Shaker door shaper cutters

[Mike Berrevoets]

I need to make cabinet doors and 5 panel drawer fronts for our kitchen remodel. I've never used a shaper before and I'm looking at shaper cutter options.

My wife wants a "shaker" door with the beveled edge. It looks like there are three or four options that I've found so far.

MLCS has a stacked shaper cutter for about $80
MLCS has a two piece shaper cutter set for about $180
Infinity has a two piece shaper cutter set for about $200
Freeborn has a 6 piece cutter set for somewhere around $400 or maybe a little less.

Since I only need this to make one kitchen's worth of doors/drawers I'm assuming longevity won't be an issue with any of the options. But, is one option easier to set-up and use than the other? I kind of like the Freeborn set even though it costs more because there is an option to cut tongue and groove rail and stiles and that is something I might do more in the future. Plus, if I need to sell the set later I'm guessing the freeborn will have the best resale.

are there other things I'm not thinking of as a new shaper user?

thanks, Mike

[Chris Payne]

If you are just needing one set your best bet would be to have them built.

[Peter Kelly]

If you're only making one set of doors, I'd go with the Infinity brazed ones. Always been pretty pleased with the quality of their tooling.


are there other things I'm not thinking of as a new shaper user?Get a stock feeder if you haven't already.

[Martin Wasner]

I've got a Freeborn shaker insert head set I'd like to sell. But, I want to sell all of my heads at once. I've got shaker, ogee, and quarter round sets. Three sticking, three cope heads.

[rudy de haas]

Mike:

I'm in much the same position - bought a used shaper to make a small number of things including some cabinet doors and some rail and stile wall elements. Mine came with a few cutters but, of course, I need more. Dimar has a beauttiful set - $805! more than I paid for the machine and not something I'm going to do. Grizzly has some things you might like (the C2176 set does what you want for about $265 for the larger ones).

I've already managed to embrass myself by buying (for $30 canabucks at a gaage sale) a set of cutters that I can't use - so be careful what you buy. In particular make sure what you get is right for the thickness of your wood - you can fake it a bit with spacers and height adjustments, but a cutter intended for 3/4 inch woods is harder to make work than you'd want things to be if you're cutting 1" wood.

[Peter Quinn]

Freeborn is the most flexible option, probably the best resale as a percentage of purchase price but double the cost, so you pay for the privlidge. I have several infinity sets, they are functionally the equivalent of the freeborn sets, equally easy to stack, lots of groover options, I think you can even get an extended cope cutter for tenons. At the shop where I work professionally we use freeborn or equivalent, for the home shop where margins are tighter and demands not so intense I'm not afraid to go infinity. You didn't mention your spindle size, infinity braised sets are unfortunately only available in 3/4" bore, freeborn offers both 1 1/4" and 3/4". You might get better resale with the 1 1/4" heads, you could bush these down to 3/4". Amana also sells some decent sets for reasonable cost.

[Peter Quinn]

Here is another option for shaker doors in 3/4" bore

http://www.amanatool.com/sc565-2-piece-carbide-tipped-3-wing-instile-rail-adjustable-cabinet-door-22-1-2-degree-bevel-x-2-3-8-dia-x-1-1-16-to-1-21-64-x-1-2-3-4-bore-set-for-5-8-to-1-1-4-material.html

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Mike, is the frame a plain frame with no profile?

If so you can make that with a grooving cutter.

If the panel needs a bevel you will need a cutter for that unless your shaper spindle tilts.......Regards, Rod.

[J.R. Rutter]

Here is another option for shaker doors in 3/4" bore

http://www.amanatool.com/sc565-2-piece-carbide-tipped-3-wing-instile-rail-adjustable-cabinet-door-22-1-2-degree-bevel-x-2-3-8-dia-x-1-1-16-to-1-21-64-x-1-2-3-4-bore-set-for-5-8-to-1-1-4-material.html

Strange that they make a point of labeling (twice) "T" then not specifying what it is. Assume 1/4" ?

