Something better than paste wax for cast iron? Doesn't feel "slick" enough...

[Dan Friedrichs]

I've always religiously applied Johnson's paste wax to my cast iron, but have just never been impressed. After applying (and buffing off), the top just doesn't feel "slick". It feels kinda "sticky". When sliding wood over a freshly-waxed CI top, I've never thought I could feel any improvement (compared to before I waxed it).

A lot of people like T9, but isn't that just wax in some solvents?

Is there a better product to get CI really "slick"?

[steven c newman]

Try this once. Take a basic candle, un-scented, and make a series of squiggle lines across the top. Run a scrap board across the saw, could even make a saw cut. See IF that helps. I use this sort of thing on the soles of my handplanes, they slide a lot better. Candle is just Parafin......

[Bob Lang]

Talcum powder.

[bill tindall]

It takes hours for the wax solvent to fully evaporate and leave behind just wax. I make my own. Dissolve the very hard Carnuba in xylene to make a thick mush after cooling. It is slick and durable even on a planer bed.

[Dennis Aspö]

I've heard of water based varnish used on cast iron, then rubbed off with shavings and sawdust. The stuff left behind should give a slick surface.

[Doug Ladendorf]

Talcum powder. +1 I've even seen this recommended by manufacturers (at least it used to be). Paste wax, T-9 and others will help protect from rusting but you really have to buff them to get any kind of "slick". There is another product I have not tried (TopCote?) that is supposed to make it slick, but talcum powder after waxing/buffing (or just WD-40) should do the trick.

[David Ragan]

Talcum powder.

Yep, I been reviewing a bunch of old WW articles (decades) the last few weeks, and lots folks say + for talc, and no naysayers from what I've seen.

[Leo Graywacz]

Never had a problem with paste wax. Put a thin coat on it and buff it off in about a minute. Lasts for an hour to a week depending on what you are doing. A tablesaw will last a while while a planer will last a lot shorter a period of time because of the pressure applied. Currently using Trewax and I like it.

[Wade Lippman]

I think Boeshield T9 works great. It doesn't stay "slick" as long as I might like, but you can't have everything.

[John Huds0n]

Don't let the paste wax dry. Use an applicator to apply it and then immediatley buff it off

[Rick Lizek]

http://www.nrm.org/apprints/. Sprayway does it all, tops, bits, bearings and is half the cost. They all equally slick. If running the jointer all day I will often reapply whatever every half hour. These folks who say they wax every month are just silly. I have can of auto paste wax I've ben using 40 years. I like the harder paste wax, think it lasts longer. The silicone that gets in the finish is from spray can silicone. Know how they fix it? They add silicone to your finish.

Anyone tried Slipit? Nice stuff
http://www.slipit.com/msds.html

See what they lubricate Moulder beds with...silicone that evaporates
http://www.moulderservices.com/MSI-Slick-Bed-Lubricant-5-Gallon-TC-Bed-5-p/tc-bed-5.htm
Also waxilit
http://www.woodtechtooling.com/Moulder_Bed_Lubricant/moulder_bed_lubricant.html

[glenn bradley]

Don't let the paste wax dry. Use an applicator to apply it and then immediatley buff it off

I agree. Something is amiss. When I buff JPW on my CI it is slick as can be. Material just floats across. I'm corn-fused.

[ian maybury]

Guess the other big factor is the surface finish of the cast iron. Many modern and apparently reputable tables are milled using a surfacing cutter, and even if they are basically flat the finish tends to be quite 'toothy'. (also quite variable - some tables are much worse than others) Something more than paste wax is likely to be necessary to make them properly slick.

The fix in that case is probably to remove this toothing by block sanding using silicon carbide wet and dry paper (start fine, work up to coarser grits and then finer again to finish; change frequently as it blunts fast) - either dry (gets dirty) or preferably using something like mineral spirits as a lubricant. Maybe finish with 400 or possibly 600 if you are feeling keen/depending on how it feels. It's not a big risk on a coarsely machined table, but be careful not to do harm by scratching it too deeply with a too coarse paper, or by overdoing it at edges, or in any other area.

This little improvement can be very significant on a planer thicknesser, especially the lower table over which the rolls have to pull the work. Make sure the jointing tables are above the knives, and/or that the knives are taped over and rotated out of the way before starting.

Don't touch it without first getting an OK from the maker if you think you may end up needing to send the machine back to them, and for similar reasons make sure the tables are flat enough for your needs before touching them....

I'd have said that paste wax should be fine on a properly ground table. Renaissance wax is a little pricey and the high end option, but very slick and leaves a pretty resilient coating….

[David Ragan]

OK-talc seems like a no brainer. I have not waxed anything in a long time, nothing-talc either. Is there a downside to just sprinkling some talc over it?

