Door trim question

[ryan paulsen]

We're having a house built, door trim just went in. There are places where doors are on perpendicular walls, adjacent to each other in a corner. The doors are the same size, however, the top casings of each door are not even with each other. Most are probably 1/4" different. Trim guy says the only way to fix it is to adjust the top casing of the lower door to match the other, but that would make the reveals different. Since the doors are the same size, shouldn't the tops line up? Am i missing something here? Figured I'd ask the experts here for advice. Thanks guys!

[George Bokros]

Sounds like the doors are not installed correctly. I assume they are sitting just above the same floor so the tops should be level and the casing should be at the same height.

Make them make it right.

[James Tibbetts]

What George said. Either the jambs on one door are taller than the other, (if they are both flush to the floor), or the floor is way out of level. Either way someone needs to do it right!!

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Are both the doors interior doors? Is one door an exterior door and one an interior door? Are both doors exterior doors?

It sounds like the doors weren't installed correctly.

If both the doors are the same height and both the same type (both exterior leading out or both interior opening into another room) , you should be able to measure either from the threshold to the top of the door jamb or from the floor to the top of the door jamb and the measurement should be the same.

[Dave Zellers]

It sounds like these are single rabbet door jambs and the adjacent doors open in opposite directions causing this situation.

[Pat Barry]

Sounds like the framers weren't careful with the rough openings and they figured the finish carpenter would cover up their mistake. The finish guy just followed his procedure and assumed the rough framing was done properly. Classic case of everyone assuming too much. That's the way the sheetrockers I used to know worked - they figured the taper would cover all the mistakes and the painters I know are always complaining that the tapers don't do a good enough job.

[Greg R Bradley]

The FIRST step in PROPERLY install doors is the set the heights so that you find the highest floor and set all the other doors to match that one.

This can fall apart in a remodel of an old house but on a new house the framing gets fixed first.

Sounds like the door installers are completely incompetent. The local quality door supplier has had two clinics showing everyone that desired how to do this quickly and efficiently in the last couple months. Here is an example from the instructor of the last one I attended: http://www.thisiscarpentry.com/2013/08/09/problem-free-prefit-doors/

[Neil Gaskin]

Do you have a picture?

In most cases doors should line up across the top. There are few exceptions to this but none likely regarding two same and similiar interior doors.

[julian abram]

Rough opening out of square, one door elevated slightly during install to compensate, maybe. Just a wild guess, several possibilities, impossible to tell without seeing it. Look at the bottom of the jambs and see if they are sitting on the floor or elevated equally.

[Mike Schuch]

If that is the worst workmanship you can find in your new house you should consider yourself very lucky. "Slap it together and throw it up" is how houses are built! It has been this way for a long time. You can try to fight with your general contractor to get it fixed... but if you succeed he will just take the loss out of some other part of your house. There is no such thing as workmanship anymore... it is just a sorry fact of life.

[Brian W Smith]

It sort of comes naturally to the business.It used to be much more of an apprentice or guild system.Where guys who'd seen it,done it,still got the shovel types would pass on their knowledge to almost anyone who'd listen.And it gets really deep going any further.......with this examination,or possible introspection.

You bascially have a situation where the craftsman,worker,tradesman,whatever......"didn't see it coming".IOW's he failed to anticipate the interference or in this case,the relationship(geographical or not) that two milled surfaces/planes share.Good luck with your build.

Edit to add,the above is most seen around stair systems.....even moreso than millwork,IMO.

[ryan paulsen]

Thanks for the responses so far. The framing was panelized, so it appears to be about as square/plumb/level/accurate to plan as it could get. The doors are all interior, but in one location they do open in opposite directions, and in another one of the doors is double-action. The floors are all the same hardwood. I'll take some measurements and check out where the jambs line up as suggested, and snap a picture next time I'm there. We've been very happy with the quality of most of the trades so far, until the trim guy. This is unfortunate, as this was the guy I had assumed would be the biggest perfectionist of the bunch...

OK, I don't want to turn this into a rant, I appreciate the info and hope to put it to good use. Thanks again.