What is everyone's thought on the beveled inside profile? A shop just asked me the other day if I could make doors like that.

A set of inserts and backers for my universal Great Lake Tool heads is about $450. They will create and grind custom stuff based on wood sample or drawing in about a week.

[Martin Wasner]

What is everyone's thought on the beveled inside profile? A shop just asked me the other day if I could make doors like that.


I just ordered eight new heads, twenty four backers, and forty eight inserts. I did so with a slightly eased edge where it contacts the panel. Plus a four wing straight cutter. A big pill to swallow ordering all that at once.
Advantages to the eased edge, no fuzz, and it creates a shadow so if the panel isn't one hundred percent tight, it doesn't show. It should be less prone to tear out on that sharp edge, but that shouldn't be much of a concern if the inserts are sharp. Just a bit more forgiving.

The finisher might grumble a bit on stained things depending on how eased that edge actually is being it's one more spot to rub stain out of. Painted stuff, you can caulk that joint and the door should look flawless for a long time. Even it's not caulked, where the paint cracks at the sticking to panel joint is inside a bit if it's a light build.

I wavered on the decision for a while, I determined if I didn't like it, it wasn't a big deal. The inserts have a relatively short life span anyways, and I could just switch them out as needed.

[Martin Wasner]

Or are you talking about the sticking profile JR?

A shop I worked at did a single job that way. Where the rail meets the stile is tricky being there's no lip. There's nothing you can do to make that glue line disappear like you can with a regular stick and cope set. Prone to flaking at the r&s connection as well if it's not glued perfectly, which is virtually impossible

[J.R. Rutter]

I spec a tiny radius at the groove edges as well. Smaller than every "factory" type door that I've seen, but enough to avoid small chipping and allow just enough stain bleed to help mask shrinkage effects.

Thanks for your feedback on the sticking profile. Seems like the bevel would have to be pretty steep - like 75-70 degrees to minimize the rail:stile joint issues.

Who did you buy the cutterhead package from?

[Martin Wasner]

Precision Edge Tooling. Which I think is a store brand name, I'm not sure who actually produces them. There was a fairly large woodworking machinery company here in Minnesota called G.C. Peterson, I think they were having then made and sold under their own name. Peterson got bought out by Acme Tools five or six years ago. So, I bought them through Acme Tools

[Mike Berrevoets]

Hi Mike, is the frame a plain frame with no profile?

The boss (wife) wants it beveled on the inside of the frame. There seem to be a lot more options (and cheaper ones at that....) if it's not beveled. The panel will be flat.

[Mike Berrevoets]

Strange that they make a point of labeling (twice) "T" then not specifying what it is. Assume 1/4" ?

One of the retailers had the "t" dimension and it said 3/16".

[Mike Berrevoets]

Thanks all for the input. I'm leaning towards the infinity cutters. They aren't much more than the MLCS for the 2 cutter set. I just don't think I want to spend the money on the Freeborn.

dumb shaper questions from newbie:

everything gets run face down so the reference face is consistent?

rail ends (cope) first and on a coping sled?

I don't have a power feeder and didnt plan to get one. But, I see a lot of people recommend them with shapers. I can see where it would increase safety for some items but is it necessary for running the inside profiles? I don't see with the profile that I'm taking off much material and if I set the fence correctly couldn't I do this shaping safely?

[J.R. Rutter]

everything gets run face down so the reference face is consistent?

Not critical if all of your stock is exactly the same thickness. If it varies at all, then running face down puts any misalignments on the back side. Personally, since I widebelt everything after assembly anyway, I prefer to be looking at the show face while working to spot more small defects. Do whichever makes sense for the way you work and the material at hand.


rail ends (cope) first and on a coping sled?

Again, you can do it either way. But if you plow the sticking (groove) first, then you will need a profiled backer to prevent blowout when doing the copes. By cutting the copes first, you can just use a flat backer and if you do get blow-out, there is a chance to remove it during the sticking cut later.