[Peter Quinn]

We use Bostik Glide Coat (http://www.amazon.com/Bostik-GlideCote-formerly-TopCote-10-75/dp/B00DAN8P2O/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1436034353&sr=8-1&keywords=glide+coat) at work. It goes on quickly, lasts at least as long as past wax, its just way easier to reapply as needed. Dries quicker, has enough solvent in the aerosol formula to fry the brain, but they cover that up with a nasty fake lemon scent. Still, its the best stuff on frequent use machines like planer, jointers, table saws, shaper, etc. At home I use bowling alley wax. Its cheap, I'm cheap, perfect pairing! It works well enough for my needs, I'm not spending $18/can on spray wax when I can get 10X the coverage for 1/3 the money. But the glide coat really works better, makes sense in the production environment or if you are really stingy with it.

[John TenEyck]

I agree, the surface finish of the CI has a lot to do with how well wax works on it. My old Unisaw is really smooth and when it's waxed wood just glides over it. My newer C-man saw has a ground, swirly finish that you can easily feel. Wax helps, but it's not nearly as slick as the Unisaw.

John

[ken masoumi]

I use a car wax for both my car and my shop including cast iron, Aluminum surfaces. it's called Collinite Liquid Insulator wax #845 (http://www.autogeek.net/collinite-insulator-wax-845.html), it makes the CI top very slick, lasts a few months.
Collinite now offers a new wax just for metal (http://www.autogeek.net/collinite-metal-wax.html).

[ian maybury]

Hi John. As you probably know that sounds like it might be Blanchard/Lumsden (UK) grinding - it's a type of grinder that uses a large disc with abrasive pads mounted on a vertical shaft. Commonly used for large area jobbing production grinding, but needs care to deliver high accuracies on flat surfaces.

;) I'm guessing from the lack of response that the prospect of de-toothing coarsely machined cast iron machine tables using a sanding block (a diamond plate with mineral spirits works well too) is causing a sharp in breath in many cases.

It needs some judgement/it's an at your own risk deal, and I certainly wouldn't take a coarse paper or plate to a very finely ground table. I wouldn't either run wild with anything coarse without working up to it via small area tests first. (if the surface gets scratched quite a lot of rubbing with successively finer grits may be required to get back to a regular/uniform looking finish again) Against that flatting with a relatively fine wet and dry paper (it's only going to be necessary on a coarsely milled or ground surface) is much more painless than it sounds.

Start with the finest paper you think you might get away with, and only progressively/as needed go coarser. Then finish with the finer stuff again. It's a relatively quick job, and almost no measurable amount of metal should be removed - so there's no great risk (short of rubbing away like crazy in an area) of causing an out of flatness problem.

Sanding using a coarser than required paper or plate might leave a scratched looking surface/might greatly change the look of a very finely finished/ground surface because the grits might cut right down through the machining marks to scratch most of the surface area. There's however no need to touch an already finely finished surface - or at least only the need to use a very fine paper.

On a surface that's rough/toothy enough to genuinely need attention to reduce friction (e.g. Chinese style milled or coarsely ground tables) the aim is only to clip the tips of the high points or ridges. The visual effect in this latter case is negligible (just a moderate brightening), but because it knocks the toothing/serrations off the tops of the ridges it has a pretty spectacular effect in terms of reducing friction. It's very obvious if a hand is rubbed over it before and after.

This photo shows the sort of surface that block sanding with wet and dry paper used with mineral spirits and then waxing produced on my Hammer F3 shaper - you can see from the machining marks that it started out quite rough, but equally that the fact that it's been sanded is not visually obvious. The saw table and planer/thicknesser rising table were done the same way (the main tables on the planer had some out of flatness issues, and so were scraped flat - this cut off all the original machining marks, and sidestepped the need for sanding):

316782

[Dave Lehnert]

If wax feels sticky then you need to buff more. I'm going to guess you are applying way too much wax. Thick in one coat is not better.
A can of past wax should last years.

[Von Bickley]

I agree. Something is amiss. When I buff JPW on my CI it is slick as can be. Material just floats across. I'm corn-fused.

That works for me to. I use a buffing pad in my drill.

[Dan Friedrichs]

If wax feels sticky then you need to buff more. I'm going to guess you are applying way too much wax. Thick in one coat is not better.
A can of past wax should last years.

Hmmm. Maybe. I think this might just be a problem of me having too high of expectations. I'm going to try some of the Top-Cote product and report back...

[john lawson]

Johnson's paste wax has an ingredient in it to prevent slipping. Yes, prevent slipping. Think about that newly waxed hardwood floor and a woman wearing high heels, potential disaster.

