Looking to a metal engraving machine

[Josh Jackson]

My sawmill friends,

I've seen a lot of metal engraving posts and commentary in regards to using Thermark and Cermark. However, my customers have consistently inquired about metal engraving. What is the best option for metal cutting AND engraving?

I currently own a 30W Epilog CO2 engraver and have become better with CorelDraw so it would be beneficial to have a system that utilizes that.

Epilog does have a Fibermarks, but they suggest that they only cut into 'thin metals'. There are some galvos that look promising (Boss, Trotec), but they don't have much information on their performance and capabilities. I'm also not familiar with how great their 'bang for the buck' is. I don't really want to go into a plasma cutting system, and if I must I can get a rotary but will need the same amount of recommendations and advice.

I also would like at the very least an 18"x24" bed like my 30W and rotary.

My customers are wanting lighters, custom firearms parts, metal mugs, metal backs for iphones, handcuffs (yes, handcuffs), cufflinks, and watches.

Thank you.

[Bill George]

What are they willing to pay for the metal engraving? Enough to justify a machine?

[Josh Jackson]

Considering the amount of inquiries I keep getting from current and potential customers I think it would very much be worth justification. I'm well engrained with multiple firearms communities, friends with alcohol connoisseurs, and military.

I'm more comfortable around the $50k-$60k range, but if it can meet/match my demands of cutting and engraving then I'd be willing to go up towards $100k.

[Tim Bateson]

Both Epilog & Trotec have Very good Fiber machines. This is the same reason I just bought the Epilog M2. The need for Firearm engraving is increasing faster than any other work I do.

[Kev Williams]

Metal engraving ain't for the faint. Very few engraving shops actually do any actual metal engraving.
I'm talking rotary tool engraving, not diamond etching. Anyone can diamond etch--

The biggest problem with metal engraving is you can only engrave a few linear inches and your tool's chipped or worn or otherwise won't cut right.
Engraving tools are single edged cutters, and they simply don't last long And I've used carbide tools exclusively for 40 years.

I engrave logos into many Glock slides for a local gun shop. The logo takes about 2 minutes to engrave, and I have to re-sharpen the tool after each slide.
The sharpening takes as long as the engraving.

Stainless is no fun at all. Right now I have a single ID plate for a 30,000 gallon storage tank to engrave, it has about 30 'boxes' and 200 characters on it.
I'll have to sharpen the tool twice just to finish it. It's about a 40 minute job. In plastic or aluminum it would be about 6 minutes.

Aluminum is easy enough to engrave. But ANY metal requires the use of oil, flood or mist cooling while engraving.
I have flood cooling set up on 7 of my 9 machines. It's messy, problematic, but necessary.

And you have to learn the use and non-use of depth gauges. Customers like consistent depth engraving, but they don't
particularly care for the scratches depth gauges can leave behind. "Free-air" engraving is do-able, but getting what you're
engraving flat to the machine within .002" isn't easy.

I like the "how much are they willing to pay" question. EZ answer: Not enough. Everyone's a crybaby when it comes time to pony up.

And--what do you tell your customer when you find you've engraved "Congratulations Neil 2015" instead of "Congratulations Neal 2014" on his $2200 Browning Citori shotgun?

Not for the faint!

That all said-- If you've got the wherewithal to stick with it and fight off the inevitable frustrations, metal engraving can be very rewarding.

Me, I'm looking at getting a fiber just to cut back on some of the tooling I have to do...

[Josh Jackson]

Both Epilog & Trotec have Very good Fiber machines. This is the same reason I just bought the Epilog M2. The need for Firearm engraving is increasing faster than any other work I do.

I saw the M2 and was tempted with the dual capability, but I am looking for good heavy engraving and cutting. Their new eView looked very helpful as well. Please let me know how it goes and the quality and depths please!

[Josh Jackson]

Metal engraving ain't for the faint. Very few engraving shops actually do any actual metal engraving.
I'm talking rotary tool engraving, not diamond etching. Anyone can diamond etch--

The biggest problem with metal engraving is you can only engrave a few linear inches and your tool's chipped or worn or otherwise won't cut right.
Engraving tools are single edged cutters, and they simply don't last long And I've used carbide tools exclusively for 40 years.

I engrave logos into many Glock slides for a local gun shop. The logo takes about 2 minutes to engrave, and I have to re-sharpen the tool after each slide.
The sharpening takes as long as the engraving.

