Which 16" jointer?

[Mark Gibney]

I'm looking at two used 16" jointers, both for about the same money, $3,500 approx, plus maybe $500 for the truck rental / gas 315959315960to get it to my place.

One is a 1959 Wotan (German) machine, 3 phase, 220 volt.
The other is a late 1980s (the owner thinks) EMA (Italian?), I don't know the electrical.

That's all the information I have right now on these machines. They are both a couple of hours drive away and so I haven't seen them.

The alternative is a new General International with a helical head. If I got a used machine I'd consider changing the head to a helical in the future, and that's maybe $1,500.

Any insights and opinions very welcomed.

thanks!

[Mike Henderson]

I'd probably go with the EMA from the pictures. You can use the machine quite well with the existing blades and make the decision to go to a helical head later, if you think it's worth it.

I don't know EMA so I don't know its reputation.

Mike

[Phil Thien]

I'd go with whichever one includes a guard. Yikes.

[Mark Gibney]

Ha! Just noticed that.

[Andrew Hughes]

If they both have flat tables and a good fence system.I pick the one with the largest diameter head with hopefully a 20 degree hook angle.

[David Kumm]

Best tables and largest diameter head. If one had oil bath bearings I'd take that as a plus but guess neither will. The GI will not be in the build class as either of those. Dave

PS Wotan is Tersa. I'd take that over helical on a jointer. Dave

[Mark Gibney]

All good info. I've read many discussions about Tersa v helical, and in all probability I'd stick with whatever head is on the machine for many years to come.

Does anyone have any opinion on which make has a better reputation? And is the price range good for a used machine?

[John Donhowe]

Don't know anything about either of these machines- way above my pay grade. Just have to say, though, that "Wotan" (German for "Odin") is by far the cooler name. Why can't tool makers today come up with great names like that? As names, "Jet" and "Grizzly" don't come close, and "Powermatic" and "Craftsman" sound just plain wimpy, IMO :D

[Peter Kelly]

The other is a late 1980s (the owner thinks) EMA (Italian?), I don't know the electrical.EMA was a Canadian company that at one time owned Casadei (http://www.casadeibusellato.it/it/home_home_2) (now part of SCM Group (http://www.scmgroup.com/en)).

Parts may be somewhat more available than the other jointer. Both seem like good choices though.

[Mark Gibney]

It's great that I can get all this info from you all. That way when the motor seizes up I can say "look, honey, it was these guys said to buy it."

Overall are these machines most likely a better machine than a new General International? or dare I suggest a new Grizzly?

[David Kumm]

Older jointers are some of the best machines to buy used. Build quality, cast iron, grinding tolerences, bearings, and motors were far superior. Equivalent build today would be about 10-12k for cast iron base and 7-8K for steel base. Dave

[Rick Fisher]

If either has a Tersa head, I would grab it and leave it as is.. I own and use a 12" Griggio with a Tersa head and prefer it to a Helical for a jointer. If I get a nick from a staple or whatever, I slide a single knife over 1mm and its gone. Having said that, if it was helical, it would be fine too.. Its just not that big a deal on a Jointer. My other jointer is a 16" Griggio which is being restored.. I priced out both Byrd and Tersa .. In this case, Byrd is way cheaper .. so I'll go Byrd, but again, I wouldn't care if it was Tersa.

As far as parts go ... I'm not sure what parts you would expect to be buying .. If the machine is complete, it could need bearings and V-Belts.. otherwise it will be like trying to wear out the bucket on a dump truck ..

[Jim Andrew]

Just looked in my Grizzly catalog, a 16" extreme series jointer, 5hp with straight blades is 4350, plus 255 shipping, while the helical head same jointer is 6495 plus 255 shipping. Only thing I can imagine wearing out on a jointer is the bearings, blades, belts. Unless it has been dropped out of a truck.

[Peter Kelly]

Overall are these machines most likely a better machine than a new General International? or dare I suggest a new Grizzly?My vote is for the EMA/Casadei but I don't think there's any question that either of these machines are better choices than the aforementioned Chiwanese ones.

Can always add a Suva Guard if you felt the need for it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ft6MFmjmzhc

I believe Martin USA sells them.

