining waste with a single saw blade or dado as you choose.

As far as joinery, I cant see any way to get those bridle joints in with a cope and stick set on a router. Sash were originally made with some pretty large dedicated single end tenoners that did the whole thing in one quick pass. I'd probably go with dowels or loose tenons for expediency, or you could get the dedicated tenon cutter, or you could do the bridle joints and jack miter them, then you can use any profile you choose that works for your needs, but its by far the most demanding in terms of dedicated set up times. I did a whole solarium worth of replacement sash a few years back to match existing, had to use a sort of thumbnail profile, boss didn't want to spring for a custom set on 10-12 units, so they were all jack mitered with double bridles. Doesn't sound like you want to spend that kind of time if your moving on from this place, no shame in a domino, or even a good dowel joint.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Seems like I remember MLCS having sash bits. Could be wrong though.

[Phil Thien]

I have seen cope and stick joints reinforced AFTER assembly by using a dowel jig to drill through the stile and rail and then driving glued dowels all the way in.

In fact, in one house project on TOH, in New Orleans, Nahm visited a shop where a door (entry door) was made with a large cope and stick set, and then they used a dowel jig on that one, too.

I have destroyed doors (entry doors) with doweled joints and they will give you a run for the money.

[Jesse Dosher]

I have seen cope and stick joints reinforced AFTER assembly by using a dowel jig to drill through the stile and rail and then driving glued dowels all the way in.

In fact, in one house project on TOH, in New Orleans, Nahm visited a shop where a door (entry door) was made with a large cope and stick set, and then they used a dowel jig on that one, too.

I have destroyed doors (entry doors) with doweled joints and they will give you a run for the money.

Interesting idea! I hadn't thought of running dowels in after glue-up as tenons.

[Jesse Dosher]

I think the amana 55343 is the dedicated cope cutter for basic cope and stick sash using joinery other than tenons. Its cutter is fixed if I understand it correctly and is not by itself reversible.

Thanks Peter. Yeah, that makes sense. I figured it probably wasn't actually removable. I may go with the Whiteside 6050 reversible bit, though I'm also looking at some of the matched sets with two bits. The latter would save the step of disassembling the bit to rearrange the cutters, washers, bearing and spacer. I need to looking to how MLCS compares to the other brands, since $70 seems "bargain", but this the idea

http://www.amazon.com/MLCS-Window-Sash-Router-Matched/dp/B000OFJAS4/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1436289315&sr=8-2&keywords=window+sash+router+bit+set

[Peter Quinn]

Thanks Peter. Yeah, that makes sense. I figured it probably wasn't actually removable. I may go with the Whiteside 6050 reversible bit, though I'm also looking at some of the matched sets with two bits. The latter would save the step of disassembling the bit to rearrange the cutters, washers, bearing and spacer. I need to looking to how MLCS compares to the other brands, since $70 seems "bargain", but this the idea

http://www.amazon.com/MLCS-Window-Sash-Router-Matched/dp/B000OFJAS4/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1436289315&sr=8-2&keywords=window+sash+router+bit+set

There is a pretty decent "how to stack this" brochure that comes with the amana set, its not too bad to change over but it did take me a little bit of head scratching and a few test pieces the first time. I have no experience with the MLCS router bits, I had a few shaper cutters from them and those were decent, fairly inexpensive relative to the cost of other vendors. You can pull the rabbit cutter out of the stack and just use the profile cutter as a reversible cutter, or you can get the dedicated cope cutter to avoid the hangover, but spend more $$$. I have done exactly as Phil suggests on a few occasions and run dowels in post assembly from the outside, it certainly works, and dowels add considerable strength. I also have the freud sash set that makes integral tenons, but IIR it doesn't handle cope and stick without tenons so well.