I don't have a power feeder and didnt plan to get one. But, I see a lot of people recommend them with shapers. I can see where it would increase safety for some items but is it necessary for running the inside profiles? I don't see with the profile that I'm taking off much material and if I set the fence correctly couldn't I do this shaping safely?

If you have a shaper, you really should have a power feeder, even if it is a "baby" version. You will get far more consistent results using a feeder and outboard fence, with less setup time.

You can use a split fence and offset the infeed/outfeed, but for short rails this can be tricky. Even with a perfect setup, a part with some side bend can give you snipe.

For best results, plan on removing the pattern plus 1/32" to 1/16" on the sticking cut.

[Martin Wasner]

You can do a standard shaker style door and do a bevel on just the rails very easily. I use a 30º bevel, but it could be anything really. I just happen to have a 30º cutter in the drawer.

[Buck Williams]

Can I ask a question somewhat related to this topic? I'm no expert on Shaker furniture, I have a few Thomas Moser books and have read a few books on Shaker furniture, looking for design ideas and stuff. Nothing that I read or seen suggests beveling the inside edge of the rails and stiles of cabinet doors, was it a common Shaker design feature? I'm sure it looks nice and probably softens or lightens the edge and it fits the clean, no frills Shaker lines, I've just never seen it before the Shaker rail and stile bits became available. I yield to the Shaker experts.

[J.R. Rutter]

Good thought Martin. Maybe I'll try to sell that rail bevel idea before buying a cutter set.

Straying a little off topic, but we used to do this style all the time. Rail profiles and square stiles offer lots of possibilities. Some of the big door factories do things like this, but they have to upcharge to the point where small shops can be very competitive, since most of us have someone who can do the router table work for the stiles no problem (not to mention having a router table).
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-sI64dZVE-wo/VZcHRJDBbzI/AAAAAAAAHSI/nGrPpsgT9mY/s640/IMG_3574.JPG

[Martin Wasner]

That's interesting. I've never thought about partially routing the stiles

[Mel Fulks]

That's interesting. I've never thought about partially routing the stiles
Martin, I never thought about it either ....looks like a summer camp project. Just glad they "USED to make them"

[Mike Berrevoets]

Nothing that I read or seen suggests beveling the inside edge of the rails and stiles of cabinet doors, was it a common Shaker design feature?
I yield to the Shaker experts.

Well, I'm no shaker expert and I haven't slept at a Holiday Inn Express lately.."

We aren't trying to be true to the shaker style, I'm just calling them shaker because that's what the manufacturers call the cutters. My wife wants something simple. The last kitchen was the same door style except no bevel. We are thinking the bevel gives it a little more interest and the hope is that they will be easier to wipe clean. We have a lot of the square "mission" style doors in bathroom vanities, built-ins and wainscoting and it can be tough the get the dust out of that inside corner.

So, I'd be interested to know the answer too.

[Mel Fulks]

My theory is that shaker men and women lived separately because they could not agree on what constituted "shaker style cabinets".

[Peter Quinn]

Strange that they make a point of labeling (twice) "T" then not specifying what it is. Assume 1/4" ?

What is everyone's thought on the beveled inside profile? A shop just asked me the other day if I could make doors like that.

A set of inserts and backers for my universal Great Lake Tool heads is about $450. They will create and grind custom stuff based on wood sample or drawing in about a week.

The "T" is not specified to the Amana web site anymore...its their new less is more web model. They overhauled their site last fall, used to be boring but accurate and effective, now its flashy, but has less information and is infinitely more annoying. There web designer should be spoken to sternly, site now sucks. The catalogue says T is adjustable, made for a variety of plywood panels, the range is 3/16"-5/16". Not sure why they couldn't point that out on the web page. Perhaps they should try using their own site?

[Peter Quinn]

My theory is that shaker men and women lived separately because they could not agree on what constituted "shaker style cabinets".

