Before the leap?

[Shanan Smith]

Hello,
So, this week is a big one for me. I will be choosing my first laser system. I have narrowed it down to 3 and I am sure you can guess which companies! Universal, Epilogue and Trotec.
-if you could give me any words of wisdom before I jump, what would it be? I think I've read every post on here and am still just as stressed as the day I started my research. Some seasoned guidance would be an absolute blessing.
thanks,
Shanan
P.S. The laser will be used for an awards/trophy/engraving shop I am purchasing.

[Walt Langhans]

Hi Shanan!

There are all kinds of threads that address that question on the site, you just need to dig a little bit. But in short, they are all good lasers, the key will be narrowing down the costs vs the features that your going to need. I don't do engraving so I can't help you there, but just make sure that you have a worse case scenario in your business plan and a way to pay for the laser if things don't go well. Lot's of people get a laser for the engraving business only to have it repoed a few months later becasue they couldn't make the payments.

Hope that helps some!

[Scott Marquez]

Congrats on the new business.
Do you have prior experience with lasers?
What drawing program are you going to use?
What size table are you interested in, and how much power do you need?
The folks here are very helpful, I recently purchased my first laser and I'm glad I spent a bunch of time here first, I almost made a very expensive uninformed decision.
The lasers you mentioned are high end and have pros and cons, so it is really important to have an idea of what kind of work you will be able to bring in the door to make the payments.
Best of luck,
Scott

[Dave Sheldrake]

Congrats on the new business.
Do you have prior experience with lasers?
What drawing program are you going to use?
What size table are you interested in, and how much power do you need?
The folks here are very helpful, I recently purchased my first laser and I'm glad I spent a bunch of time here first, I almost made a very expensive uninformed decision.
The lasers you mentioned are high end and have pros and cons, so it is really important to have an idea of what kind of work you will be able to bring in the door to make the payments.
Best of luck,
Scott

very much so....seen a lot of new companies start up...make bad choices and vanish just as quickly :(

Hi Shanan,

What materials are you looking to engrave on to ?

[Mike Null]

Welcome to SMC. Any of those brands will serve you well for that business. I do the same kind of thing without trophies and with more concentration on the commercial aspect.

I am a solid Trotec fan after using the other brands you mentioned. It is such a reliable piece of equipment. I used it 7 years before I lost a day to maintenance. In the 8th year I replaced the tube so I was down a week but now in my 9th year that's all the down time I've had.

In other words when I was ready to work, so was the Trotec.

[Ross Moshinsky]

Trotec Speedy 100 with a 50 watt tube. There will be times when it is a bit small or underpowered but overall in the awards industry you probably will be doing objects around 6x8 or 12x24.

[Shanan Smith]

Thanks Scott!
Here are the answers:
total noob with lasers
Illustrator, Photoshop, Corel Draw (I have a design background, worked for Boeing for 14 years)
24 x 12 table will suit my needs best and I'm thinking 50 watt would be a good fit for my needs.

I really appreciate your comments and guidance!

[Shanan Smith]

Hi Dave - this will be used as a backup to the rotary engravers I currently have, 3 Dahlgrens. I will also be doing a lot of metal marking, and paper products. Bring stretch I know!

[Shanan Smith]

Thanks Mike! I have noticed you and your postings, you're located in the STL area as well, I'm out in suburbia :)
I'm committed to making a decision this week, Trotec is still very much in the running but I am finding them about 3k more than the other two for about the same machine. That's a pretty big gap and not sure one I can be okay with..

I look forward to getting to know everyone here in the coming months!

Shanan
(I don't have a signature set up yet)

[Shanan Smith]

Thanks Ross, Trotec really seems to be a favorite on this board. Very interesting.

You are correct that most of what I will be doing is no bigger than the 12x24 - I am just wondering if buying 'up' with the thought of future business is wise or a mis-step?

-Shanan

[Shanan Smith]

Hi Walt.... Now I'm terrified! What if this is a wrong move? Oy, my stomach hurts.

