Help with US Navy rank

[Rick Potter]

My dad was in the Navy in WWII, and spent most of the war in San Diego Naval Base as a draftsman of some sort. Before he died, he told us he had some special rank/assignment, that precluded him from going to sea. He said he was offered a couple promotions, but turned them down so he could stay in San Diego with Mom and me, in our apartment that was one half of a small garage.

He very much wanted his proper rank on his grave stone at Riverside National Cemetery, but they could not find the proper records. I recently found his separation papers, and they list him as having held the following ranks: SF3c; SF2c; and Sp(X)ED2c. Before his death he mentioned that very few people had this special rank, but he never said why. There were a lot of draftsmen.

The separation paper lists him as Sp(X)2c ED V-6 USNR. His marker at the cemetery reads .....PO2 WWII USN

Can someone explain these ratings to me please, as well as the USNR. As far as we know he was in the regular navy. Was everyone put in the reserves for a while after the war?

Thank you,

Rick Potter

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Rick....Enlisted ranks start as an E-1 and progress to E-9. At paygrade E-4, they become petty officers (PO). An E-4 is a PO-3, an E-5 is a PO-2, an E-6 is PO-1, an E-7 is a Chief Petty Officer, an E-8 is a Senior Chief Petty Officer, an E-9 is a Master Chief Petty Officer.

SF is the designation for a Ships Fitter. Sp (X)2c ED is a Specialist Engineering Draftsman.....so your Dad was an E-5, Specialist Engineering Draftsman when he got out. But as an E-5 he was a PO-2. Check out this link for further information: http://www.cv6.org/company/muster/organization.htm

So here's the way it works for enlisted personnel. They have a rank or pay grade and a rating. Rank is E-1 through E-9 and the associated PO designations. Their rating designates what their job specialty is or was. Ships Fitter or Specialist Engineering Draftsman, for example.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I am not sure for enlisted personnel how the USR, USNR. Maybe Glenn Clabo or Lee Schierer can shed some light.

[Howard Garner]

USNR - Reserve

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Howard,

What we are trying to differentiate between USN and USNR......what makes that difference?

[Jerry Bruette]

USN is active duty and USNR is reserve duty. Although you can also be active reserve status.

When I enlisted it was for 4 years active, USN, and 2 years inactive reserve duty, USNR.

Inactive reserve duty means no monthly or yearly duty activities.

Back in the late 70's and through the 80's the Navy had three types of enlistments.
6 years active.
4 years active and 2 inactive reserves
3 years active and 2 active reserve and 1 inactive reserve

Every enlistment was for 6 years but could be made up of any of the above combinations. I don't know if it's still the same now or not.

[Lee Schierer]

Ken got the rating correct.

USN is regular Navy on active duty.
USNR is Naval Reserve, which can be active or inactive. Active reservists have to attend drills at least once per month for 4 half days and they get paid. They also have a 2 week active duty each year and also get paid. They also accumulate points toward retirement pay which if they qualify they will receive starting at age 60 for the rest of their life based on their highest achieved rank or pay grade and the number of points they have. They also qualify for paid medical once they reach retirement age.

When you retire you get to be USN (ret)

Inactive reserves are subject to recall if the country goes to war, but do not have to go to drills or annual training duty, nor do they accumulate points toward retirement pay and collect no additional money for their services.

E-1 to E-9 and pay grades for enlisted members. Their rating is their work specialty. Their rank is a Seaman Recruit (E-1), Seaman, Seaman Apprentice, Petty Officer 3rd class, Petty Officer Second Class, Petty Officer First Class, Chief Petty Officer, Senior Chief Petty Officer or Master Chief Petty Officer (E-9). There is also one Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy which is a special rank.

Officers have pay grades O-1 to O-10

I was an O-6

I hope this helps.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Thanks guys!

That was the way I remembered it but it's been 39 years since I got out.

There was what I remember referred to as military statutory obligation of 6 years. When you enlisted in the USN, you had an obligation for 6 years that could be served in various combinations of USN and USNR time.

[Mark Blatter]

Perhaps he was transferred to the reserves after being released from active duty. Obviously many were simply discharged at the end of the war, but he might have been transferred to reserves due to his special rate.

[Rick Potter]

Thanks so much, guys. I used Ken's link and understand it pretty well now. I even found the patch on his uniform listed there.

I also found a posting saying that starting in December '42 all volunteers for all services were put in a pool, and drafted as needed, by whichever service needed them. Dad joined in April 42, before I was born, while he could still choose the Navy.

As an aside, my Uncle joined the RCAF before we got into the war ('39 I think). He went to England, where he flew Spitfires in the Battle of Britain. When the US got into the war, he was told he had to join the US Army Air Corps, or lose his citizenship. He also flew out of India, and against the Japanese, protecting truck convoys on, I think, the Burma Road. At the end of the war, he flew transports for Nationalist China, until the Communists under Mao took over. Recalled during Korea he taught pilots, and stayed in Germany until the Berlin Air Lift was over.

