New hardwood flooring question.

[Greg Ladd]

Hello everyone,

I am considering installing solid hardwood strip flooring in the kids' bedrooms. Would scraping or planing and then sanding with a Festool Rotex 150/CT 22 combination work?

The rooms are fairly small; 120 square feet or so.

It would give me the advantage of good dust collection and help me justify the cost of some of the tools I have 'needed' over the years. I also do not like the idea of renting a large floor sander of any variety as I have never used one before. I also would need to rent one multiple times over several weeks as I have 3 rooms to do and cannot do them all at once due to space restraints. The cost would add up.

The floors are flat so I assume there wouldn't be too much variation in installed floor height, so sanding shouldn't be to involved. Is that a fair assumption?

Thanks in advance,
Greg

[Richard Wolf]

Not to change your mind, but if you are considering installing hardwood you should really take a long hard long at prefinished flooring. It is impossible to duplicate the quality of the factory finish in a job site finish. Selections and colors are almost endless, for the DIY it's almost a no brainer.

Richard

[Greg Ladd]

Richard,

I have considered that. As a matter of fact, I have purchased 450+ square feet of prefinished engineered floating flooring that I intended to install in these bedrooms. But the pieces are not fitting together as tightly as I would like. My plans are to return this material.

We have an engineered, floating floor in our kitchen/dining room area that I have not been too happy with. Some of the glue joints have failed over the last 9 years and gaps have surfaced in the floor. Consequently, moisture has permeated the finish and the floor is now looking somewhat tired.

I just feel as if a on-site applied finish will stand the best chance of looking good for a longer time period in the seams.

I certainly agree that I cannot apply a finish as consistantly as what is available from the prefinished flooring but my concern is with the seams that result from that type of installation. If it were only my wife and I and I could be certain that there was not going to be any moisture issues it would be a no brainer.

Thank for the suggestion,
Greg

[Richard Wolf]

Greg, don't be confused between high pressure lamiate floating engineered flooring with true 3/4" prefinished hardwood flooring.
Purchasing prefinished hardwood is the same stuff as strip flooring that you want to install only it has a finish already applied at the factory. In the past, seams where addressed with a v groove which some people found offensive and a dirt collector. New type is made with flush seams which may still be slightly more visiable than a sanded floor, but the durability of the finish and no mess factor can outweigh this slight objection.
I would suggest a trip to a good flooring store and stay out of Home Depot for a better selection and advice.

Richard

[Michael Gabbay]

Greg - I agree with Richard on this. In past homes we've always done sand and stain 3/4" oak. But in the home we are in now, we had to go with a prefinished product due to the timing of the move and installation of the floors. Our floor company recommended Mirage prefinished. They are as close to sand and stain as you can get. The major benefit other than no finishing issues is that if you ever want to refinish the floors a moderate to light sanding will remove the micro-bevel edge and it becomes a sand and stain floor. We have a lab and twin 6 year boys and they've held up very nicely over the past 4 years.

Mike

[Mark Singer]

I agree with Richard...prefinished is great! A client of mine just bought Santos Mahogany , sometimes called "Insence wood" for $5.00 a Sq ft prefinished! It is more stable since it is engineered. I used it about 16 years ago and it still looks great!

[Jason Roehl]

I've installed some oak flooring professionally, and I've got to say that while it's cut pretty well, you would be in for a lot of work without a real floor sander. The Rotex is a very good, even aggressive if need be, sander, but it won't touch the differences in height you would have to get rid of. At least not in your lifetime. I would second the suggestions to get a good quality prefinished in your case, probably one with a micro-bevel.

[Greg Ladd]

Thank you everyone for for the advice.

The flooring we have in the kitchen/dining room area is the type you are all referring to. It has flat seams. This is the floor that has come apart some of the seams. And again, moisture has gotten in the seams and made the floor look bad. This flooring was not inexpensive and is the biggest regret we have in this house.

All that being said, I will go take a look at some flooring stores and see. Maybe someone can convince me that the flooring has changed considerably in the last 8 years.

Jason,

Thank you for the comments regarding the Rotex. I will reconsider my position. But I warn you...my wife and kids say I am bull-headed!

Greg

[Dev Emch]

Greg...

I agree to a great extent with what has been said but you have to consider a few items.