I'm ready to hustle. I hope I can make this happen. The business I am purchasing has been owned by the same people for 34 years and they have made a really nice living, without advertising or expanding the business offerings. I will retain the business she has always done and work hard at getting new clients in the door. The rest is a wing and a prayer. I'm glad participation medals are so popular right now :)

Wish me luck Walt!
Shanan

[Ross Moshinsky]

Thanks Ross, Trotec really seems to be a favorite on this board. Very interesting.

You are correct that most of what I will be doing is no bigger than the 12x24 - I am just wondering if buying 'up' with the thought of future business is wise or a mis-step?

-Shanan

We purchased our first laser in 2005/6 for awards and engraving and the 12x18 footprint was fine 80% of the time. Dealing with laminated plastics, it was inefficient more often than not. 12x24 will fit the majority of what you're doing. Long term, bigger and more power is advisable but based on your posts, I wouldn't recommend it.

I have concerns about the business you're purchasing. No awards business should have 3 Dahlgren machines and 0 laser engravers. That means that business is a minimum of 10 years behind the time in their equipment and likely 20+. Very few people are running awards businesses with rotary engraving as their primary machines. Before I post too much, are the current owners also the owners of the property/building the business resides in?

[Mark Sipes]

I'm committed to making a decision this week, Trotec is still very much in the running but I am finding them about 3k more than the other two for about the same machine. That's a pretty big gap and not sure one I can be okay with.. Shanana

The TROTEC is the BMW Model vs the Chevy & Ford -- personal opinion........mine has been running for 15 years with one recharge and an X-axis motor....

Software is top notch. a BIG +

I have 2 Newing Hall Rotary Machines 55% of my Jobs are Laser.... 20 are sublimation and 25% are rotary.

Size wise I laser 12 x 24 sheets all day long.. but hard to engrave a silver baby cup on a laser...cyl-rotary...

Once customers find ot you have a laser.....the jobs find you... I laser for 2 other business that do not have lasers.....easy money. they prepare the art and material...

Have fun ! and WELCOME.....

[Jeffrey Dewing]

Welcome to Sawmill Creek.I have a Trotec, Speedy 300, 80 watt and love it. The more you read up on it and use it, the more you realize how good the built in software is that comes with the machine.You're going to pay more money, but I wouldn't trade mine for any other machine. It's my first laser, and I feel confident I made the right choice. Trotec support is great as well!

[Keith Winter]

Congrats on the new busienss Shanan!

One thing you mentioned here that I think changes the conversation quite a bit. This reads to me like you're only going to use it for metal and paper. Those are really two different machines. Yes you can buy a combo but there really isn't much of a cost savings vs buying two machines and you loose the efficiency of being able to do two things at once if you just but a fiber/co2 combo machine vs two machines, one fiber/yag one co2.

Can you give us a better idea of the work load and percentages for each you will be doing? Also the types of metal and examples? For instance coated metal that you burn off the top layer works in many instances for co2 lasers. Also there are sprays/wipe ons that can help you do metals with co2 lasers but it's slower than a device designed to do metal. Are you up for learning two different machines and engraving techniques at once or are you wanting to start with co2 or fiber/yag first?

Finally to throw my 2 cents in for what it's worth. Epilog and Trotec are the two best built, universal is ok too a nice machine, but not as progressive as the others in many aspects. However universal sometimes has very attractive pricing at shows. Trotec is my favorite though, I cannot say enough good about them. I love our Trotecs! :D


Hi Dave - this will be used as a backup to the rotary engravers I currently have, 3 Dahlgrens. I will also be doing a lot of metal marking, and paper products. Bring stretch I know!

[Mike Null]

Shanan

If you'd like to visit my shop send me a pm and we'll set it up. I'm actually in Ballwin.

[Bill George]

Since your new to lasers but not to designing, I would look for one of the three name brands that has the best service and parts if needed in your area. A 50 or 60 watt machine would work best as you have already figured out.

[Paul Phillips]

Finally to throw my 2 cents in for what it's worth. Epilog and Trotec are the two best built, universal is ok too a nice machine, but not as progressive as the others in many aspects. However universal sometimes has very attractive pricing at shows. Trotec is my favorite though, I cannot say enough good about them. I love our Trotecs! :D
Keith, have you ever had an opportunity to use a Universal? My decision to buy one was based on what I saw hands on at a sign convention, comparing Universal vs Epilog, (I knew Trotec was the best, but cost a bit more and took them a month to respond) for me it was the software that sold me, it was much more in depth and intuitive to use that the Epilog IMO. Hardware wise I would say they are very close in build quality, that was back in '09 though so maybe Epilog has come a long way since then?

