Why is this so

[Rey Johnson]

Back in 1984 when I was in the fifth grade, the teachers drilled two things into our heads:

1. By the year 2000, everything in the US would be measured using the metric system, no exceptions.

2. Under no circumstances, ever, should you use improper fractions.

Just looking around in my shop, I see almost nothing measured with the metric system and I now see my wood sizes being measured with improper fractions. I have a 5/4 peice of something or other.

Boy, did my public school miss the mark in these math areas.

Really though, any real reason why the boards are being listed as 5/4 instead of 1 1/4?

[Randy Meijer]

Simple and less room for mistakes. 1 1/16 might be be mistaken for 11/16 if written carelessly??

[Don Baer]

someone on a thread sometime back said that the older saw mills were set up so the the sawyer had a lever and when he would move the lever the lumber would move over in 1/4" incriment. Thus if you wanted to cut a board 1 " thick he would move it over 4 times. Thus 4 4's or 4/4.

[Keith Burns]

The way our public schools are now, it's a wonder they can tell time.

[John Hemenway]

The way our public schools are now, it's a wonder they can tell time.

With digital clock only. Don't try it with analog! :eek:

[frank shic]

rey, i got so upset when i cut 3/32 instead of 3/16 two weeks ago that i've replaced all my former measuring tools with metric/english (tape measure, adhesive fence ruler, folding ruler). i must say that for all of the metric system support we've heard going through school in the united states, you would think they would make it a little EASIER to find appropriate measuring tools! my recent purchases were from THREE separate sources: oregon rule, forestry suppliers (?!?) and home depot. now to get used to cutting 5cm wide rails and stiles!!!

[Chris Padilla]

Rey,

I don't recall such statement from 5th grade (1980 for me) nor from 9th grade (1984 for me) but as I entered engineering in college, all we used was the metric system.

Now working, I'm back to inches or mils (0.001 inch) instead of millimeters or micrometers (microns).

As far as improper fractions, we often used 22/7 to represent the number pi in school however we were always taught to REDUCE our fractions whenever possible. 5/4 is less writing than 1 1/4 and somewhat sexier if you ask me. :)

For a while, I was reducing the written cents section on checkbooks (just to keep my mind thinking) but my bank asked me to stop! A couple of times their clerks would just use the numerator and not pay attention to the denominator and things got a little funny then.... :D

[Steve Cox]

If I recall correctly the "official" change over date for the US to metric was 1976. I'm still waiting. It is interesting to me that all my wife works with is metric (nurse) and when I was doing electronics all my measurements were metric (wavelength etc) but we still measure distances by the length from Henry VIIIs nose to his upturned thumb (yards) or from Charlemagnes heel to his toe (feet). Metric makes so much more sense.

[Matt Meiser]

Someone should tell the people at 5/3 bank:

https://www.53.com/images/header/logo.gif

[Dan Racette]

I think that if you travel you will not find a lot of miles or miles per hour signs.

I used to work on an Israeli system and measured everything in MM and converted back and forth routinely. I think if an individual decided he/she wanted to use metric, you certainly could. I make my daughters aware and practice both systems. (celsius-farenheit, mm-in, miles-km).

the big problem is communicating specs. I know that working abroad with manufacturing it is often best to communicate specs in both. That way the manufacturer can chose the best system. Alot of manufacturing machinery has only metric on it, and vice versa, so since alot of the specs are in programs like autocad, you can simply output what you need.

I prefer metric for alot of things. but will listen to and communicate both if necessary.

As far as lumber, according to dear old dad, it isn't fractions, it is quarters, and it is just written to look like a fraction. My dad says that sometimes they didn't use a line, it was just a five on top of a four.

yeah, I remember the metric guy. Everything was based on the dime. We had all these classes about it. My teachers hated it and said they hated it the entire time. Oh well. Lots of us forget what we learned in school!

d

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Try carrying 2 set of tools....to work on a CT or MR or x-ray machine......some of it's metric....some of it's SAE.......Get a new piece of equipment....buy some more tools.........I won't mention the expense of buying non-ferrous tools in both denominaitons.....

[Norman Hitt]

If I recall correctly the "official" change over date for the US to metric was 1976. I'm still waiting. It is interesting to me that all my wife works with is metric (nurse) and when I was doing electronics all my measurements were metric (wavelength etc) but we still measure distances by the length from Henry VIIIs nose to his upturned thumb (yards) or from Charlemagnes heel to his toe (feet). Metric makes so much more sense.

