A electrical question!

[Wade Lippman]

A friend owns a small property on a lake. A public road runs through his property. A cable goes from his house to a tree, and then to another tree on the other side. There it goes to a small shed that used to house the pump that drew water from the lake for his house before he went on public water. (As I write this, I don't know how the water got to his house; I doubt it went through the trees. I will have to check on that.)

I presume running the cable through the trees over a road is illegal. Might it have been legal years ago when it was installed? If so, would it still be acceptable? If so, could it be run from the shed to where he wants it on his dock?

If it is accessible and goes under the road, could a cable be put through the old water pipe?

Aside from the issue of legality; would it be preferable to put a GFCI on an outlet at the lake, or on a breaker in his house? Both, neither?

He is in a rural community where code enforcement is lax, but electrocution still hurts.

[Jim Koepke]

With all the variables, any answer anyone here is able to offer is likely to be wrong.

This is why a local professional electrician would be the best to ask.

jtk

[Lee Schierer]

Generally speaking, it is not a good idea to use trees to support electrical lines. Trees sway and will put added stress on electrical lines. I would highly recommend a GFCI on any electrical line near water. Since this is a public road, he is open to some significant liability should someone be injured by his electrical line.

[Wade Lippman]

Of course there should be a GFCI, but at the panel or at the first outlet?

[Tom Stenzel]

In the book Standard Wiring for Electric Light and Power by H. C. Cushing (1912), there's an ad for the Dunton Tree Insulator. One of the patented features was the "Swinging arm allows for motion of tree." Also the "Wire ties in solid to glass".

In the distant past hammering wires to trees *was* considered acceptable. In the less distant past it isn't for the reason Lee gives plus the sap of a tree is conductive. Trees are less predicable about breaking in a windstorm. Although the way that phone poles have been breaking and replaced in my area recently the trees may have been a better bet!

;)

-Tom

[Mike Henderson]

Of course there should be a GFCI, but at the panel or at the first outlet?

It would be safer at the panel.

Mike

[Julie Moriarty]

A friend owns a small property on a lake. A public road runs through his property. A cable goes from his house to a tree, and then to another tree on the other side. There it goes to a small shed that used to house the pump that drew water from the lake for his house before he went on public water. (As I write this, I don't know how the water got to his house; I doubt it went through the trees. I will have to check on that.)

I presume running the cable through the trees over a road is illegal. Might it have been legal years ago when it was installed? If so, would it still be acceptable? If so, could it be run from the shed to where he wants it on his dock?

If it is accessible and goes under the road, could a cable be put through the old water pipe?

Aside from the issue of legality; would it be preferable to put a GFCI on an outlet at the lake, or on a breaker in his house? Both, neither?

He is in a rural community where code enforcement is lax, but electrocution still hurts.

A public road runs through his property. Is this pertinent to the goal(s) you are trying to achieve? In other words, does the tree-supported wire run over the road? Have you checked the insulation where it contacts the trees?

Most likely, the tree-hung wire was installed by a former owner w/o inspection or building department approval. I've seen this on cabin feeds in Wisconsin.

If by some chance the tree-hung cable was approved, then it's probably as legal now as it was when it was approved.

Other questions I have is what is the size of the cable? What is the amperage of the breaker feeding it? And, of course, what is it you are trying to achieve?

[Phil Thien]

A public road runs through his property. Is this pertinent to the goal(s) you are trying to achieve? In other words, does the tree-supported wire run over the road? Have you checked the insulation where it contacts the trees?

Most likely, the tree-hung wire was installed by a former owner w/o inspection or building department approval. I've seen this on cabin feeds in Wisconsin.

If by some chance the tree-hung cable was approved, then it's probably as legal now as it was when it was approved.

Other questions I have is what is the size of the cable? What is the amperage of the breaker feeding it? And, of course, what is it you are trying to achieve?

Funny because I was just about to talk about upper Wisconsin.

I spent most of my summers in Door County/up-north Wisconsin. Back then phones were party line and there was plenty of electricity run on trees. I even know of 220 run on trees which I think is a little nuts because 220 seems to greatly increase the danger factor if something DOES go wrong. I even know of trees that had switches wired on them which would switch outdoor lights and receptacles. It was the way things were largely done in areas around lakes. Underground wasn't a real good option, there was water everywhere.

[Wade Lippman]

Yeah, it is #14 UF run over the road.

He uses it now with an extension cord to power a hoist. He wants to put an outlet in by the hoist and add a couple lights.

It is a rural community and they are pretty informal. (I put on a small addition and insisted the contractor get a permit and inspections; the contractor didn't think it was necessary. The inspector never went into the basement to look at the new circuit)

In the unlikely event it was approved years ago; would moving the outlet invalidate that?

[Phil Thien]

I presume running the cable through the trees over a road is illegal.

I imagine it depends on how it is installed. With a suitable witness cable (that is the steel rope suspended between support structures, which supports the conductors), at a minimum height, properly insulated at the trees, yada yada yada, I imagine it would get signed off on.

I recently inquired about crossing railroad tracks with a communications cable and was given guidelines and was put in touch with a person that would answer all my questions. All they really cared about was height, and proper installation. Oh and identification.

I ended up not doing it and shot wireless instead. But it was all doable.

[Steve Kinnaird]

Upstate NY, I grew up in South Western NY and my Dad had a place on Cuba Lake.
Code, LOL, was not even considered, let alone done.

[Julie Moriarty]

Yeah, it is #14 UF run over the road.

He uses it now with an extension cord to power a hoist. He wants to put an outlet in by the hoist and add a couple lights.

It is a rural community and they are pretty informal. (I put on a small addition and insisted the contractor get a permit and inspections; the contractor didn't think it was necessary. The inspector never went into the basement to look at the new circuit)

In the unlikely event it was approved years ago; would moving the outlet invalidate that?

With #14 as a conductor, if the is run over 100' you will probably have voltage drop problems. In the long run, it may burn out the hoist motor. Don't tell anyone I told you this ;) but based on what you've said so far, you can run a "temporary" line (think maybe #10 AWG) through the trees and to the hoist and add some receptacles. You could spruce it up by lag bolting insulators into the trees and hanging the UF off them by wrapping solid wire around the insulators and then wrap the cable with it. There will be some give as the branches move and the bark of the trees won't abrade the insulation. Some "temporary" lines are only temporary in relation to the age of the earth. :rolleyes: Just make sure your grounding is solid.

The hoist may create problems with a GFI breaker. You may have to use a standard breaker (20A max) and install GFI receptacles at the dock. It beats the present "extension cord plugged into a receptacle fed by #14 wire".

As to using the old water pipe as a conduit, it's possible as long as there are no fittings in the run (like 90 or 45 degrees).