[Keith Winter]

Hi Paul,

I've only demoed them, and the software on the universal I've never played with much. Appeared to be similar to epilogs software when I saw it in 2013 and then epilog updated there software in 2014-2015 to add some features. I haven't seen the universal software since early 2013, may have been improved. Of the three I think most people would agree Trotec has more advanced software than the other two, if you use the features. If you won't use all the features of the Trotec software than that advantage is negated.

As far as build quality if you look at the universal the drive Trains do not appear to be as robust as epilog and Trotec. This is based upon my demoing of the machines, looking around inside them in 2013 and again 3 months ago at nbm and posts on the forum I've read about the drive train. Additionally the universal is not as well sealed from dust on the interior. Side panels on the interior are lacking from what you see on the epilog which adds a few panels and the Trotec which has a fully enclosed interior. The sealed nature does not affect performance I would not think, but your components will get more dirty and may require more cleaning.

Finally engraving speed I think the Trotecs are roughly 30% faster than the Epilog or Universal, I'm sure someone here can chime in with the exact %'s but it's somewhere near there. This of coarse only matters if you have enough power to run it full speed. So for a 50 watt you really won't see much advantage if any. When cutting no real advantage on speed. Moving on up in wattage depending on what is engraved you will start to see advantages. Lastly initial velocity, a minor category but one that may be considered for busy shops. The epilog is painfully slow starting then getting faster when you move the red dot pointer around to line up jobs, universal is faster, Trotec even a little faster. Also startup movement to the engraving area and between engraving areas is much faster on the Trotec. Those little movements 5-10 seconds at a time add up to real time over the course of a week!

All in all, all three are very nice machines with subtle differences. I don't think you can go wrong with any of the big three.

[Shanan Smith]

Hi Keith and thanks for the welcome.

im kind of a weird industry crossover, the laser will be used primarily for the usual awards, trophy and engraving but I am setting up a special online sales that, if it takes off, will be done with paper. I am also an NRA Intructor and have an opportunity to do markings on AR receivers as well as an occasional wood buttstock. So, you are correct in that what I will be doing with the laser is varied but I think I will be able to do it all with a 50 watt machine. I hope?

[Shanan Smith]

I would love that, I will pm you this weekend. Thanks Mike!

[Shanan Smith]

Thanks Bill, that is exactly where I have landed. Thought I made my choice but reading everyone's comments - I'm right back on the fence.

[Bill George]

Its also interesting to note, the used ULS machine I purchased ran for years in an industrial setting. It had one function in life as I understand cutting special gaskets for a major company in the Twin Cities. The dealer I purchased it from sold them another new ULS machine and totally rebuilt the one I purchased, replacing all moving parts as motors, pulleys, belts and etc. So if it was good enough for a production line, I'd think it would be good enough for anyone to use.

The ULS tube recharge the last time I checked was only $1200 plus shipping and this is done at the factory.

[Ross Moshinsky]

Hi Paul,

I've only demoed them, and the software on the universal I've never played with much. Appeared to be similar to epilogs software when I saw it in 2013 and then epilog updated there software in 2014-2015 to add some features. I haven't seen the universal software since early 2013, may have been improved. Of the three I think most people would agree Trotec has more advanced software than the other two, if you use the features. If you won't use all the features of the Trotec software than that advantage is negated.

As far as build quality if you look at the universal the drive Trains do not appear to be as robust as epilog and Trotec. This is based upon my demoing of the machines, looking around inside them in 2013 and again 3 months ago at nbm and posts on the forum I've read about the drive train. Additionally the universal is not as well sealed from dust on the interior. Side panels on the interior are lacking from what you see on the epilog which adds a few panels and the Trotec which has a fully enclosed interior. The sealed nature does not affect performance I would not think, but your components will get more dirty and may require more cleaning.