............and it probably/hopefully won't EVER get changed over til all the other "Old F^&!$", like me, (who won't EVER change over to metric for WoodWorking) ;) , die off, and hopefully, I'll be around for some time yet. :D :D

PS: I'm not into this "Politically Correct" thing Either. :)

[Roger Everett]

Sometimes you gotta go with the flow.
I remember when I was I high school ( late fifties- early sixties ), there was some talk about pay tv ( cable) !!!!!! NO WAY DUDE who would ever pay for whats free.
And buy water !!!! GET REAL it's a god given thing. Now there's more brands of yuppie water then you can shake a stick at.
And for other more mature guys-- Other than Buck Rogers or Flash Gordon or Tom Corbet and the Space Cadets, did you think in your life time, anyone would land on the moon.
Roger

[Keith Outten]

............and it probably/hopefully won't EVER get changed over til all the other "Old F^&!$", like me, (who won't EVER change over to metric for WoodWorking) ;) , die off, and hopefully, I'll be around for some time yet. :D :D

PS: I'm not into this "Politically Correct" thing Either. :)

I agree with Norman :rolleyes:

[John Seiffer]

The way our public schools are now, it's a wonder they can tell time.
I recall a story of a son saying to his dad: "Is it true when you were in school they told you to hide under your desk in event of a nuclear attack?"

When the dad replied "Yes," the son asked, "Is this the same school where you got the rest of your education?":D

[Rey Johnson]

I've gone metric in some respects just because I have alot of Festool's stuff. But I am nowhere near being a metric person. Even when my rulers, etc. have both measuring systems, I tend to go with inches and feet.


As for the 5/4 measurement on the board, increments of 4ths makes sense.

I won't hold my breath for the 'kilometers per hour' speed limit signs though.

[Lee DeRaud]

I recall a story of a son saying to his dad: "Is it true when you were in school they told you to hide under your desk in event of a nuclear attack?"

When the dad replied "Yes," the son asked, "Is this the same school where you got the rest of your education?":DWell, now I'm depressed: I remember the "duck and cover" drills.:eek: :(

[Michael Gabbay]

5th grade in 1984! Man when I was in 5th grade they had not invented the ruler, or measuring in metric, or imperial! When I was in 5th grade we had to take rocks and measure things. We had to cut wood with rocks, we had to hammer with rocks, we had to carve and turn with rocks! And I had to walk to school (both ways uphill barefoot over rocks and broken glass)! :D

Geez! Next you are going to tell me that you never used a slide rule! :eek:

Actually, I prefer metric but for woodworking it's hard to get used to. For all my mechanical stuff I try only to think in terms of metrics and its a lot easier.
Mike

[Lee DeRaud]

And I had to walk to school (both ways uphill barefoot over rocks and broken glass)! :D Must be younger than I am: they didn't even invent glass until I was in high school. We did have rocks, but I think they were just the beta test versions.:cool:

[Frank Hagan]

I do remember having to learn how to use an abacus ... never figured out why, except that it probably had more to do with world history than it did with math. And duck and cover was drilled into me, as well as what to do if the school principal drove by with the Civil Defense sign in his window.

First time I saw a blimp I thought the world was ending.

As to the metric system, it was one of our engineers who converted the temperature rise across a heat exchanger on a boiler as -7 C, making the first ever gas-fired appliance that cooled water by building a fire underneath it. (The error was in taking the fahrenheit temp, 20 F, and converting it to a -7 like you would the ambient temperature. Most of the calculators out there assume that's what you are going to do.)

[Bill Fields]

I'm all for the logic and ease of the metric system. My concern is the unknown but substantial cost in dollars, lost efficiency, errors (some fatal-many costly).


All my engineering work is in metric--all my woodwork is still in inches.

BILL FIELDS

[Bart Leetch]

I've always found it interesting how there are or were some people that would try & force someone to change to another type of measurement system. WHY?

What difference does it make as long as we all end up with the same thing that is the same dimension in all ways say a dresser or dining room table.

[thomas prevost]

How many remember the 'slipstick'? I mean slide rule. WE all had one When I went to college.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

How many remember the 'slipstick'? I mean slide rule. WE all had one When I went to college.

Thomas......I've got one in a desk drawer where I'm setting. I actually pull it out about once a year and try to remember how to use it. I have a brief case in my company van with a scientific calculator...the last time I needed it for work the batteries were dead. More often I use the calculator on my company work laptop..........

[russ bransford]

we'll go metric when gas is sold by the liter, because the price of a gallon is too high.

do you think the wood will know it's supposed to expand and contract in mm instead of inches?

RB

[John Hemenway]

I've always found it interesting how there are or were some people that would try & force someone to change to another type of measurement system. WHY?

What difference does it make as long as we all end up with the same thing that is the same dimension in all ways say a dresser or dining room table.

I do think there are good reasons to use the same measurement system worldwide. We might not like it that it's not OUR system, but the change would be good once we (read old foggies here) get use to it.

Advantages: less confusion and mistakes converting back and forth. Economy of scale not having to produce multiple versions of the same item.

Two examples come to mind.

The language of avation is English. All control towers are supposed to speak English, all pilots also. How confusing would it be to have Farsi pilot and Mandarin CT?