ROFPMP. Nice Mel! I have to agree with the assertion that the beveled edge sticking profile is not anything I've ever understood to be "Shaker" despite the fact that several manufacturers insist on calling their beveled edge cutters shaker. My last boss was sort of a shaker aficionado, had lots of books on the subject I used to peruse at lunch. I went looking examples of "shaker" edge profiles in these books, mostly square edge with the panel raise to the back for a square edge flat panel look. No beveled edges. Somebody in marketing made that name up. Doesn't change what the OP wants or what the vendor calls it, why should anybody care about historical accuracy?

[Buck Williams]

ROFPMP. Nice Mel! I have to agree with the assertion that the beveled edge sticking profile is not anything I've ever understood to be "Shaker" despite the fact that several manufacturers insist on calling their beveled edge cutters shaker. My last boss was sort of a shaker aficionado, had lots of books on the subject I used to peruse at lunch. I went looking examples of "shaker" edge profiles in these books, mostly square edge with the panel raise to the back for a square edge flat panel look. No beveled edges. Somebody in marketing made that name up. Doesn't change what the OP wants or what the vendor calls it, why should anybody care about historical accuracy?

I guess that was the kind of the point of the question, whether Shaker was a marketing term or whether or not it was a real Shaker design feature. Certainly wasn't trying to call the OP or anyone out about not being Authentic Shaker, just curious. Thanks

[Mike Berrevoets]

Certainly wasn't trying to call the OP or anyone out about not being Authentic Shaker, just curious. Thanks

Buck - I didn't think you were trying to call me out. I took it as asking out of curiosity. I'm curious too about whether it is authentic shaker but it really doesn't matter too much to me because it's the "style" the boss wants. I find if I just say "yes dear, I can make it like that", then she doesn't look too critically at what tools I buy to build her what she wants. It works out good for both of us. :)

[Rod Sheridan]

http://www.cmtutensili.com/show_items.asp?pars=HK~690.085~2

How about this?

#86 is the complimentary knife..........Rod.

[Buck Williams]

I get that Mike, I think I might have married her sister.

[Peter Quinn]

http://www.cmtutensili.com/show_items.asp?pars=HK~690.085~2

How about this?

#86 is the complimentary knife..........Rod.


Those don't do it Rod, that set is for V paneling with a total included angle of 30 degrees, its not a cope and stick set. The bevels move in opposite directions.

[Peter Quinn]

Martin, I never thought about it either ....looks like a summer camp project. Just glad they "USED to make them"


I did a pile of very similar panels in white oak last summer, minus the panel mold top and bottom. Absolutely elegant and gorgeous....and the largest pain in my rump in recent memory. we had to chisel the corners square, or rather equal from both edges, which a router does not create. Joy. I don't care for the style pictured but its very close to something I consider wonderful.

[J.R. Rutter]

They look better with a glaze. I think a lot of them went into spendy ski resort condos. Chiseling white oak does not sound like a fun day...

http://hertco.com/content/images/001144/alder/img21.jpg

[Joe Calhoon]

I like the look. We did a historic house where all the doors and cabinets were like this. The house doors had a applied panel mould on the horizontals and there was a small v cut above the stopped chamfer also. We did everything on the shaper and used a router jig with the stile on a 45 slope to square off the chamfer using a v cutting bit. In the end we got fast at hand chisiling them square.
Joe

[J.R. Rutter]

Interestingly, I just had a request for quote for this style:

https://bellmontcabinets.com/media/styles/Whistler_MapleNatural_Flat-zoom.jpg

[Martin Wasner]

Try to talk then into a lip, it's not very fun when the angle goes straight to the face of the door. If it's paint grade, it's not as bad, but if it's stained that glue joint is going to look a mile wide. Especially if it's stained really dark

I should have a set of knives cut for that.

[Larry Edgerton]

Well, I'm no shaker expert and I haven't slept at a Holiday Inn Express lately.."