[Joe O'Connor]

That type of work wouldn't fly with the builder I work for. When I have doors close together I make a level line across the top and set the doors to that, 1/4 inch is too much to compensate for in a single reveal. I would either remove and reset one of the doors or adjust reveals on both. This is trim carpentry 101 I don't think you're out of line to expect them to fix it.

[Jason Roehl]

That type of work wouldn't fly with the builder I work for. When I have doors close together I make a level line across the top and set the doors to that, 1/4 inch is too much to compensate for in a single reveal. I would either remove and reset one of the doors or adjust reveals on both. This is trim carpentry 101 I don't think you're out of line to expect them to fix it.

+1 to this. Those doors weren't hung properly. The head jambs of all doors in a given visual area should be in the same plane. Changing the reveal of the trim is a hack that looks like what dogs leave behind, from their behind.

[Jim Dwight]

Do you know if the doors were pre-hung (supplied as trim, jambs, and doors as a set with mortises for hinges cut and holes for locks drilled) or were hung by the finish carpenter? Pre-hungs are the norm these days. But the jambs should have all been the same. Perhaps they were not and the finish carpenter didn't notice and just installed them (?). Perhaps they were but were cut down by the finish carpenter and cut to slightly different heights? Due to framing? Quite a few unknowns (to me).

To fix them salvaging the existing materials, they will have to be installed at the minimum jamb length. Fixing them depends on how they were hung. In stain grade work, it could be a problem. If it's paint grade, it should be fixable but there will be a bit more caulk or putty to cover up nail holes (hopefully not staples).

Another variable that messes things up is different flooring. Door jamps should go on top of the flooring but if one room has hardwood or tile and the other has carpet, jambs of the same length may sit at different elevations (but don't have to, the one over carpet just needs to be raises to match).

[Peter Quinn]

No good reason for it other than door installer screwed up, wasn't careful, making up BS excuses now to avoid fixing the problem. If one floor is higher the jamb legs need trimming, door bottom gets cut, the tops of all the trim should be in one plane. My guess is either the installer didn't notice or was hoping you didn't notice. Have your GC have them fix it.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Talk with your general contractor. He's responsible for the outcome regardless if it's sub-contractors or contractor's fault. If you are acting as your own general contractor, it's time to take it up with the subcontractor or your finish carpenter.

[Greg R Bradley]

I'm assuming the door trim is installed by the same person that installed the doors. If the trim around the doors is installed by a different person then the problem goes back to the prehung door install.

The person that installs prehung doors goes through and makes sure the framing is acceptable and adjusts as necessary or gets the framers back if something is unacceptable. He then finds the lowest floor in a door opening since you can shorten jambs and doors but generally can't make them longer. Then the doors are installed.

This setting the top of doors also generally sets top of most windows.

The general is responsible for the end result as Ken stated.

[John TenEyck]

There are top notch trim carpenters and there also are hacks, just as in any other trade or profession. The guys that did the trim on a friends house did just an awful job. He and I are planing to someday rip it all out and put up custom oak trim from wood we mill from his property. I built a custom balustrade for his house. I didn't want to do the install because it was 45 miles one way. He said he'd have the trim carpenters install. After we saw their work, we both decided I would do the install. Their trim work makes my balustrade look like a million dollars.

The problem is jobs get competitively bid and someone, not sure if it's the GC or homeowner, or both, are more interested in managing the cost than assuring the quality requirement is communicated properly and enforced if it goes South. It's hard to imagine you would have to specify in the contract that door head jambs "shall all be in the same plane", but it would have eliminated any argument about what the requirement was.

John

[Jim Dwight]

Since you are going to have them adjusting things anyway, you may also want to check clearance under the door, especially in areas where you will want to put a rug. One of my tasks tomorrow is to trim a bathroom door in a condo we just bought because it has maybe 1/4 clearance to the tile bathroom floor. I will check one I trimmed in our house but I'm thinking this needs to be at least 3/4 inch. Not a huge job but it is also something you shouldn't have to do yourself.