Stainless is no fun at all. Right now I have a single ID plate for a 30,000 gallon storage tank to engrave, it has about 30 'boxes' and 200 characters on it.
I'll have to sharpen the tool twice just to finish it. It's about a 40 minute job. In plastic or aluminum it would be about 6 minutes.

Aluminum is easy enough to engrave. But ANY metal requires the use of oil, flood or mist cooling while engraving.
I have flood cooling set up on 7 of my 9 machines. It's messy, problematic, but necessary.

And you have to learn the use and non-use of depth gauges. Customers like consistent depth engraving, but they don't
particularly care for the scratches depth gauges can leave behind. "Free-air" engraving is do-able, but getting what you're
engraving flat to the machine within .002" isn't easy.

I like the "how much are they willing to pay" question. EZ answer: Not enough. Everyone's a crybaby when it comes time to pony up.

And--what do you tell your customer when you find you've engraved "Congratulations Neil 2015" instead of "Congratulations Neal 2014" on his $2200 Browning Citori shotgun?

Not for the faint!

That all said-- If you've got the wherewithal to stick with it and fight off the inevitable frustrations, metal engraving can be very rewarding.

Me, I'm looking at getting a fiber just to cut back on some of the tooling I have to do...

Kev,

The retooling is my concern. Currently this is a growing business. (2 years on the back burner) So my time spent retooling would make things difficult. That's why lasers are more appealing to me versus the blade and drag methods.

That is very helpful information though, I didn't realize you had to resharpen every pass. True, the depth with all curves is something that I've just found to deal with until I can afford one of the factory style big boys units that goes with the curves.

I've even seen water cutting units, but there's a lot of water volume and grey water return. I have frustrated some customers with double checking the spellings and design, but very much been worth it.

[Matt Geraci]

Considering the amount of inquiries I keep getting from current and potential customers I think it would very much be worth justification. I'm well engrained with multiple firearms communities, friends with alcohol connoisseurs, and military.

I'm more comfortable around the $50k-$60k range, but if it can meet/match my demands of cutting and engraving then I'd be willing to go up towards $100k.

I'm in the same boat you are right now, albeit, sounds like your customer base is larger. I sandblast engrave exclusively. Lots of work on firearms, metals, and even etching on stainless... recently lost a firearm engraving contract to a guy with a laser. My prices were too high, mostly due to intensive prep work and clean up blasting requires. I do mostly one-off designs, process is slow; although my depth and detail are great. I am looking towards doing more production and a laser solution -- eyeballing the dual source machines... but cost is my worry. I know I'll have customers but uncertain I could make up my investment in a reasonable amount of time. I'm also a 1-man-shop with a "real" day job, so a laser cost justification is in the works...may be soon... may be the retirement gig down the road...? Thanks for posting would love to follow your search for an answer.
Matt

316408316409316410

[Kev Williams]

That's really cool... but sandblasting is just one of those things I'll never get into.

As for firearms, I'm about tired of the stress. Thankfully, someone else around here is taking some of my business. Guns are 'babysit' work, meaning I can't do anything else if I'm doing guns, and with my workload I HAVE to keep several jobs and machines going at the same time. And the more guns I do, the more stupid stuff people think of they want me to do to them. Case in point, an AR lower with a magwell shaped like a skull. I'm supposed to mill out the eyeballs and jawbone on both sides, plus I have to stencil cut text clear thru. Plus several other words on each side. This is going to take me 3+ hours, and when I tell them I'm going to need $200+, I'm going to get flack.

And as I mentioned above-- what if I screw it up??

The money doesn't cover the stress...
http://www.engraver1.com/gifs/nilly.gif

[Keith Winter]

Josh you mentioned Galvo and also needing a 18"x24" bed. Those two requirements are at complete odds right now unless you buy a high end industrial machine. Also you mention cutting metal, that is really an expensive thing to get into, $100k+.

I encourage you to contact Trotec or visit a show to see one of these in action. The Galvo is really impressive, very fast, BUT it does not move, it is stationary. So if you want to go the Galvo route you aren't going to get a 18"x24" bed that you can move up and down like a more traditional fiber laser. The way you expand the field of vision on a Galvo is with a larger lens, I think the Trotec you mentioned it tops out around 6" or 8" if there is no curve what so ever to the object. You'd have to talk to them for the exact specs.

Now the standard fibers do come with a bed like a traditional co2 laser and the head moves around the bed. They are slower than the Galvos but they give you a larger work area you can move around in.

As far as the cutting of metal. You can cut with lower watt machines but it's going to be painfully slow. You need a very powerful (and expensive) laser to cut the metal efficiently. Not sure what your budget is but talk to the big three Trotec, Epilog, and Universal if you're really serious they can recommend something that will meet your needs I'm sure. If they don't have it then you'll need to go industrial.