[Mark Gibney]

Peter, that looks like a real good guard. Only thing is it sticks out on the side where I would walk with the board past the cutter. I'd like to see it and try it sometime.

Can I ask you why you like the EMA? - is it that they have a good reputation, or is it because it's newer? or something I don't even know to ask?

[Peter Kelly]

The Suva Guard folds down so it's out of the way when you aren't using the full length of it.

As a matter of fact, Casadei has an excellent reputation! I grew up near the original pre-EMA US distributor (Byrnes Company) and used a fair number of their machines before I had my own shop. Always impressed with the build quality and mass of the machinery. The one in the photo above looks very clean.

Also a newer 1980s-era machine is also less likely to have Babbit metal bearings and has almost certainly had less wear in general. You'd probably want to see each in-person though.

[David Kumm]

I've been looking at both types on the net and really like what I see. I'm partial to cast iron base jointers and the Tersa head on a cast iron base is very rare to find. Peter is correct though that condition is most important. Look at the tables and put a good straight edge across the width. If the tables are planed, look to see the lines go all the way across and you will see where the wear is. Look at the frame size on the motor. Older Euro motors will have a larger frame size. Big deal if buying used Euro and the newer small frame motors are expensive to rewind compared to large. I think the Wotan runs at about 5500 rpm which means the head has to be balanced well. There should be no vibration at all when either runs. Look for a segmented gaurd as they were often used. Some look kind of like the SUVA in the video, others look like a porkchop only segmented. My favorite. The more I look, the more I like. I have a Porter or I'd be all over that Wotan. Dave

PS No jointer built after about 1930 will have babbitt bearings. Dave

[Jim Becker]

Peter, that looks like a real good guard. Only thing is it sticks out on the side where I would walk with the board past the cutter.


With a wide jointer surface, there's no need to have the fence "forward" and a properly fitted Euro guard will not be sticking out and in your way. The guard should be sized appropriate for the width of the jointer bed. For example, my J/P has a full width cut of 350mm (~13.65") and my guard is just wide enough to cover that fully with the fence all the way to the back of the machine. I never use the fence when face jointing and quite often skew the material slightly to the cutter head, too. (I have Tersa knives)

On the jointer choice, I'd probably select that EMA over the older machine because it's newer.

Now...I just saw your thread about getting a wide planer, too. You may want to consider a 16" J/P to cover both functions and in a more compact space as long as you can accept 16" width for both functions.

[Phil Thien]

SUVA guards are great, I had one on my Inca. With wide stock (arguably the most difficult to manage), the SUVA doesn't extend past the jointer at all, but the pork chop sure does once the stock is past the cutterhead.

[Jeff Duncan]

EMA was a Canadian company??? Huh, that I did not know.

I do however have an EMA jointer made in Italy and as mentioned basically a poor mans Casadei/SCM. They're good well made machines just not as polished and precise as their more expensive cousins. I like European machines in general and it's no exception…..would certainly trade it if a Martin came available for less than the cost of a new car, but it does it's job. The other maker I have no knowledge of at all. I also like German machines, but just haven't heard of them.

good luck,
JeffD

[Mark Gibney]

I bought the EMA 16" jointer for $3,800 and the seller threw in an Excalibur sliding table attachment for my Unisaw. Pretty happy with the jointer - thank you all for your opinions. They help a lot when it comes to spending that kind of money!

[Larry Edgerton]

Another nice machine! Congrats

Larry

[Peter Kelly]

EMA was a Canadian company??? Huh, that I did not know.

I do however have an EMA jointer made in Italy and as mentioned basically a poor mans Casadei/SCM. They're good well made machines just not as polished and precise as their more expensive cousins. I like European machines in general and it's no exception…..would certainly trade it if a Martin came available for less than the cost of a new car, but it does it's job. The other maker I have no knowledge of at all. I also like German machines, but just haven't heard of them.

good luck,
JeffDI believe EMA was a holding company based in Montreal and production was still done at the original Casadei Macchine factory in Rimini (some machines are actually badged with both "EMA" and "MC"). EMA folded in the 90s and Casadei was eventually sold off to Busellato (http://www.casadeibusellato.com) which was had been bought out by SCMI.

Prior to all that, some family members left and founded Casadei Industria (http://www.casadei-industria.com) as well so there's actually two separate Casadei machinery companies out there...