[scott vroom]

As others have said, door install was sloppy. But if push gets to shove and the doors aren't reinstalled then you'd want to split the difference on the reveal between the 2 adjacent doors. The trim guy suggesting he'd correct only 1 door by 1/4" speaks volumes for his low quality standard and indifference to customer satisfaction. Are you generaling the job? If not, I'd stop talking to that hack and demand the GC get it fixed...that's his job.

[roger wiegand]

As pointed out below, this won't work. Don't know what I was thinking. :confused:-------------------------------
To fix this I'd probably add a 1/4" board to the head of the door frame to make the opening the same height as the other door. The joint should just be covered by the casing giving you the same final height and reveal.

Yeah, the carpenter should have done better, but re-installing would be fairly painful.

In the old part of our house the doors differed by 1-3" in height-- I just gave up on uniformity when I trimmed them and chalked it up to the charm of old house living. 1/4" might have bothered me enough to do something about it.

[scott vroom]

To fix this I'd probably add a 1/4" board to the head of the door frame to make the opening the same height as the other door. The joint should just be covered by the casing giving you the same final height and reveal.

Maybe because it's late and I'm tired, but I can't get my head around how that would fix the problem. It sounds like adjacent two pre-hung doors were installed at different heights, creating a situation where the top casings, if each installed with a 1/4" reveal, are not coplanar. I am not grasping how adding a 1/4" board to the top of one head (you didn't mention which one) would fix the reveal problem.

But then like I said it's been a hellacious long day and my brain is fuzzy(ier than usual).

[roger wiegand]

No, I think it was my brain that was fried. This morning I don't see how what I said would work. :o Sorry about that.



Maybe because it's late and I'm tired, but I can't get my head around how that would fix the problem. It sounds like adjacent two pre-hung doors were installed at different heights, creating a situation where the top casings, if each installed with a 1/4" reveal, are not coplanar. I am not grasping how adding a 1/4" board to the top of one head (you didn't mention which one) would fix the reveal problem.

But then like I said it's been a hellacious long day and my brain is fuzzy(ier than usual).

[john lawson]

I had this problem in a house I had built. I did the trim and the doors were uneven. I raised the trim to the highest door and then leveled all of them. Unless you want to rip them all out this is the way to deal with it.

You wont see the difference in the reveal when it's painted.

[Jason Roehl]

I had this problem in a house I had built. I did the trim and the doors were uneven. I raised the trim to the highest door and then leveled all of them. Unless you want to rip them all out this is the way to deal with it.

You wont see the difference in the reveal when it's painted.

I've painted thousands of doors and jambs. I would absolutely see the difference in reveal. ;)

[George Bokros]

I've painted thousands of doors and jambs. I would absolutely see the difference in reveal. ;)

I agree, it will noticeable and IMHO UNACCEPTABLE.

[john lawson]

I've painted thousands of doors and jambs. I would absolutely see the difference in reveal. ;)

Sorry, I was referring to normal people, not people who have painted "thousands"

[Jason Roehl]

Sorry, I was referring to normal people, not people who have painted "thousands"

And yet, rank amateur painters (homeowners--"normal people") still nit-pick my work, often inversely proportionally to the amount they're paying, but directly proportional to the value of the structure.

[Bob Grier]

I agree with some others here. Doors and windows should be level at top. This is a given with good builders and craftsmen. Doesn't matter what class home is being built. This is just like studs being plumb (or shimmed plumb) before installing drywall. It is just good construction technique and standard for builders I have worked with.

I do not like listening to excuses and don't like doing business with people who make excuses. Not worth the hassle. Sounds like a builder who would like to save a couple hours labor by not spending time plumbing walls or checking level at top of a few windows and doors. Like said earlier by others, only have to do windows and doors in same view. Does not take more than a few minutes to do it right.

Reset one of the doors. This will take more time than doing it right to begin with but should be easy enough to do. Compromise makes it harder for the next person who has to deal with the person responsible for installing the doors. If you have to compromise, I agree with others that setting the trim to split the reveal would probably be best.

[ryan paulsen]

Thanks for all the advice. I went up to the house to take some pictures of the uneven doors, and they were all fixed. I was pleasantly surprised, maybe there is hope afterall.