1). The finish on pre-finished floor is robust. It is not only catalyized but contains suspended aluminum. It is also many layers thick. There is no doubt that it will last a long time. Nonetheless, it still will show scratches. Your still going to need to clean this floor and maintain it just like the older finish in place flooring. Where it earns its keep is in high traffic areas. In other applications, the traffic on the floor is never bad enough to wear out the more traditional finishes.

2). It saves you quite a bit on installation. Finishing floors in place is a major element of the cost of floor installation.

3). Here is my pet peave against it. No matter how careful you are, standard flooring is never flush enough all the way through on conventional strip floor installation. You can get bit one or more of three ways. 1). The subfloor is not perfectly level. Residual elements of older floors, warped subfloors, sections of subfloor that are not flush to one another, etc. 2) & 3). Strip flooring is run on a moulder and a tenoner (sticker). You can get variations in the grooves on both the moulding side and the ends leaving one side slightly high and the other slighly low. You can feel this with your hands. The top cutter may leave the wear layer 10 or 15 thousandths different from one setup to the next. Etc. Etc.

These issues were always solved by sanding the floor with a floor sander like an essex or clarke. But you cannot do this with prefinished flooring for obvious reasons. So to solve these problems, the clever devils put a micro bevel on the edges of the wear layer. This way, none of the afore mentioned issues will be a problem.

But I dont like the appearance of these micro bevels. I prefer to leave the floor glass smooth one side of the room to the other. This is esp. valid in a kitchen environment. Should you have a darker colored floor such as bra. cheery or oak or ipe, etc and you spill a bit of say powdered surgar, your in trouble! It gathers into the micro bevels and acts as a white colored grout leaving surgar grout lines. That is a true pain in the rear for the lazy person to clean up. That would be me! The glass smooth floor is cleaned in a jiffy with a broom and pan.

Also, even though the finish is robust, what happens when you refinish the floor? Does one sand below the micro bevels? Or does one leave them in which case the stain, patina, etc in the bevels may finish to a different color than the actual field areas of the floor.

As a hard core traditionalist, I avoid prefinish because I just dont like the micro bevels. Its a great compromise for someone who is not comfortable with floor finishing but in the long run, I have come to realize that there is no substitute for real 3/4 inch, solid, finish in place flooring.

Just my 5 cents worth... not even enough to buy a cup of coffee....:)

[Greg Ladd]

I returned all of the floating engineered flooring I had purchased from HD today. This flooring was Harris-Tarkett Taptight preglued maple with flat seams.

They gladdly refunded all of my money. The local HD is great about that.

LOML and I talked about it and we simply do not know what to do as far as what type of flooring to purchase. I truly believe that no matter what we do will involve some compromises. I just have to decide which ones to live with.

So... our current plans are to try to get to a larger city that has a large floor store such as Lumber Liquidators and visually see what our options are. That may have to wiat a week or so due to scheduling conflicts.

Thank you everyone for all of the points that were made. You folks really are a helpful group.

I will let you all know what we have decided when the time comes.

Thanks again. - Greg

[Phil Maddox]

To answer your question, scraping and sanding with a RO sander will get the job done but it will be slow going.

If that Festool model is the one that can switch between fine sanding and major stock removal, you will be better off. 120 square feet isn't that much.


Remember, on flooring, you typically end with 120 grit or so, this is not a furniture building exercise. This helps the finish get a "bite".

I have installed thousands of square feet of both pre-finished and unfinished flooring and I am not a fan of the pre-finished stuff.

Greg is correct that you can't duplicate the factory finish in the field - and thats a good thing, the factory finish is water-based and VERY thin. VERY difficult to repair also.

A lot of the pre-finished stuff has beveled edges, this is because the boards have some variation in them and this helps disguise it.

Go ahead and give it a whirl, lay the floor and try the Rotex. If it is too much, you can always use a belt sander to help.

Three coats of OIL-based FLOOR poly (I like Basic brand) will leave a finish that will last a long time.

Good luck!

[Bill Spievak]

I used the Festool 150 on a customer's bedroom floor I layed a year ago. She didn't want the mess of a big sander and was willing to pay for the extra time it took. As it turned out the amount of time to sand the bedroom, just under 200 square feet of hard maple, was 2 days to go from 60 to 150. I was surprised that it went so fast. Just be sure to have good knee pads and a good suppy of sanding discs. By the way I ran the 150 hooked up to my Fein vac and she complimented me on the lack of mess in the rest of the house. Yes, I did put plastic up on the door to the hall but if I'd been running my Clarke there would have been lots more dust throughout her house.