Thanks again

[Tom Giles]

Enlisted sailors have rate where commissioned officers have rank.

[David Helm]

During WWII enlisted rates only went to E-7. E-8 and E-9 were added during the early 1960s. All enlisted men who get out after only one hitch are transferred to Inactive Reserve till the 6 years is up. Even though I was Regular Navy for 4.5 years, when separated was transferred to Inactive Reserve. The discharge then was from USNR.

[Rich Riddle]

An enlisted sailor has both rank and rate, as do officers. Your rank is you pay-grade, it's that simple. Your father would have been an E-5 so a second class petty officer. There is nothing special about that rank as many sailors have it. However, his rate would be his job or occupation while in the navy. That can be very special indeed and sounds as though it was.

Many times particular jobs will only allow service members to occupy a particular range of ranks. For example, you might find someone who is a basic avionics technician. He can occupy that rate through a second class petty officer or sergeant (in another service). Once he gets promoted to E-6, he has to transition to avionics supervisor or something similar. Many folks of a certain rate love their jobs and refuse promotion to the next rank because it comes with a different job (rate) they don't like. Can't really blame folks if they are doing it to refuse becoming bogged down in administrative paperwork.

[Wade Lippman]

My understanding is that in WWII those who were in the Navy before the war and Annapolis graduates were USN. Those who entered the navy during the war were USNR. After the war some USNR were allowed to enter the USN.
My FIL was in the navy for 4 years of active duty during the war, and his discharge papers say USNR. He never had any part time activity.

[Phil Thien]

I imagine a skilled draftsperson was enough to keep anyone from seeing combat, no?

My father served during the Korean war and had to complete a checklist at one point. One of the items on that checklist was whether he could type. He could (fast/accurate, he had a degree in journalism), and ended up pretty much stationed in Japan during the war.

[Mike Cutler]

I was an O-6

So uhhhm, can we start calling you "Cap", or "Skip". :D

Sorry the E5, submariner, in me came out for a minute there.;)

[Ken Fitzgerald]

So uhhhm, can we start calling you "Cap", or "Skip". :D

Sorry the E5, submariner, in me came out for a minute there.;)

Those "Bubbleheads"!;):D

[Barry Richardson]

Seems his marker is correct, aside form the esoteric extra designations that have came and went over the years for navy ratings, he was a PO2 USN.

[Dave Anderson NH]

There were indeed esoteric Navy ratings that have gone away. My mother passed away in early December and I got to look at her discharge papers. She was a Specialist Q 2nd class. Under duties it lists, "duties of a technical and highly specialized nature" She was a cryptographer,.

[Rick Potter]

Thanks again, folks. I really appreciate the depth of knowledge in the creek, and especially the willingness to share it.

Rick P

[Phil Thien]

There were indeed esoteric Navy ratings that have gone away. My mother passed away in early December and I got to look at her discharge papers. She was a Specialist Q 2nd class. Under duties it lists, "duties of a technical and highly specialized nature" She was a cryptographer,.

Yeah and there are seventeen agencies comprising the "intelligence community." The Navy has the ONI.

Would those affiliations be necessarily indicated on discharge papers?

I would think you wouldn't indicate someone was part of the ONI on their discharge paperwork but I really don't know.

[Bill Neely]

During WWII enlisted rates only went to E-7. E-8 and E-9 were added during the early 1960s. All enlisted men who get out after only one hitch are transferred to Inactive Reserve till the 6 years is up. Even though I was Regular Navy for 4.5 years, when separated was transferred to Inactive Reserve. The discharge then was from USNR.

1958 for E-8 and E-9, I joined in 1960 and there were Senior and Master Chiefs around then. My father in law was a draftsman for the Navy, 1st Class Petty Officer, before and after the war he an architect.

[Rich Riddle]

1958 for E-8 and E-9, I joined in 1960 and there were Senior and Master Chiefs around then. I would have guessed senior chiefs and master chiefs roamed around with dinosaurs. Many look like it.

[Mike Cozad]

I would have guessed senior chiefs and master chiefs roamed around with dinosaurs. Many look like it.
Some actually are, lol. Back when I was a Chief, I remember one time we were in the of an operational reactor safety exam and a Chief needed to eat early since he was on the drill team. The E-5 cook wouldn't serve him because it was ~10 min early. The Chief of the Boat happened to walk through the mess decks at the same time and heard it. His head spun around and he peeled that poor cooks head like a grape. He said, and I quote "IF A CHIEF SAYS HE NEEDS TO EAT THEN THE CHIEF NEEDS TO EAT!! CHIEFS ARE THE CLOSEST THING TO ROYALTY THE NAVY HAS. SO GET BACK THERE AND GET THAT CHIEF SOMETHING TO EAT!" I remember it like it was yesterday for 2 reasons. 1st, I never considered myself royalty. 2nd, I hoped I never turned out crusty and nasty like that. Now that said, the COB and I were buddies, but let's just say he and I didn't see eye to eye on how young sailors should be treated...