Finally engraving speed I think the Trotecs are roughly 30% faster than the Epilog or Universal, I'm sure someone here can chime in with the exact %'s but it's somewhere near there. This of coarse only matters if you have enough power to run it full speed. So for a 50 watt you really won't see much advantage if any. When cutting no real advantage on speed. Moving on up in wattage depending on what is engraved you will start to see advantages. Lastly initial velocity, a minor category but one that may be considered for busy shops. The epilog is painfully slow starting then getting faster when you move the red dot pointer around to line up jobs, universal is faster, Trotec even a little faster. Also startup movement to the engraving area and between engraving areas is much faster on the Trotec. Those little movements 5-10 seconds at a time add up to real time over the course of a week!

All in all, all three are very nice machines with subtle differences. I don't think you can go wrong with any of the big three.

Paul. Your comparison between ULS and Epilog are not very accurate. The ULS software compares more to the Trotec's than the Epilog. Epilog is very much the traditional print driver. ULS is very much the printer server style. Nothing meaningful has changed since 2013. Epilog added a software feature which basically recalls what settings you used for a particular job. That's about the only major update between the two companies. As far as build quality, they are similar from what I could tell. Speed is similar too.



Its also interesting to note, the used ULS machine I purchased ran for years in an industrial setting. It had one function in life as I understand cutting special gaskets for a major company in the Twin Cities. The dealer I purchased it from sold them another new ULS machine and totally rebuilt the one I purchased, replacing all moving parts as motors, pulleys, belts and etc. So if it was good enough for a production line, I'd think it would be good enough for anyone to use.

The ULS tube recharge the last time I checked was only $1200 plus shipping and this is done at the factory.

I wouldn't agree with this either. I like my ULS a lot more cutting than I do engraving. In fact, I'd say I'm less than impressed with the ULS's engraving and that's shame on me since I tested them all. My LS100 is significantly faster and puts out better work than the ULS. In the next few weeks I'm going to have to really figure out why the ULS isn't putting out the quality I'd like so I'm not ready to pass complete judgement, but I'm less than impressed at the moment.

[Ross Moshinsky]

Shannon, 12x24 and 50W will take care of a vast majority of the jobs that walk into your door. This is when you'll want a bigger table.

1. Customer supplied items. On the smaller machines, the Z height and the table size is often just too small. If a good opportunity comes up, sell the small machine and buy the bigger machine.

2. Custom perpetual plaques. You'll have organizations come in and want something custom and it makes life a lot easier when you can throw it on the machine and have it mark all your holes.

3. Large production runs.

4. Sheet goods & signs. You'll typically find no machine is big enough when doing signs unless you have a big boy CNC. Someone will always want something 14x18 or 20x32 or 30x42 and it just won't fit.

I will say again, I'd have real concerns about buying a business that I'd project is 20+ years behind the times. I hope the price you're purchasing the business for reflect the business is running off essentially valueless equipment. As Mark said on the other page, most awards businesses are using the rotary engravers to do the minority of the work load. I'm across the country and I found his numbers to ring very true to me. Sublimation and the laser are necessary in this industry to remain competitive and have a proper price structure. By running their whole business on old equipment that are less and less relevant, that means that their business standards and practices are essentially ancient. I hope your purchasing price reflects this and is not based on their standard or living. I'd also closely evaluate their books and how they pay themselves and how they pay the rent. When the business owner is also the landlord, you must look at the books carefully. It's very possible that a majority of their current salary is actually income from the rental and it's simply not presented that way.

[Jeanette Brewer]

As Mark said on the other page, most awards businesses are using the rotary engravers to do the minority of the work load.

Shanan,

I agree with Mark & Ross on this. The majority of the work done at most awards businesses is done with lasers but there will always be a place for rotary/computerized/mechanical engravers. There have been several articles in the trade journals on this topic but there's one in this month's Recognition Review you (and others) might find interesting.

I'm not trying to sell you anything -- you're not in our territory, sadly :( -- but my experience, having sold lasers for over 20 years, would be to tell you to buy the biggest table & the highest wattage that fits in your budget. I completely understand that the most important words in that sentence are "...fits in your budget..." and I agree that the 12x24, 50 watts you have mentioned will be more than adequate for most of what you will do with your new laser.