[Greg Ladd]

Phil,

Thank you for the information. I think the factory finishes on these floors nowadays are unbeatable..in between the seams. But that is where I see the problem lies.

Thanks for the encouragement. It is nice to know my original idea may have had some validity.

Greg

[Greg Ladd]

Bill,

Nice to hear that someone has actually done this and survived to tell about it. I am a little more encouraged now that my idea may have some merit.

I really think this is something I can do, if I am patient enough with the Rotex. If you don't mind more questions... how much sand paper did you use and what grits for how long. What mode did you use on the Rotex, rotary or orbital? Or both?

What finish did you apply afterwards and how?

Greg

[Bill Spievak]

how much sand paper did you use and what grits for how long. What mode did you use on the Rotex, rotary or orbital? Or both?



I used nearly 50 sheets of 50-60 - once over in aggressive mode and once over in finish. Did the same with 80- problably used nearly another 50, then to 120- maybe used fewer but it sure didn't feel like it to my knees, and finish mode only with the 150- didn't use so much of the 150, just wanted to be sure I had a smooth and consistent feel to the whole area.

What finish did you apply afterwards and how?

I used Parks Pro Finish with Padco synthetic pads for the edges and a Purdy White Dove 3/8 roller for the field. Yes, I know using a roller sounds strange but it works for me and the clients like the result.

[Steve Evans]

Greg

Just to add to some of your earlier points. Any of the engineered floors that I have installed, I have nailed down. That's engineered, not Laminate. I realize that they can be glued, but as your experience indicates, I think that gluing exposes the installer to problems down the road. Out of all the flooring types that I've put dowm, the Mirage engineered looks the best when installed. NO bevel. It will look the closest to a post install finish. That being said, if you don't mind spending a couple of days sanding the floor out with the Rotex, have at er. At least it won't be dusty ;)

[Jeff Bradley]

I am in perpetual hardwood floor installation research mode as it is a long term project I have always wanted to do. I have a foyer that is pre-finished oak strips and have never liked it. The bevels are just too distracting (visually) and they do nothing but make it difficult to clean. Haven't seen the micro-bevels but they would have to be pretty micro to offer the seamless look I have always liked in a hardwood floor. The no-bevel stuff sounds interesting but I can't imagine the result being truely flat due to variations in materials as well as the subfloor.

Although it doesn't help Greg, the dust issues associated with a post-install finish seem to be at least partially solved (if you believe their website) by Oneida with their setup for floor sanders (http://www.oneidavac.com) (http://www.oneidavac.com%29). Seems like it would be a lot more viable for a professional than spending two days on your hands and knees with a Rotex at least ;)

Not to hijack the thread, but I have always had a hard time finding information on hardwood floor installation for anything but the basic arrangment. Anyone have good resources for information on how to install a floor with borders (in constrasting woods), inlays, or other decorative elements. When I ever get around to putting down hardwood, I would like to justify my time/energy/tools investment by doing more than a basic install.

[Bill Spievak]

You might want to try hardwoodinstaller.com I've found it to be a excellent source of info and comparison data.

[Greg Ladd]

Bill,

Thanks for the reply. It sounds as if I need to stock up on some sandpaper if I want to tackle this project this way.

I actually think the roller idea makes sense. It certainly would speed things up and the finish should look nice.

How long does the Parks need to dry between coats?

Greg

[Bill Spievak]

Despiet what the label says, I give it 24 to 48 hours, depending upon temp. and humidity. I have done second coats in as little as 12 hours, but then I felt it took longer for the finish to completely cure. I tell my customers to give the floor a full seven days before putting furniture on it, or walking on it with shoes. Most of my clients move furniture on after 4 to 5 days, but if I told them 4 to 5 days they would be on it in 2 or 3.

[Dev Emch]

To Jeff and anyone else with an interest....

First of all, the term "Micro Bevel" applies to the slight bevel on the wear surface of prefinished flooring. The bevel that you do not like *IS* a micro bevel. They call it that to differentiate it from a bevel that one would find on say beveled tonque and groove paneling. From the sounds of it, you have already run into to the negative cons of this type of flooring. Also mentioned, repairs to this flooring is very unpleasant. Thanks for bringing up this issue.