The best product I have used is Butcher's wax, made for bowling alleys. It does not have the non slip agent in it. It makes a big difference.

[ian maybury]

Not to be pushy Dan, but you asked a question and i went to a fair amount of trouble to set out how surface finish can be an issue in getting wood to slide on cast iron machine tables, and how it's sometimes possible to improve the situation by sanding them. (didn't want anybody rushing off and doing damage to their tables as a result of just lobbing in a throwaway comment) There's times when it's just too big an ask for wax alone to solve the problem.

Would you mind please just offering a view as to whether or not this might or might not be an issue in your case? Just what sort of surfaces/by what maker are you talking about? Have they been finely ground, or do they look milled or coarsely ground?

[Charles Lent]

I have banned anything containing silicone from my shop. The absolute best way to ruin a project finish is to get silicone on it. Silicone = Fisheyes everywhere in the finish, and you can't seem to sand it or remove it completely once it's there. Yes, it makes surfaces slippery, but you will regret using it when you try to apply the finish on your project, and the real horror comes when you discover that it has managed to somehow get on everything in your shop. You clean it off of your table saw, only to discover the hard way that it has gotten onto your, jointer, planer, sanders, etc. Nothing you make after you use the silicone will ever finish 100% correct again.

Charley

[Dan Friedrichs]

Not to be pushy Dan, but you asked a question and i went to a fair amount of trouble to set out how surface finish can be an issue in getting wood to slide on cast iron machine tables, and how it's sometimes possible to improve the situation by sanding them. (didn't want anybody rushing off and doing damage to their tables as a result of just lobbing in a throwaway comment) There's times when it's just too big an ask for wax alone to solve the problem.

Would you mind please just offering a view as to whether or not this might or might not be an issue in your case? Just what sort of surfaces/by what maker are you talking about? Have they been finely ground, or do they look milled or coarsely ground?

Ah, sorry Ian. Yes, I suppose that could be part of the problem. I have an assortment of different CI finishes (new CI, some older pieces that I've wet sanded, and some of the euro-style ridged surfaces). In particular, I don't think I'd want to touch the ridged surface, but I may give wet sanding another try if I can't find a more slippery product to coat it with.

[Allan Speers]

Good thread.


I've always used Boeshield T9, with power buffing afterwards, but it doesn't get quite as slick as I'd like. (even on vintage, quality cast iron.) However I do love the ease of application. Also Boeshield is great for getting into nooks & crannies, like hand planes & gears. It disperses water much like WD4, but then leaves a long-lasting wax coating.

- But I'm now itching to try some Butcher's wax.

Curious: A lot of w-workers swear by Renaissance wax. It's much more expensive, but supposedly has a "microcrystalline" structure, and that's either beneficial of complete marketing hoooey. Has anyone ever compared Ren wax to Butchers / bowling alley wax?

[Jon Endres]

I have a can of Butcher's Wax that I bought almost fifteen years ago, haven't used half of it yet. I use it on all my CI surfaces. Yesterday I was having a problem with feeding some very dry ash through my Ridgid TP1300 planer, to the point where I had to push the board manually through the planer. I wiped down the feed rollers and planer bed with denatured alcohol, and then waxed the bed with a thin coat of BW and buffed out. Night and day difference, the planer fed the rest of the ash through without any effort from me. You only need a thin coat, let it dry for a couple of minutes, and then buff out with a clean rag (old t-shirts work well).

I have tried the Boeshield products and was not impressed. Still think I have most of a can of T-9 somewhere.

[Jim Andrew]

I know this is considered heresy, but I did not want my new Hammer K3 to get rusty, so I took a rag and a little wipe on poly and went over the top. Does not soak in like on wood, just puts a very thin surface coat on the table. Does not rust as well as makes the table fairly slick. After it is used for a while.

[Kent A Bathurst]

I agree. Something is amiss. When I buff JPW on my CI it is slick as can be. Material just floats across. I'm corn-fused.

Same here. I apply it with a 3M grey pad, and immediately wipe it off. Slick as can be across the TS, Jointer, Planer.......

Maybe OP's machines are aligned so that the lumber travels North-South?? The wax works much better when the lumber is travelling East-West. Only north of the equator of course - something to do with the coriolis effect, from what I have read.

[Brian W Smith]

If it was posted already,excuse me......

What's your humidity level in your shop?The dryer it is,the slicker most of this equipment becomes,somewhat irrespective of this ,vs that wax/lube.I'm REALLY lazy about waxing but we're in pretty tightly controlled air quality and humidity condition,and it just doesn't seem to be a problem.Translated;Seeing a noticeable difference between waxed/no wax....and stopping the show to wax a top?

+1 on Charles post #24.It's not that we can't deal with contaminates here,but why go through it?Just say no.