Having said that, though, I have never (with one exception when the largest laser we sell wouldn't fit through the customer's door!) had a customer come back to me, saying they wish they had bought a smaller table/lower wattage system. I've heard the opposite sentiment (wish they'd bought bigger/more powerful) too many times to count.

Again, I'm not trying to sell you anything but you asked (somewhere back in this thread)! :)

[Paul Phillips]

[QUOTE=Ross Moshinsky;2433395]Paul. Your comparison between ULS and Epilog are not very accurate. The ULS software compares more to the Trotec's than the Epilog. Epilog is very much the traditional print driver. ULS is very much the printer server style. Nothing meaningful has changed since 2013. Epilog added a software feature which basically recalls what settings you used for a particular job. That's about the only major update between the two companies. As far as build quality, they are similar from what I could tell. Speed is similar too.
Ross, I think you meant to address Kieth on this, and this is what I was trying to explain, Kieth was saying that he thought the Epilog was a better machine than the ULS, I disagreed based on my comparison of the two, I concluded the ULS was a better machine, he concluded the opposite, but to clarify, I would say the Epilog and ULS are very close in build quality with the ULS having the edge in software, obviously the Trotecs are a step above everyone so I'm not even comparing that. I believe Steve has said several times that after having owned all three brands, he thought the ULS software was better than the Epilogs, the ULS belts need to be changed every few years, not sure about the Epilogs, I know they have an encoder strip that has to be cleaned regularly, ULS doesn't use the encoder strip, that doesn't necessarily make one better than another, I guess it mostly comes down to what's right for you, there are plenty of loyal users on both sides and they are both good machines. Just my opinion though FWIW.
Oh yeah, BTW, welcome Shannon, sorry, didn't meant to hijack your thread!

[Keith Winter]

[QUOTE=Ross Moshinsky;2433395]Paul. Your comparison between ULS and Epilog are not very accurate. The ULS software compares more to the Trotec's than the Epilog. Epilog is very much the traditional print driver. ULS is very much the printer server style. Nothing meaningful has changed since 2013. Epilog added a software feature which basically recalls what settings you used for a particular job. That's about the only major update between the two companies. As far as build quality, they are similar from what I could tell. Speed is similar too.
Ross, I think you meant to address Kieth on this, and this is what I was trying to explain, Kieth was saying that he thought the Epilog was a better machine than the ULS, I disagreed based on my comparison of the two, I concluded the ULS was a better machine, he concluded the opposite, but to clarify, I would say the Epilog and ULS are very close in build quality with the ULS having the edge in software, obviously the Trotecs are a step above everyone so I'm not even comparing that. I believe Steve has said several times that after having owned all three brands, he thought the ULS software was better than the Epilogs, the ULS belts need to be changed every few years, not sure about the Epilogs, I know they have an encoder strip that has to be cleaned regularly, ULS doesn't use the encoder strip, that doesn't necessarily make one better than another, I guess it mostly comes down to what's right for you, there are plenty of loyal users on both sides and they are both good machines. Just my opinion though FWIW.
Oh yeah, BTW, welcome Shannon, sorry, didn't meant to hijack your thread!

Hi Paul and Ross, I'll lean towards your experience on the software side of the Epilog vs Universal. As I said I've only demoed, and played those two at the shows, I've never used their software in a production environment. Epilog's is (to greatly simplify), a printer driver that saves material settings last time I looked early this year, not at all I what I was expecting from all the marketing and rep talk about their "improved software".

[Paul Phillips]

[QUOTE=Paul Phillips;2434352]

Hi Paul and Ross, I'll lean towards your experience on the software side of the Epilog vs Universal. As I said I've only demoed, and played those two at the shows, I've never used their software in a production environment. Epilog's is (to greatly simplify), a printer driver that saves material settings last time I looked early this year, not at all I what I was expecting from all the marketing and rep talk about their "improved software".
No worries Kieth, I'm more of a visual person so for me the ULS software was more "user friendly" and intuitive to understand. I would love to see a the Trotec software in action some day and see how it compares. If and when I get another machine I would love to have a Trotec, looks like you have the dream setup there Kieth!

[Tim Bateson]

At the Indianapolis NBM show recently I had both the Trotec and Epilog reps run through thier Job Management Software programs. I could find only minor differences and both had their strength and weaknesses.