A 'done wrong' example: There are three (at least) video standards in the world. NTSC -USA and Japan, PAL - most of the world and SECAM - France. Would it be less confusing if only one 'standard' existed? Would AV equipment be less expensive if Mitsubishi only had to make PAL? As they say in 'Fargo', "you betcha"! :o

Yes there would be expense and confusion as we convert. Would there be savings long term to offset the short term issues? IMHO, 'You betcha'!

[Lee DeRaud]

I do think there are good reasons to use the same measurement system worldwide. We might not like it that it's not OUR system, but the change would be good once we (read old foggies here) get use to it.

Advantages: less confusion and mistakes converting back and forth. Economy of scale not having to produce multiple versions of the same item.As near as I can tell, there is no "multiple version" problem that doesn't exist for more fundamental reasons than measurement systems. If a Toyota sold in California is different from a Toyota sold in England, it is not because they had to replace all the 6mm bolts with 1/4".

If you want a real commonality problem to tackle, try getting all the metric-using countries to drive on the same side of the road.:p

[Joe Judge]

Ugh - the memories:
1974, sitting in the 4th grade in Danville, OH ... learning the metric system.

I don't want metric -- I want the jet packs & hover cars we'd all be using here in the future.


-- joe

[Norman Hitt]

"

If you want a real commonality problem to tackle, try getting all the metric-using countries to drive on the same side of the road.:p

This brings back a comical, but true thing I remembered. One of the Countries I used to fly into, which country fails my memory (but somewhere in either Africa, India or the Middle east), anyway they announced that to be compatible to the country adjoining them, on a certain date there would be a switchover from driving on the left side to the right side of the road.

Well.......the date came, the switchover was made, but after a very short time, they switched back to the original side. I asked if it was because the drivers couldn't get used to it, and they said no, that wasn't the problem. It seems that a large quantity of the shipping of goods in that area was still done by camel trains and the camels had been going the same route their whole life, from the time they were babies just following their mothers.

When the camels came to the border, they automatically switched to the other side of the road, and they apparently had tried everything they knew but just couldn't retrain the camels, and it was causing too much traffic disruption and accidents.

[Larry Norton]

Roger, I was thinking the same thing yesterday about buying water. Even funnier, you have to pay for air at convenience stores!


Larry

[Bill White]

Ken was talking about different tool sets for different equipment. I, at one time, had US, metric, and WHITWORTH tools. The whitworth set was for working on British motorcycles.

[Ed Blough]

I actually never understood the problem, or perhaps I did every body wanted to do conversions. Obviously if your working from plans, recipe or whatever that is in one base you have to convert to the other. But that is not where most people got tangled up with conversions.

They would go to the grocery store and look at a 2 liter bottle and make themselves crazy trying to convert that into quarts. Why? If you wanted about a quart buy the 1 liter for a half gallon buy the 2 and so forth.

I knew a guy that built everything for scratch and decided he was going to convert. When he designed he built in full inches and used sizes that were pleasing to his eye. I watched him trying to convert 2 inches in 5.08 Cm and asked him why he didn't just use 5 it was close enough visually to 2 inches. He looked at me real funny and tried it soon he was back in full production and wasn't doing conversions.

If you hand me something that calls for 10 cm board I'm going to look for a rule that measures in cm. I would never convert it into 3.937 inches and work from there.

[Martin Hart]

Aren't sheets of plywood metric in thickness but Imperial in width and length? hence the "thin" 1/4" sheets.

[Michael Perata]

While it would be nice to have a worldwide standard, and metric would be just fine, it is more important to teach our kids how to use the system we currently have.

In the 80's I hired a young kid to do rough carpentry. It was probably his second or third job at best. I asked him to cut a 6x18 glulam to length - 17'6".

He promptly and proudly returned in about 10 minutes saying the job was done. I got the crew together to lift the glulam above the wall and immediately discovered the kid had cut it to 176", 34" short.

This kid graduated high school the year before. :confused: I will agree with those of you who'll come back and say "well if you had asked the kid to cut the glulam 5.33 meters, you may have had a different result", but...

[JayStPeter]

Ken was talking about different tool sets for different equipment. I, at one time, had US, metric, and WHITWORTH tools. The whitworth set was for working on British motorcycles.

That's not so bad ... as long as you know which set to bring for which vehicle. My motorcycle is the only vehicle I own that I know will only need one tool set.
Back in the '80s (when I was in high school), I used to be able to identify SAE bolt sizes on my car just by looking at them. In the '90s when I raced motorcycles, I became proficient at identifiction of metric bolt sizes. But whenever I get to my truck or minivan, all bets are off. Both (Ford and Chrysler) are around 75% metric, so I start there. But it's really frustrating. Plus I have to haul out all my tools that used to be separated into a car toolbox and a motorcycle toolbox. This usually leads to multiple trips into the basement to get the particular tools I forget to bring out. :rolleyes:

Jay