We aren't trying to be true to the shaker style, I'm just calling them shaker because that's what the manufacturers call the cutters. My wife wants something simple. The last kitchen was the same door style except no bevel. We are thinking the bevel gives it a little more interest and the hope is that they will be easier to wipe clean. We have a lot of the square "mission" style doors in bathroom vanities, built-ins and wainscoting and it can be tough the get the dust out of that inside corner.

So, I'd be interested to know the answer too.

I work on a lot of old junk, err, historic homes, excuse me, slipped there......

Anyway..... It is not uncommon to see old handbuilt door/drawers with the bottom rail beveled, I imagine for just the reason that you mentioned. I have done that myself on shaker style cabinets.

[Larry Edgerton]

I did a pile of very similar panels in white oak last summer, minus the panel mold top and bottom. Absolutely elegant and gorgeous....and the largest pain in my rump in recent memory. we had to chisel the corners square, or rather equal from both edges, which a router does not create. Joy. I don't care for the style pictured but its very close to something I consider wonderful.

I had to do a bunch with a reverse Ogee which a router cant do. They were larger, on columns, so I made a jig that had a 90 degree base that straddled the corner and ground a HSS router bit to cut it sideways. Worked really well. If you ever have to do it again I saved the jig but you probably get my drift anyway, you usually do.

Larry

[Mike Berrevoets]

Interestingly, I just had a request for quote for this style:


That's Exactly what the boss wants although just an eased edge instead of a chamfer around the outside.

And that picture brings up an opportunity to ask about the top drawer rail width. I like the wider rails and stiles but also the 5 panel drawer fronts. Not a problem on the larger lower drawers but the shallower upper drawer ends up with a sliver for the middle panel. I see in that example they narrowed up the rails and kept the stiles the same width. I think in some mass production cabinets at the big box stores they make the stiles narrow also on the 5 panel drawers. But then the stiles don't match the door stile width.

to me that picture looks appropriate. To be honest I almost didn't notice the thin rails on the drawer front but I guess that is kind of the point right? But my question..... If I'm going to have all drawer lowers is there any reason not to have deeper top drawers? It wouldn't be standard and maybe that is a bad thing but I sure hate when I pull out the cooking utensil drawer and the tongs spring open and jam the drawer. Plus I could make the rails a little closer in width and still have some center panel.

[Peter Quinn]

I had to do a bunch with a reverse Ogee which a router cant do. They were larger, on columns, so I made a jig that had a 90 degree base that straddled the corner and ground a HSS router bit to cut it sideways. Worked really well. If you ever have to do it again I saved the jig but you probably get my drift anyway, you usually do.

Larry

Sounds like a "lambs tongue", those are beautiful. I'd love a pic of that jig if you ever have time, I scratched a few things trying to find an automated way to plow all those chamfers in an automated fashion, became faster to just make a chisel guide and do it. One room had 450 stopped chamfers. What I remember is that it hurt, and once installed the ones way up gave the optical illusion of being at different heights depending on perspective, the archifreak called it out, our man put some pretty precise measuring instruments on it to show him all the chamfers were in fact at the same height and angle....damndest thing, perfect on the bench, really looked off in the air when they occurred every 12"-14" apart. The lambs tongue columns sound great.

[Peter Quinn]

Interestingly, I just had a request for quote for this style:

https://bellmontcabinets.com/media/styles/Whistler_MapleNatural_Flat-zoom.jpg

We did some similar doors last summer, but subtly different. From the flat they took a 1/8" drop, then a roughly 30 degree chamfer, followed by an 1/8" drop to the panel. Its one of my favorite sticking profiles. I like the ones shown, do they have a drop to the panel from the chamfer? Seems really hard to deal with if they don't.

[J.R. Rutter]

No step/drop. I have an old set of Freeborn cutters that came out of Decortative Specialties, a big door plant in CA. They have about a 22.5 degree chamfer and are in Tantung. Last time I used them, I didn't have any issues, but this shallower bevel in the pic will leave more of a knife edge. Yes, should be "interesting" if they go for it.