My sawmill friends,

I've seen a lot of metal engraving posts and commentary in regards to using Thermark and Cermark. However, my customers have consistently inquired about metal engraving. What is the best option for metal cutting AND engraving?

I currently own a 30W Epilog CO2 engraver and have become better with CorelDraw so it would be beneficial to have a system that utilizes that.

Epilog does have a Fibermarks, but they suggest that they only cut into 'thin metals'. There are some galvos that look promising (Boss, Trotec), but they don't have much information on their performance and capabilities. I'm also not familiar with how great their 'bang for the buck' is. I don't really want to go into a plasma cutting system, and if I must I can get a rotary but will need the same amount of recommendations and advice.

I also would like at the very least an 18"x24" bed like my 30W and rotary.

My customers are wanting lighters, custom firearms parts, metal mugs, metal backs for iphones, handcuffs (yes, handcuffs), cufflinks, and watches.

Thank you.

[Keith Winter]

Slightly off topic, but quick story Kev. Multiple times over the past 10 years, I've had to much demand for a product or service that was marginally worth my time, which took time away from jobs that were bringing home the bacon. Much like your firearms business were you cannot seem to keep up with demand. Earlier in my career I took all of them, worked crazy hours, and barely made squat to show for it. Now when I have a marginally, profitable repeat type job such as your firearms business, I increase the price over the course of a couple months, until the demand and price reach the equilibrium point at which my staff and I can keep up with it and it's worth my machine time. Customers are happy because we are no longer backlogged, and I am happy because I'm not working double shifts anymore, and I'm getting much more per piece than my initial price making it now worth my time. This also helps pay for new equipment when it's needed; when I was doing jobs so cheap before, I could not afford to pay for the equipment I needed to keep up with the jobs.

My point is, its ok to let some business go if other business is bringing home the bacon. Just set a price at which it's "worth" your time AND your machine's time. You might do half the deals, but get a lot more $$ per deal and end up making around the same $ but putting less hours in. :D


That's really cool... but sandblasting is just one of those things I'll never get into.

As for firearms, I'm about tired of the stress. Thankfully, someone else around here is taking some of my business. Guns are 'babysit' work, meaning I can't do anything else if I'm doing guns, and with my workload I HAVE to keep several jobs and machines going at the same time. And the more guns I do, the more stupid stuff people think of they want me to do to them. Case in point, an AR lower with a magwell shaped like a skull. I'm supposed to mill out the eyeballs and jawbone on both sides, plus I have to stencil cut text clear thru. Plus several other words on each side. This is going to take me 3+ hours, and when I tell them I'm going to need $200+, I'm going to get flack.

And as I mentioned above-- what if I screw it up??

The money doesn't cover the stress...
http://www.engraver1.com/gifs/nilly.gif

[Dave Sheldrake]

Have a look at Yamazaki Machine Tool (Mazak) at $100k you are getting into the intro level of industrial lasers with multi kilowatt outputs (BIG CO2 will engrave metals with no real problem, it's only the smaller *home user* CO2 machines that won't)

Vytek moving bed Galvo systems are also starting at around that price point (400 x 400 work area with a bed that moves to give 1600 x 1600 is available to order from them)

[Mark Greenbaum]

Engraving on firearms requires FFL from ATF. Otherwise you may be facing time and fines in Federal Penitentiary. I do hand engraving but not on firearms, because I cannot get the FFL due to my location (working out of studio in my house). Tread those waters cautiously, because FBI can do a call and ask for engraving, and if you answer yes they may show up and want to see your FFL.

[Dan Hintz]

Engraving on firearms requires FFL from ATF. Otherwise you may be facing time and fines in Federal Penitentiary. I do hand engraving but not on firearms, because I cannot get the FFL due to my location (working out of studio in my house). Tread those waters cautiously, because FBI can do a call and ask for engraving, and if you answer yes they may show up and want to see your FFL.

You would be wrong, of course... this subject has come up plenty of times in the past, and hashed and rehashed. There are very specific conditions that have to be met before engraving a "firearm" (a very loose term, I might add) requires an FFL.

[Josh Jackson]

Mark,

I appreciate your comment. Sadly, everyone who is familiar with the topic 'that shall not be named'. For that I will leave to other forums and request no one to continue commentary on it. This is NOT the purpose of this question.

As a side I know the laws and regulations and my limits enough to say I can do what I am saying I want.

Thank you for the concern though.