In terms of buying flooring. This is a real pain. The flooring trades tend to be a closed shop and outsiders are only welcome if you bring your checkbook and pay the installers. Having said that, there are some flooring outfits that will sell to you and they usually purchase flooring from a wholesale to the trade only warehouse operation. I use Timbeck Mills strip maple. This is unfinished maple strip from canada and the folks at timbeck mills do an outstanding job. The stock is clean and straight and the moulder work is perfect! Often I have to go to one of these design shops and buy the stock from them. I do the paper work and then drive over to Denver Hardwoods and give them the purchase order. They then pull the bundles from the stacks and put them on my trailer. It seems like a major effort but I have found that my most popular hardwood flooring material is 3.25 inch Timbeck maple. Man Oh Man does this stuff lay down and finish out well! It fits so well that if you do your prelim work on the subflooring correctly, you hardly need to do any finish sanding!

As for borders, medalians, etc. You have just opened up a real can of worms. I am going to start a new thread on this as its such an awsome and involved topic.

Regards...

[Greg Ladd]

Dev,

Do you by chance have a phone number for the flooring you mentioned? It sounds like something that would be nice to use if I can find it in my area or possibly have some shipped to me.

Thanks - Greg

[Greg Ladd]

Bill,


Thanks for the advice on the finish and the curing times. I certainly would not have waited that long. You probably saved me a lot of grief!

Greg

[Dev Emch]

Gregg...

I have to buy the flooring from ....

Rock Solid Hardwoods @ 303-572-1234. They are one of the larger flooring dealers in the Denver area. They in turn get it from

Denver Hardwood Co. Inc. @ 303-296-1168. But these guys sell only to the trade. They will not even sell to a contractor... your business has to be 100 percent dedicated to reselling and/or installing hardwood flooring.

I have even considered opening up a new business that deals only in hardwood flooring which my other business simply has to subcontract to. This way, my flooring business can gain direct access to denver hardwoods. But I dont know how much business i have to do per year to justify keeping the account channel with Denver Hardwoods open. Its an idea.

If you look up wholesale flooring supply companies in the closest large city where you live and ask them if they handle Timbeck Mills out of canada, you may be able to get it from your neck of the woods. Timbeck or Tembeck are actually the guys who make this stuff.

What I like about maple is that it is rock hard but not so hard as to hurt your feet. It also has a warm, honey shaded, neutral color about it. Makes it easy to fit into all sorts of interior decor and it provides a wonderful field for the addition of flooring decor elements which themselves use darker woods such as walnut or mahag or ebony or wenge or paduck.

Its also the ultimate shop floor. That or hickory as Lou used in his shop. Maybe that is why it was used years ago in so many older mills and factories.

[jack duren]

pre-finished is ok but i wouldnt have it. ill put the second coat on these i just installed tomorrow. its work but the rewards are worth it.....jack

[Greg Ladd]

Dev,
Thanks for the information. That should help me find someone who can sell to me.

Greg

[Greg Ladd]

Jack,

That looks great!

Greg

[Chris Padilla]

Ah, freshly finished solid hardwood floor...beautiful!

[Kevin Murdock]

My wife and I just finnished laying Jatoba down on the 1st floor of our house.

The wood is 3/4 solid unfinnished Jatoba which is milled here in Willimington, NC at Dean Hardwoods Inc.

Best part about this product is that it comes in 10' bundles and quite a few of the piece lengths we that long. Most were longer than 4' and it was very rare to come across any less than 3'. And not many boards were unusable. Very different from what we saw at the Borgs.

We were lucky enough to have the time to allow the wood to darken for two weeks after we sanded. Having the raw, sanded wood sit makes all the difference as the floors are almost as dark as the Jatoba we layed about a year ago in the upstairs of the house.

Once it was layed, we also allowed the floor to cure for 2 full weeks before placing anything on it. Not having children or pets in the house makes all the waiting between work possible.

We used Bona Mega poly for the finnish. It was recommended by many on this forum and I can't say enough about it. We're happy with the results. :)

The first image is of the north room in the house still wet right after applying the poly. Others are of the finnished product in both of the larger rooms on the first floor.

The work was hard, removing the old carpet with particle board, and some cheap glue down eng. oak, but the wife and I had fun and are pleased with the results.

/Kevin

[Jason Roehl]

That sure is a purrrrdy floor, Kevin. I like Jatoba, and I like Bona Mega, too. In fact, I may be using some by mid-week.

[jack duren]

agree, nice Jatoba floor and finish. i used ZAR antique flat. put on the second of three coats today. used the original nap and didnt turn out well. ill have to buy a new nap for the final coat. but the floor is protected enough for wall repair and painting.

never ending projects. love & hate em......jack